Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

Thirteenth Batch of DOD
William "Billy" Lachlan Mark Lewis - Carlton 1900. B: 15/9/1874 Orig club Richmond City

http://www.blueseum.org/Bill+Lewis

The excellent Blueseum site has:- DOD: 10th May, 1940

After departing Carlton Bill headed west where for a time he was publican of the Palace Hotel in Davyhurst, Bill lived in Kalgoorie from 1916 until his death in the same town on the 10th May 1940 at the age of 65.

 

[GreyCrow]

http://www.blueseum.org/Bill+Lewis

The excellent Blueseum site has:- DOD: 10th May, 1940

After departing Carlton Bill headed west where for a time he was publican of the Palace Hotel in Davyhurst, Bill lived in Kalgoorie from 1916 until his death in the same town on the 10th May 1940 at the age of 65.

Trove notice

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95094112

 

[35Daicos]

Trove notice

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95094112

Thanks. It's a bit puzzling the AFL doesn't have this one. Even Lewis' Wikipedia entry has it. It's also a real surprise that George Lockwood's name is on that list.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks. It's a bit puzzling the AFL doesn't have this one. Even Lewis' Wikipedia entry has it. It's also a real surprise that George Lockwood's name is on that list.

I think as Rhett has found the AFL are a fair way behind on some things and are probably relying on people like us to find them. History is really under resourced at the AFL

(puts hand up for job )

 

[35Daicos]

I think as Rhett has found the AFL are a fair way behind on some things and are probably relying on people like us to find them. History is really under resourced at the AFL

(puts hand up for job )

Posts: 23,000
Well done! I think I can hit the 4,000 mark by Christmas if I really try!!

 

[GreyCrow]

On George and Teddy Lockwood as 35Daicos has pointed out it took wikipedia to straighten me up

With a nominal birthdate of Late 1872 in Geelong area and a twin I saw 2 entries that fit

Event registration number2714 Registration year1873 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given names Edward Father's nameThos Mother's nameCharlotte (Chambers)
Place of birthGEELONG

Event registration number2713 Registration year1873 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given names George Father's nameThos Mother's nameCharlotte (Chambers)
Place of birthGEELONG

Consecutive numbers same parents so twins born in Geelong.

Wikipedia also have Teddys death in 1953 (saying aged 80) Vic BDM say aged 81 though that could take into account an informant saying 1872 birth without reference to December

EventDeath Event registration number6481 Registration year1953 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given namesEdward Father's nameLOCKWOOD Unknown
Mother's nameUnknown (Unknown) Place of birth GEELONG Place of deathALBERT PARK Age 81

Teds Obit http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164507215

Through this link we can narrow George past 1944 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206782845

 

[rbartlett]

Couple of points
GreyCrow I'm not suggesting Edward 'Teddy' Lockwood died in 1946. That note is from Stephen Rogers and is to be interpreted that he believes George Lockwood himself died in 1946.

35Daicos / GreyCrow The AFL hasn't looked at their DOB / DOD list for 10 years. I suspect at some point Stephen R thought he went as far as he could with his research, and hoped for a relatives to fill in gaps when he sent SOS out through footy record.
Daics, btw why is it surprise Lockwood is on the list. Is it because he was Geelong player / Col H etc.

 

[the croucher]

If your suggestion of Edward 'Teddy' Lockwood who died in 1946 is a brother to George Lockwood then we see this come up ( I shall abbreviate it)

Event registration number21646 Registration year1946 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given namesJohn Edward Father's nameLOCKWOOD James
Mother's nameBarbara (Ernshaw) Place of birth LANCEFIELD Place of deathSHEPPARTON Age76 -Gives BD 1870

Registration year1926 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given namesGeorge Father's nameLOCKWOOD James Mother's nameBarbara (Ernshaw)
Place of birth Place of deathLANCEFIELD Age66 Gives BD 1860

ie cant be twin and would be 40 plus Edward/Teddy born in Victoria

But sometimes its about elimination as well as nomination.

But sometimes life throws a curve. In the 1926 story a Bill is also mentioned in the brothers tale. So we then get this http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article148371788

Event registration number8633 Registration year1938 Family nameLOCKWOOD Given namesWilliam
Father's nameLOCKWOOD James Mother's nameBarbara (Earnshaw) Place of birthLANCEFIELD
Place of deathKINGSVILLE Age76

So a story mentions all 3 names but I cant see it being the footballers

WA BDMs dont offer much

An obituary for a Mrs Edward Lockwood appears here in 1940
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/172043340

Mentions she was born in Geelong, but also refers to Collingwood.

