Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[Bandit55]

According to this article and notice South Melbourne's John Coghlan passed away on 21 November 2016:

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/coghlan-john-martin/4587955/

it looks as though he was the father of Adam Coghlan who was on the Swans list in 1998 and played for Sandringham.

 

[Jo McNaughton]

Hi Jo. Thanks very much for making contact. As you may have gathered from this thread, the AFL's records for a number of former players are incomplete.

I came across your father's death notice, a few weeks ago. This has led us to believe that your grandfather (and former South Melbourne footballer) was Keith Patrick Thomas McNAUGHTON who passed away on 30 May 2000, notice in the Herald Sun issue of 31 May 2000.

I guess our question is whether you can confirm that we have 'found' your grandfather.

Yes, you have "found" my grandfather.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thank you Jo

 

[SLRYAN]

Harry Collier infers Ginger was from Tassie. • HARRY COLLIER tells IAN JOHNSON how... This might have to go into the innacuracies thread unless a permit was granted?? A Ginger Ryan played in a Final Sep 22 1932. The same year a Ryan was representing Melbourne. COUNTRY PREMIERSHIP. - EASILY WON BY FRANKLIN. - Huon Times (Franklin, Tas. : 1910 - 1933) - 23 Sep 1932 ie Harry Collier talks about the Ryan playing for Collingwood, as noted above, to be from Tassie and a player noted as Ginger Ryan playing in Tassie in 1932. Though it seems his initial is W FRANKLIN v. CAMPBELL TOWN. - Huon Times (Franklin, Tas. : 1910 - 1933) - 23 Sep 1932 but can we link the 2? Yet we have a Ryan in Melbournes 2nd 18 playing in a Final on September 30 LEAGUE SECOND EIGHTEENS. - Melbourne and Essendon in Grand Pinal. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 30 Sep 1932 who is Harry Collier talking about then??

I also accept the possibility of many Ryans playing football, and even some playing at the same time. But I think there is a mix up somewhere or Harrys memory is poor.

Or was he born in 1912?? RYAN DISCHARGED FROM HOSPITAL. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 22 Sep 1933 a 1933 article stating the Melbourne 2nds player Allan Ryan aged 21. There is a VIC BDM birth in Carlton 1912 of an Allan Ryan to an (unknown) and Ethel Alice Ryan but died 1913.

More investigation needed



Might be a direction for people to go. Vic BDM have 2 marriages in the aprroximate time. One Allen James to a Dorothy Marion Seigmann in 1938. (died 1968) (she was born Port Pirie SA)

Another ( coincidentally with above story) a James Allan to an Eva Collier in 1939

Hi there, I am the grandaughter of the mentioned Alan Ryan ( Ginger ...or Bluey a he was also called). Alan Ryan was most definitely not Tasmanian. Harry and Albert Collier were my great Uncles and my grandfather Alan Ryan was married to Eve Collier. I hope this clarifies a few connections. Let me know if you have any other questions and I'll endeavour to find the answers.

 

[ThePope]

I have some uncertainty about Carlton 2 game superstar Adam Inglis' date of death. A user updated his Wikipedia page with 13 August 1971, which would mean he died age 42 (1929 birth, although he was called a 20 year old in his 1951 debut - close enough). BUT... 2 Adam Sinclair Inglis (no evidence that's the footballer's middle name) are listed as dying in 1971 on GMCT. 1 from Williamstown has a photo on findagrave, and indicates he was born in 1891, maybe his dad as Blueseum has him being recruited from Williamstown? The other is listed as being in The Victorian Garden of Remembrance with service number 5394. War records show that he was born in about 1888!

So it aint them.
Also found one in Geelong, but he died in 1999 age 76, so a bit too old - would've been 28 on debut.

Back to Ryerson, I found another one... 2023 - 94 = 1929!!!

INGLIS	Adam	Death notice	21JUL2023	Death	94		Herald Sun (Melbourne)	02AUG2023
INGLIS	Adam	Death notice	21JUL2023	Death	94		The Age (Melbourne)	02AUG2023

Anyone want to contact Tony de Bolfo to ask if he thinks this is his guy?

 

[35Daicos]

I have some uncertainty about Carlton 2 game superstar Adam Inglis' date of death. A user updated his Wikipedia page with 13 August 1971, which would mean he died age 42 (1929 birth, although he was called a 20 year old in his 1951 debut - close enough). BUT... 2 Adam Sinclair Inglis (no evidence that's the footballer's middle name) are listed as dying in 1971 on GMCT. 1 from Williamstown has a photo on findagrave, and indicates he was born in 1891, maybe his dad as Blueseum has him being recruited from Williamstown? The other is listed as being in The Victorian Garden of Remembrance with service number 5394. War records show that he was born in about 1888!

So it aint them.
Also found one in Geelong, but he died in 1999 age 76, so a bit too old - would've been 28 on debut.

Back to Ryerson, I found another one... 2023 - 94 = 1929!!!

