Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[GreyCrow]

Fourteenth Batch of missing DOD
*James "Jim" Malone - NthMelb 1945-52 . B: 13/11/1925 Orig club Flemington CYMS. WW2 Army Brother of Jack (Footscray), and Joe
*Joseph "Joe" Malone - NthMelb 1946-47. B: 4/2/1924. Orig clubs Bendigo/ Laanecoorie. WW2 Army Brother of Jack (Footscray), and Joe

A story on the Kangaroos website says Jim was contacted in 2011. An email to them info@ might elicit if they are still alive or not.

Past players Kevin Dynon (vice-captain), Keith McKenzie and Jim Malone were contacted by kangaroos.com.au but couldn’t shed any light on what the trip was about or whether a game was actually played. McKenzie said he felt it was an end of season trip of some description but couldn’t say why they were photographed in uniform while Dynon could only remember being in Hobart two-years earlier for the Interstate Carnival.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thirteenth Batch of DOD

George Lockwood - Geel 1899-1901, Coll 1902-04. B: 6/12/1872 Orig club West Perth. Perhaps died 1946? Twin brother of Teddy

I made a mistake on linking an article on Joe/Tom Marr to a cricket notice in 1918. It was for George Lockwood.

George Lockwood had some small cricket career did he not? I present this paragraph only in the interests of narrowing down a search ( possibly) I note there are no registered deaths of a Geo Lockwood in 1917 nor 1918. I recognise Geo may be registered under another name. Once again I present it for what it is

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93810596

Regret was expressed at the death of
two club members in R. Dowsett and
Geo. Lockwood.

Interesting aside . The Court Robin Hood Cricket Club inserted a notice into R Dowsetts Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155091399

Yet no notice can be found of the club inserting a notice for Lockwood.

 

[GreyCrow]

First batch of Missing DOD for players

Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors

First batch of Missing DOD for players

Henry "Harry" John Barr (b: 11/1/1880) (StKilda - 1898 - 3 games) . From Footscray VFA Juniors

I make no comment on the issues from the other thread but have decided to chase down Henry John as Henry John and let others decide his footballing

As usual chasing siblings helps narrow dates down so I can say as I type that Henry died prior to 1951. His brother James William dies in 1951 and there is a reference to Henry (deceased) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23072041

Before 1946 sister Alice Herbert http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22333657

And so by going through Obits you find the info you want http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203695524 Under Leslie G Barr we see a note for Henry ' lost on the steamship Waratah'

And then this from 1918 gives a date http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1408574 SS Waratah in 1909

The SS Waratah sank in 1909 on the way from South Africa to London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Waratah with the loss of everyone on board. The ship has never been found

 

[the croucher]

I make no comment on the issues from the other thread but have decided to chase down Henry John as Henry John and let others decide his footballing

As usual chasing siblings helps narrow dates down so I can say as I type that Henry died prior to 1951. His brother James William dies in 1951 and there is a reference to Henry (deceased) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article23072041

Before 1946 sister Alice Herbert http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article22333657

And so by going through Obits you find the info you want http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203695524 Under Leslie G Barr we see a note for Henry ' lost on the steamship Waratah'

And then this from 1918 gives a date http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1408574 SS Waratah in 1909

The SS Waratah sank in 1909 on the way from South Africa to London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Waratah with the loss of everyone on board. The ship has never been found

Great detective work ! Using the info you found I have come across this 1909 article which states that Barr joined the crew of the Waratah in Adelaide:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88297841

 

[Harry Hook]

Great detective work ! Using the info you found I have come across this 1909 article which states that Barr joined the crew of the Waratah in Adelaide:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/88297841

Indeed this report of the Register of 5 August 1909 confirms a H Barr was on the ship and goes further and nominates his occupation on the ship

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article56727065

 

[rbartlett]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD

*John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews - Nth 1941 - b:22/10/1914 Orig club Mirboo North

Charlie McCartney - Sth Melb 1897, Ess 1899. b:26/2/1874 Orig Club: West Melbourne

*James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald - Melb 1942 b: 24/6/1916 Orig club: Leongatha. Brother of Alan McDonald who played Richmond 1939-1943, and coached Richmond 1957-1960 (Rhett - I'm seeing if the Richmond Museum has a contact for the McDonald family who could assist)

Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald - Ess 1918-19 b: 27/3/1897 Orig club: Yarraville Brother of Frank

Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald - Coll 1897, Carl 1901 , Richmond (VFA) 1901-02, 1904-07 b: 29/4/1878 Orig club : Collingwood Jnrs

John "Jack" James McKenzie - Ess 1929 B: 19/8/1908 Orig club Brunswick. Son of Jack Joseph. ie: John Joseph

*William "Bill" Harold McMaster - Nth 1946 B:15/3/1922 Orig Club; Moonee Ponds

 

[GreyCrow]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD

*John "Jack" Llewellen Matthews - Nth 1941 - b:22/10/1914 Orig club Mirboo North

Charlie McCartney - Sth Melb 1897, Ess 1899. b:26/2/1874 Orig Club: West Melbourne