Here too is an obit in 1953 for Teddy Lockwood
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164507215

Well, there you go then, others in the group posting same at about same time !

 

[35Daicos]

Daics, btw why is it surprise Lockwood is on the list. Is it because he was Geelong player / Col H etc.

No, simply because he was a rather prominent player, he and his twin brother were obviously quite well known in their playing days. It's just surprising to me that his death apparently "slipped through the cracks".

 

[GreyCrow]

Couple of points
GreyCrow I'm not suggesting Edward 'Teddy' Lockwood died in 1946. That note is from Stephen Rogers and is to be interpreted that he believes George Lockwood himself died in 1946.

35Daicos / GreyCrow The AFL hasn't looked at their DOB / DOD list for 10 years. I suspect at some point Stephen R thought he went as far as he could with his research, and hoped for a relatives to fill in gaps when he sent SOS out through footy record.
Daics, btw why is it surprise Lockwood is on the list. Is it because he was Geelong player / Col H etc.

Yes understand the italics are not yours Its me thinking out loud and typing

Interesting he has focused on that period and only a slight confusion which occurs in these anomalies of family history. The following is presented

Event registration number18980 Registration year1947 Family name LOCKWOOD Given names John Porritt Hardman Father's nameHARDMAN William Moorhouse Mother's nameCharlotte (Chambers) Place of birth GEELONG Place of deathNEWTOWN Age68 BD 1879

So we have 2 Charlotte Chambers in Geelong marrying Lockwoods or the Thomas is another name of the above ? And is this the John/Jack in the notice for Alan?

Sorry for cluttering up the thread with side notes but I find it helps narrow the focus.

 

[GreyCrow]

An obituary for a Mrs Edward Lockwood appears here in 1940
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/172043340

Mentions she was born in Geelong, but also refers to Collingwood.

Here too is an obit in 1953 for Teddy Lockwood
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164507215

I find it odd that a nephew got a mention before the brothers in law. And in Teddys no family were mentioned specifically.

 

[the croucher]

Yes understand the italics are not yours Its me thinking out loud and typing

Interesting he has focused on that period and only a slight confusion which occurs in these anomalies of family history. The following is presented

Event registration number18980 Registration year1947 Family name LOCKWOOD Given names John Porritt Hardman Father's nameHARDMAN William Moorhouse Mother's nameCharlotte (Chambers) Place of birth GEELONG Place of deathNEWTOWN Age68 BD 1879

So we have 2 Charlotte Chambers in Geelong marrying Lockwoods or the Thomas is another name of the above ? And is this the John/Jack in the notice for Alan?

Sorry for cluttering up the thread with side notes but I find it helps narrow the focus.

Rather than 2 Charlotte's I think it a case of Thomas Lockwood dying quite young, Charlotte marrying William Hardman and first child John Porritt being registered under Lockwood name with his step-dad's surname as his third given name.

 

[GreyCrow]

Rather than 2 Charlotte's I think it a case of Thomas Lockwood dying quite young, Charlotte marrying William Hardman and first child John Porritt being registered under Lockwood name with his step-dad's surname as his third given name.

I do see that now. The registration under Chambers threw me

 

[the croucher]

Thirteenth Batch of DOD
<snip>
James "Jim" Gordon Lyons - Carlton 1897-98. B: 5/4/1876 Orig club Parkville

<snip>

The Blueseum site entry for him has name as James Joseph Lyons
and a different birthdate - 15 Jan 1876
http://www.blueseum.org/Jim+Lyons

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I do see that now. The registration under Chambers threw me

After Thomas’s death Charlotte married William Moorhouse Hardman (1840–?) and they had one child
John Porritt Hardman Lockwood 1878–1947
She died as Charlotte Hardman in 1884

It appears after her death in 1884 John Porritt stayed with the Lockwood children in Geelong and ended up taking the Lockwood name. William Moorhouse Hardman re-married in Tasmania in 1892.