INGLIS	Adam	Death notice	21JUL2023	Death	94		Herald Sun (Melbourne)	02AUG2023
INGLIS	Adam	Death notice	21JUL2023	Death	94		The Age (Melbourne)	02AUG2023

Anyone want to contact Tony de Bolfo to ask if he thinks this is his guy?

I think you have almost certainly found the right chap (the one who died recently). I see he was married to Joan:



The man who died in 1971 will very likely have been his father:


Though there was another Adam Sinclair Inglis who married (in Victoria) in 1956.

 

[35Daicos]

 

[the croucher]

Well done all round, I think we might have a confirmed DOD now as 21 July 2023.

The attached detail from a shipping list for passengers on the 'Himalaya' leaving London for Australia in August 1957 includes Adam Sinclair Inglis with same birthdate (14.07.1929) and his wife Joan. His occupation is shown as organic chemist which ties in with him being recruited from Melbourne University.

 

[35Daicos]

Well done all round, I think we might have a confirmed DOD now as 21 July 2023.

The attached detail from a shipping list for passengers on the 'Himalaya' leaving London for Australia in August 1957 includes Adam Sinclair Inglis with same birthdate (14.07.1929) and his wife Joan. His occupation is shown as organic chemist which ties in with him being recruited from Melbourne University.

I just headed back here to mention his occupation, and the likely Melbourne Uni connection! He left for England (with wife Joan) in 1953, so that probably would have meant the end of his football-playing days:



Melbourne University results:

 

[ThePope]

I just headed back here to mention his occupation, and the likely Melbourne Uni connection! He left for England (with wife Joan) in 1953, so that probably would have meant the end of his football-playing days:
View attachment 1810009
View attachment 1810011

View attachment 1810012

There are mentions of him if getting a scientific officer job in government gazettes on trove (with full salary!), so it all ties together nicely.

 

[35Daicos]

There are mentions of him if getting a scientific officer job in government gazettes on trove (with full salary!), so it all ties together nicely.

It does. Nice work in spotting this one in the first place! Curiously enough, the Register of V.C.A. 1st XI Pennant, District & Premier Cricketers repeats the DOD error for Adam Sinclair Inglis!:

Kevin Gordon was his brother. He was also a footballer:

 

[ThePope]

I tagged de Bolfo on Twitter about Inglis & he replied that they don't believe the DOB for Jim Watson (James Hamish Watson) is correct.

Any ideas?

 

[35Daicos]

I tagged de Bolfo on Twitter about Inglis & he replied that they don't believe the DOB for Jim Watson (James Hamish Watson) is correct.

Any ideas?

I can't see anything that helps (on Ancestry or elsewhere). This is from his Army record:

It looks highly likely that someone has just done the sum and taken 19 years 5 months from 17 July 1915 and come up with 17 February 1896 for his DOB, so I can understand why they are dubious about it! His birth reg. doesn't seem to be on Vic BDM, strangely enough.

 

[the croucher]

Think there is a bit of cross-checking to do here with James Watson.

I don't think the J W who dies at end of 1978 (Vic BDMs record of death has mother listed as Polly Hamilton)
is the same person who signs up for WW1
(that J W having father J W snr at 132 Lygon Street with Mary Ann Watson [nee Spell] as female at same address,
and earlier records showing Watson snr indeed marrying a Mary Ann Spell in 1884)

James Hamish Watson married Marjorie T S Collins in NSW on about 23/24 October 1934. She dies in Melbourne in 1975 and is listed in 1972 electoral roll at same address as J H W.

A copy of that NSW marriage certificate should list bride and groom parents.

 

[GreyCrow]

Think there is a bit of cross-checking to do here with James Watson.

I don't think the J W who dies at end of 1978 (Vic BDMs record of death has mother listed as Polly Hamilton)
is the same person who signs up for WW1
(that J W having father J W snr at 132 Lygon Street with Mary Ann Watson [nee Spell] as female at same address,
and earlier records showing Watson snr indeed marrying a Mary Ann Spell in 1884)

James Hamish Watson married Marjorie T S Collins in NSW on about 23/24 October 1934. She dies in Melbourne in 1975 and is listed in 1972 electoral roll at same address as J H W.

A copy of that NSW marriage certificate should list bride and groom parents.

Polly is a nickname for Mary

Polly - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Though searching Vic BDM shows James and Mary Ann having 8 children all around Eaglehawk and surrounds between 1885 and 1905 with James Ernest in 1887

Are those records in the Electoral Roll?

 

[35Daicos]

Think there is a bit of cross-checking to do here with James Watson.

I don't think the J W who dies at end of 1978 (Vic BDMs record of death has mother listed as Polly Hamilton)
is the same person who signs up for WW1
(that J W having father J W snr at 132 Lygon Street with Mary Ann Watson [nee Spell] as female at same address,
and earlier records showing Watson snr indeed marrying a Mary Ann Spell in 1884)

James Hamish Watson married Marjorie T S Collins in NSW on about 23/24 October 1934. She dies in Melbourne in 1975 and is listed in 1972 electoral roll at same address as J H W.

A copy of that NSW marriage certificate should list bride and groom parents.