*James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald - Melb 1942 b: 24/6/1916 Orig club: Leongatha. Brother of Alan McDonald who played Richmond 1939-1943, and coached Richmond 1957-1960 (Rhett - I'm seeing if the Richmond Museum has a contact for the McDonald family who could assist)

Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald - Ess 1918-19 b: 27/3/1897 Orig club: Yarraville Brother of Frank

Robert "Rhoda" Ernest McDonald - Coll 1897, Carl 1901 , Richmond (VFA) 1901-02, 1904-07 b: 29/4/1878 Orig club : Collingwood Jnrs

John "Jack" James McKenzie - Ess 1929 B: 19/8/1908 Orig club Brunswick. Son of Jack Joseph. ie: John Joseph

*William "Bill" Harold McMaster - Nth 1946 B:15/3/1922 Orig Club; Moonee Ponds

So you guys should have these knocked off before I get home

 

[the croucher]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD
<snip>

Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald - Ess 1918-19 b: 27/3/1897 Orig club: Yarraville Brother of Frank

<snip>

According to the Essendon website pages for past players, Paddy died sometime in the 1950s
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-m

Will check for clues in range of BDMs to see if I find a match.

 

[the croucher]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD
<snip>
*William "Bill" Harold McMaster - Nth 1946 B:15/3/1922 Orig Club; Moonee Ponds

McMaster may have died just a few days ago ?
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/notice/450502021

 

[Harry Hook]

Charlie McCartney it appears was dead as at 1947.

Cf The Record 5 July 1947

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165033308

 

[the croucher]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD
<snip>

John "Jack" James McKenzie - Ess 1929 B: 19/8/1908 Orig club Brunswick. Son of Jack Joseph. ie: John Joseph

<snip>

Jack McKenzie, son of JJ "Dookie" is listed as deceased in his father's death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206798897
so Jack's death must have occurred between 1929 and 1946.

The list of children in the death notice is in order of birth and ties in with info on Vic BDMs for the various children
Name - Yr Birth Reg - Reg Number
Margaret 1907 - 15507
John James 1908 - 25019
Veronica Aileen 1910 - 1167
Richard Alexander 1911 - 1210
Leslie Thomas 1913 - 10099

The mother Mary Ellen McCann died in 1918 aged 32, so one assumes "Dookie" re-married
and had further family, thus having last named child in the notice being known as John.

 

[the croucher]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD
<snip>

Charlie McCartney - Sth Melb 1897, Ess 1899. b:26/2/1874 Orig Club: West Melbourne

<snip>

Looks like Macartney died at Colac 26 May 1949
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22731202

 

[rbartlett]

Looks like Macartney died at Colac 26 May 1949
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22731202

Hmm, is it perhaps a different person there.

I notice the surname spelling is slightly different to what the AFL has, and even what The Record had
Obit has MACARTNEY. AFL, The Record has McCartney.

Plus, Post 212, contradicts Post 210

 

[the croucher]

Twelfth batch of DOD players
<snip>
Reginald John "Jack" Law (Foots 1943-44) (b: 18/7/1924) Orig club: Yarraville
<snip>

I cannot find any refs to his death in BDMs, Ryerson, Ancestry, or Melbourne Cemeteries.

Yes, he'd be 93 at present, but with the population getting older as generations go by,
he is another who could still be alive.

Have just spoken with family member - Jack Law is still alive, but not in best of health.

 

[the croucher]

Looks like Macartney died at Colac 26 May 1949
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22731202

The Vic BDMs have a death for Charles Macartney/[McCartney] registered in 1949 #18294
He died at Colac, place of birth shown as West Melbourne. Parents Francis and Ann (nee Ryan).
The Vic BDMs entry in 1874 for birth with reg number 3894 has same parents listed.

Ancestry family trees have deaths for father Francis (1895) and a brother John Joseph (1900) both in West Melbourne district.
Mother Ann (1898) is listed as death in Melbourne.

I'll be surprised if we haven't found the correct person.

 

[GreyCrow]

The Vic BDMs have a death for Charles Macartney/[McCartney] registered in 1949 #18294
He died at Colac, place of birth shown as West Melbourne. Parents Francis and Ann (nee Ryan).
The Vic BDMs entry in 1874 for birth with reg number 3894 has same parents listed.

Ancestry family trees have deaths for father Francis (1895) and a brother John Joseph (1900) both in West Melbourne district.
Mother Ann (1898) is listed as death in Melbourne.

I'll be surprised if we haven't found the correct person.

There is also a Charles Mccartney born to Unknown and Harriet Smalley in 1874 no death found
Harriet married James Mccartney in 1867 and has 2 other children . I assume James was left off of BC or he had passed by then

 

[Harry Hook]

I wouldn't get too hung up about the spelling of McCartney's last name, as we all know newspaper reports, were to put it nicely, inconsistent.

The 1947 report suggests that he dead as at 1947.

 

[Harry Hook]

Don't know if this helps but McCartney called himself "McCartney" in the permit trail.

Argus 1 June 1899
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

 

[the croucher]

Charlie McCartney it appears was dead as at 1947.