The rest of the Lockwood family as far as I have traced it looked like:
Thomas Lockwood (1821–1876) m Charlotte Chambers (1843–1884)
Mary Anne Lockwood 1861–1964
Amelia Lockwood 1863–1864
Emily Lockwood 1865–1953
Ada Lockwood 1867–1942
William Thomas Lockwood 1868–1953
Ann Lockwood 1871–
George Lockwood 1872–
Edward Lockwood 1872–1953
Joseph Henry Lockwood 1875–1875
Allan Alfred Lockwood 1876–1944

 

[rbartlett]

Fourteenth Batch of missing DOD
John "Johnny" Murray MacGregor - Richmond 1911. B: 3/12/1889 Orig club East Melb. WW1 Army Likely UK/France death - see WW1 Record. APPEARS TO HAVE DIED OVER IN FRANCE AFTER THE WAR

*James "Jim" Malone - NthMelb 1945-52 . B: 13/11/1925 Orig club Flemington CYMS. WW2 Army Brother of Jack (Footscray), and Joe STILL ALIVE AS OF 2011 ACCORDING TO NTH MELB.

*Joseph "Joe" Malone - NthMelb 1946-47. B: 4/2/1924. Orig clubs Bendigo/ Laanecoorie. WW2 Army Brother of Jack (Footscray), and Joe

Graham Henry March - StKilda 1952. B: 4/5/1925 Orig club Brunswick. Grandfather of Matthew Bate (Melb)

John "Joe" Albert Marchant - StKilda 1904. B: 11/9/1884 Orig Club Prahran. Called Joe.

Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr - Carlton 1900-02. , Ess: 1903. B: 9/08/1880 Orig Club Richmond City.
POSSIBLE DIED NEW ZEALAND 1918

 

[GreyCrow]

Fourteenth Batch of missing DOD

Graham Henry March - StKilda 1952. B: 4/5/1925 Orig club Brunswick. Grandfather of Matthew Bate (Melb)
.

MARCH. Graham Henry. Passed away Seymour Hospital May 17, 2016, aged 91 years Gra, our beautiful loving friendship weathered the storms and stayed strong. Yours forever and beyond June. MARCH. Graham. Uncle to Al and Bet. Great bloke, great St Kilda supporter and ex player. Rest in Peace.
Obituaries
Published in Herald Sun on 26/05/2016

 

[GreyCrow]

Fourteenth Batch of missing DOD
John "Johnny" Murray MacGregor - Richmond 1911. B: 3/12/1889 Orig club East Melb. WW1 Army Likely UK/France death - see WW1 Record.

The italics of a French/UK death might be likely but not WW1. Ryersons have a note of a John Murray MacGregor passing in 1966 in Dunkirk and the Age reporting it in that year. Now whether that is a reference to a WW1 death I dont know. It could be a 50 year memorium.

MACGREGOR John Murray Death notice 19MAY1966 Publication at Dunkirk, France The Age (Melbourne) 19MAY1966

John Murray MacGregor of Northcote served overseas , interstingly it says Fate: Effective Abroad (still overseas) Maybe he stayed in Dunkirk? https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=183123

The Richmond Home Page says he finished at Staff Sergeant level in 1920.

 

[the croucher]

The italics of a French/UK death might be likely but not WW1. Ryersons have a note of a John Murray MacGregor passing in 1966 in Dunkirk and the Age reporting it in that year. Now whether that is a reference to a WW1 death I dont know. It could be a 50 year memorium.

MACGREGOR John Murray Death notice 19MAY1966 Publication at Dunkirk, France The Age (Melbourne) 19MAY1966

John Murray MacGregor of Northcote served overseas , interstingly it says Fate: Effective Abroad (still overseas) Maybe he stayed in Dunkirk? https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=183123

The Richmond Home Page says he finished at Staff Sergeant level in 1920.

I think it a death notice for that year (1966).

JM Macgregor's service record for WW1
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/46973
indicates that he married a French lady and managed a hotel there in the St Omer area.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The italics of a French/UK death might be likely but not WW1. Ryersons have a note of a John Murray MacGregor passing in 1966 in Dunkirk and the Age reporting it in that year. Now whether that is a reference to a WW1 death I dont know. It could be a 50 year memorium.

MACGREGOR John Murray Death notice 19MAY1966 Publication at Dunkirk, France The Age (Melbourne) 19MAY1966

John Murray MacGregor of Northcote served overseas , interstingly it says Fate: Effective Abroad (still overseas) Maybe he stayed in Dunkirk? https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=183123

According to his WWI record at https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/records/86078/68 he married a French woman - the letter I have linked to expresses her desire not to have to travel to Australia and that John had obtained a good position a few kilometers away and also wanted to stay in France.