Cf The Record 5 July 1947

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165033308

Actually the article states

"...as far as can be ascertained..."

so if members had lost touch with Charlie they may have just been assuming he was dead.

 

[GreyCrow]

Jack McKenzie, son of JJ "Dookie" is listed as deceased in his father's death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206798897
so Jack's death must have occurred between 1929 and 1946.

The list of children in the death notice is in order of birth and ties in with info on Vic BDMs for the various children
Name - Yr Birth Reg - Reg Number
Margaret 1907 - 15507
John James 1908 - 25019
Veronica Aileen 1910 - 1167
Richard Alexander 1911 - 1210
Leslie Thomas 1913 - 10099

The mother Mary Ellen McCann died in 1918 aged 32, so one assumes "Dookie" re-married
and had further family, thus having last named child in the notice being known as John.

If we believe this , and there is no reason not too, then can we narrow it down even further? And then start looking at WW2 causalty?

John James McKenzie engaged to Marjorie Ryan in a 1937 listing http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205607513 the notice says eldest son of and late mother
Then VIC BDM confirm a marriage in 1938 of same

 

[Harry Hook]

Actually the article states

"...as far as can be ascertained..."

so if members had lost touch with Charlie they may have just been assuming he was dead.

My reading of the article was that Bert Howson had been in contact with everyone except Byers but as to the rest they knew whether he was alive or dead. But that does not mean necessarily that he was alive or dead only that as 1947 it was the considered view of one of the players of the time McCartney had played, that McCartney was then dead.

In any event, the first thing we should ascertain, imo, at least as best as possible, is the correct spelling of his name.

Contemporary evidence strongly suggests, at least in as far as I have seen, suggests that his last name was McCartney but as I pointed out earlier that is not the be all and and end all.

Further are we sure that his name was in fact Charlie, either as a first name or at all. As we have seen many times the fact that somebody called themselves Charlie does not mean their actual name was not Richard Charlie or indeed Richard.

I never presume when it comes to players who were listed as playing up to 1910 given the sometimes lack of evidence of that person being the player.

 

[GreyCrow]

FIFTEENTH BATCH OF MISSING DOD

Charlie McCartney - Sth Melb 1897, Ess 1899. b:26/2/1874 Orig Club: West Melbourne

Further are we sure that his name was in fact Charlie, either as a first name or at all. As we have seen many times the fact that somebody called themselves Charlie does not mean their actual name was not Richard Charlie or indeed Richard.

I never presume when it comes to players who were listed as playing up to 1910 given the sometimes lack of evidence of that person being the player.

You have made a very valid point . We see by the above that McCartney missed 1898. Why and where? If this is him playing for West Melbourne , his original noted club, then yes it is a C ( for Charles or another) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article106845854

In his permit request it is C McCartney. While I cant say it is Charlie/Charles or whether it is a first or second name I think we start with that assumption until shown otherwise

 

[the croucher]

Jack McKenzie, son of JJ "Dookie" is listed as deceased in his father's death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206798897
so Jack's death must have occurred between 1929 and 1946.

The list of children in the death notice is in order of birth and ties in with info on Vic BDMs for the various children
Name - Yr Birth Reg - Reg Number
Margaret 1907 - 15507
John James 1908 - 25019
Veronica Aileen 1910 - 1167
Richard Alexander 1911 - 1210
Leslie Thomas 1913 - 10099

The mother Mary Ellen McCann died in 1918 aged 32, so one assumes "Dookie" re-married
and had further family, thus having last named child in the notice being known as John.

The son named Bernard and listed as deceased in Dookie's death notice was born in 1915,
died on active service on 10 July 1945 and is buried in the Labuan War Cemetery.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/173128/mckenzie,-bernard-lawrence/

Haven't yet been able to find a death notice on Trove to check family listing.

 

[the croucher]

You have made a very valid point . We see by the above that McCartney missed 1898. Why and where? If this is him playing for West Melbourne , his original noted club, then yes it is a C ( for Charles or another) http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article106845854

In his permit request it is C McCartney. While I cant say it is Charlie/Charles or whether it is a first or second name I think we start with that assumption until shown otherwise

Another match later in 1898 (end of July) as reported in early August also has a McCartney playing with West Melbourne
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/106847386

 

[the croucher]

The Vic BDMs have a death for Charles Macartney/[McCartney] registered in 1949 #18294
He died at Colac, place of birth shown as West Melbourne. Parents Francis and Ann (nee Ryan).
The Vic BDMs entry in 1874 for birth with reg number 3894 has same parents listed.

Ancestry family trees have deaths for father Francis (1895) and a brother John Joseph (1900) both in West Melbourne district.
Mother Ann (1898) is listed as death in Melbourne.

I'll be surprised if we haven't found the correct person.

I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before but there is a certain time span when the newspapers we see on Trove
published the "Mac..." or "McC..." surnames as a "M'c..."

Perhaps these items confirm matters
West Melbourne paying respect to C McCartney's mother, long respected resident of West Melbourne
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/106847368

mother Ann's death in mid-June 1898 (and note it states "widow of the late Francis")
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9837952