 

[GreyCrow]

Fourteenth Batch of missing DOD
Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr - Carlton 1900-02. , Ess: 1903. B: 9/08/1880 Orig Club Richmond City.

The family may have called him Tom
The family of Joseph Thomas Marr born 1880 to James and Elizabeth Marr ( Midolo) (d 1912)
Joseph Thomas 1880-
Eliza Mary 1882-1883
Ethel May 1883- 1958 Married Fred Mackrell 1903
Clara Victoria 1885-1885
Edith Alice 1887-1940 married Herbert Whelan 1910
Cassie Elizabeth 1888-1888
William Ramsey -1889-1890
Frederick James 1890-1890
Ida Olive 1894-1895
Leslie George 1897-1970 ( from BDM) married Pearl Stevenson 1926
Albert 1898-1898
Ruby Sophia 1899-1907
Veronica Elizabeth 1903- Married William Newport 1929
Queenie Annie 1907- 1987 married Clarence Mcallister 1936

Going by Edith Alices' death notice then we have to say Jospeh Thomas ''Tom'' was deceased before 1940 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204415984

BUT I Cant find him!!

 

[the croucher]

The family may have called him Tom
The family of Joseph Thomas Marr born 1880 to James and Elizabeth Marr ( Midolo) (d 1912)
Joseph Thomas 1880-
Eliza Mary 1882-1883
Ethel May 1883- 1958 Married Fred Mackrell 1903
Clara Victoria 1885-1885
Edith Alice 1887-1940 married Herbert Whelan 1910
Cassie Elizabeth 1888-1888
William Ramsey -1889-1890
Frederick James 1890-1890
Ida Olive 1894-1895
Leslie George 1897-1970 ( from BDM) married Pearl Stevenson 1926
Albert 1898-1898
Ruby Sophia 1899-1907
Veronica Elizabeth 1903- Married William Newport 1929
Queenie Annie 1907- 1987 married Clarence Mcallister 1936

Going by Edith Alices' death notice then we have to say Jospeh Thomas ''Tom'' was deceased before 1940 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204415984

BUT I Cant find him!!

Tom's father - James Adam Marr - died in 1914. His death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7251140

indicates Tom was still alive at that time,
so that leaves us with span to check from 1914 until 1940.

 

[GreyCrow]

Looking at Australian BDMs doesnt give anything that looks right. Once again I looked at NZ and found an entry that is of interest. Not saying it is but its a possibility to keep in mind

1918/37922 Marr Joseph 37Y which gives a BD of either 1881 or 1880

I also checked births for a Joseph Marr in NZ records from 1878 to 1882 and no entries were found.

 

[rbartlett]

Response received from Stephen Rodgers regarding the initial batch I sent to him - and the couple of entries we felt the AFL had discrepancies with.
Stephen's responses in italics.
Regardless of his notes at the bottom, I will continue to post in batches until we get to the end, and then do one final post of all the players we haven't got full DOD for (and obviously DOB for, which is still the same 4 from memory). I notice in his list at the bottom he has completed details for players I didn't submit in the email- so I assume they were sent to him directly from others on here. If I accidentally double up with them later on , forgive me

Jack Roberts (Carlton)
Yes, that's all Ok.
We'll go with, died 5 - 8 - 1921.
And yes, as you say, we have a birth record:
born 1867 at Scarsdale (No 4731) -
so we'll get that d-o-b eventually

Leslie Gordon Field
Yes, we'll go with Leslie Gordon
b 29 - 11 - 1921
d 29 - 9 - 1986

Tom Watson
yep, we'll go with the new d-o-d of 3 - 8 - 1936

Archibald McNair
took on-board all that you said there.
Actually, I thought that was going to be a problem, as I couldn't see him in Vic Births!
Then, I did!! as:
Macnair Archibald MacIndoe b. 1880 at Rich (No. 24728)
so we'll eventually get that d-o-b
And we have the d-o-d, thanks! of 18 - 2 - 1960
And, despite that birth, I'd say we'll leave him as McNair

Henry Barr
all noted. re the pre-1929 death. Do any of your guys, have any idea, where he may have died?
He doesn't seem to be in Vic, NSW, Qld, SA, WA or Tas Deaths (up to '29); but with Tas I could
only check up to 1919. So, you wonder, Tas 1920-29?
Or overseas? He doesn't seem to be in NZ deaths, which as you know, you can check online.
Also, UK Probate for (some) English deaths, up to '29 - no luck there.
Great, if your guys can investigate this further!

Merv Bolger
weird one! Thanks so much for the d-o-d!! As you note, all his personal records, seem to be as Bulger.
Yet his time in footy, with North in 1940 (incl. the clearance, as you showed) is as Bolger.
(Then, barely a year later, his military record is as Bulger!!)
We may have to leave him as Bolger; and say in the Remarks: also known as Bulger - something like that.

Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby
ten times worse than Bolger, and by far the worst of the lot!
Honestly, where is this guy coming from?
Thanks so much for the death details - it turns out to be 23 - 11 - 1979 (in Fawkner)
About 5 or 6 Death Notices, in The Sun, all as Lawrence William, and called, Lawrie.
So, W T F !!!!! - about the Frank.
In The Age May 14, 1953 court case article, he's there as Eugene Francis.
And you've shown us, in that other article, the military one - about having the 2 names.
His military record, by the way, is a nightmare!
He has 2 overlapping!! (which I've never seen before) military records, with different numbers!!!
And the date of discharge, on one, is after his debut, for Coll!
And the d-o-b, on these, 11 - 2 - 1923; is, as you will have noticed, completely out of whack with
him as a player, the 24 - 12 - 1924.
Bloody hell!!
I think the only way we can resolve this, is by an examination of the Vic Births in the 1920s
(which, I think, Russell's friend at the BDM will have to do; can you think of any other way?)
and seeing if there's a Lawrence William and/or a Eugene Francis.
Hopefully, there's only the one. What is the birth record ref. (or, ideally, d-o-b)
and hopefully this matches the parents of the 1979 death, William John and Rose Rafferty.
Also, Michael Roberts (for his Coll players bios) has been working on this guy independently,
and said he'll keep in touch if anything extra turns up.

So in summary:
So those are, you might say, the 'problem children;' and everything else you gave us - I think! - is an OK.

My records are a bit of a dog's breakfast; there are papers everywhere, but, to sum up -
from the original list, plus the guys you've tacked on, I think we've now got exact dates-of-death, for these guys:

Barrett Bourke Collins Donald Dowell Dowling Phillips Maynard Honey Sykes Hannagan McCrory Lawrence Levey/Lander A.Brown
Lewis Edge Balme Hunt March Norris O'Donnell Raine Shaw Smethurst Gaynor (who is a new person, as I think I've told Ross Smith)
Weldon Winward Graeme Coulsell Fitzsimmons Armstrong Hogan Howe Johnstone Kuhl Logan R.Lyons Moore W.Clark Clarke
Dalwood Schaefer/Howard Considine Allen Gant Holden Howard T.Watson Bolger/Bulger McNair Field J.Roberts
Corby (with, of course, the correct d-o-b to be noted, as above)
I think that's it, at the moment.
Barb Cullen is overseas and there's a good chance she'll get MacGregor, the Dunkirk guy.
Any chance your guys may be able to get Brewis (Ipswich, Qld, 1994 - I think) or Glass (I think Coffs Harbour, NSW; don't know a date)?
Great, of course, if someone can turn up SOMETHING - hahaha!! on Ahern!

 

[GreyCrow]

Tom's father - James Adam Marr - died in 1914. His death notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/7251140

indicates Tom was still alive at that time,
so that leaves us with span to check from 1914 until 1940.

Looking at Australian BDMs doesnt give anything that looks right. Once again I looked at NZ and found an entry that is of interest. Not saying it is but its a possibility to keep in mind

1918/37922 Marr Joseph 37Y which gives a BD of either 1881 or 1880

I also checked births for a Joseph Marr in NZ records from 1878 to 1882 and no entries were found.

Might be able to narrow it down even further and the NZ record might be as close as we could get. I have also seen ( and lost ) a notice from a cricketers meeting in 1918/19 talking about deceased members and a Marr being one of them , but the following narrows it down by saying LG is the last surviving son

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93812531
Returning for a spell, Anzac Leslie
George Marr, M.M., only surviving
son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Marr, of
74 Somerset-street, and nephew of
Mr. John James, 4 Brougham-street.
He was one of the first Richmond
boys to don the khaki,