Seeing that there was a Mary Ann living at that Lygon Street address certainly had me puzzled as well! This is the chap who died at Mentone in 1978:


I think it might be significant that one of his sons had Hamilton in his name (Malcolm Hamilton Watson). The other son (who died tragically in a hanging accident) had what seems to be a "family name" from his mother's side (Skewes) as part of his name:

 

[35Daicos]

James Watson married Marjory T S Collins in NSW in 1934, yet her maiden name was Bray:


So she had been married to a Collins a few years earlier (he died in a car accident in December 1926):

 

[35Daicos]

Polly is a nickname for Mary

Polly - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Though searching Vic BDM shows James and Mary Ann having 8 children all around Eaglehawk and surrounds between 1885 and 1905 with James Ernest in 1887

Are those records in the Electoral Roll?

Another of them was born/registered in 1896, the year James Hamish is meant to have been born:

James Ernest didn't die young, so it does seem unlikely they had a James Hamish in 1896:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I tagged de Bolfo on Twitter about Inglis & he replied that they don't believe the DOB for Jim Watson (James Hamish Watson) is correct.

Any ideas?

Looking on Ancestry & Vic BDM I reckon this one is solvable

In Jim Watson's service record is a letter from his parents granting him permission to enlist - signed by James & Mary Ann Watson. This made me suspect that the "Polly Hamilton" listed as mother in death record is incorrect...

Jim Watson married Marjory Thelma Skewes Bray (1899-1975) in NSW in 1934
In 1936 electoral rolls they can be found at 444 High St, Gardiner/Prahran, living with a Mary Ann Watson.

Seems likely the person in the electoral roll might be his mother. Looking at births in 1896 with mother "Mary Ann" and given name James and location around Windsor (birth location from military service record) I found:

Aus_vic_bmd_births

year	registration number	gender	surname	first names	father	mother	birth place	other information
1896​	14223​	M	Brown	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)

There is also a variant of this record with the surname Blyth (i.e. birth recorded as James Watson Blyth, no father listed)

Mary Ann Brown was originally married to John Blyth and married James Watson in 1899 (Vic BDM Reg 1899/01268)

James Watson (father of the footballer) died in 1933 (which fits with Mary Ann living with Jim in 1934) and his death notice shows his various children / step-children:


Clearly states him as the father of James (even though he was not on the birth record - the Watson middle name was a fair clue!)

Looking at all of the birth records where Mary Ann Brown was the mother we have the below list - which matches up really well with the death notice above.
Aus_vic_bmd_births

year	registration number	gender	surname	first names	father	mother	birth place	other information
1882​	24938​	F	Blyth	Agnes Louisa	John	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1885​	5241​	M	Blyth	William George Hamilton	John	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1887​	4599​	F	Blyth	Evaline May	John	Brown Mary Ann	Malvern
1896​	14223​	M	Blyth	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1896​	14223​	M	Brown	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1898​	21437​	F	Blyth	Olive Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1898​	21437​	F	Brown	Olive Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1901​	5870​	M	Watson	George Malcolm	James	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1904​	8994​	M	Watson	Matthew Ockwell Manson	James Manson	Brown Mary Ann	Carlton North

The WWI service record for William George Hamilton Blyth has almost the same address as Jim Watson's - suspect this is just a typo but this pretty much confirms the family relationship.


So... an exact date of birth for Jim Watson will be obtainable from Vic BDM 1896/14223

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Couple of other things on Jim Watson:
According to this article played for East Brunswick Presbyterians before WWI service
This article states he attended Princes Hill state school and had lived in Carlton / Brunswick area from before WWI
The middle name Hamish appears to be a "later life" addition - first document I can find with it is from 1963

 

[35Daicos]

Couple of other things on Jim Watson:
According to this article played for East Brunswick Presbyterians before WWI service
This article states he attended Princes Hill state school and had lived in Carlton / Brunswick area from before WWI
The middle name Hamish appears to be a "later life" addition - first document I can find with it is from 1963

I did notice this in his war records:

That looks like J. H. is crossed out, and James written in.

 

[GreyCrow]

Looking on Ancestry & Vic BDM I reckon this one is solvable

In Jim Watson's service record is a letter from his parents granting him permission to enlist - signed by James & Mary Ann Watson. This made me suspect that the "Polly Hamilton" listed as mother in death record is incorrect...

Jim Watson married Marjory Thelma Skewes Bray (1899-1975) in NSW in 1934
In 1936 electoral rolls they can be found at 444 High St, Gardiner/Prahran, living with a Mary Ann Watson.

Seems likely the person in the electoral roll might be his mother. Looking at births in 1896 with mother "Mary Ann" and given name James and location around Windsor (birth location from military service record) I found:

Aus_vic_bmd_births

year	registration number	gender	surname	first names	father	mother	birth place	other information
1896​	14223​	M	Brown	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)

There is also a variant of this record with the surname Blyth (i.e. birth recorded as James Watson Blyth, no father listed)

Mary Ann Brown was originally married to John Blyth and married James Watson in 1899 (Vic BDM Reg 1899/01268)

James Watson (father of the footballer) died in 1933 (which fits with Mary Ann living with Jim in 1934) and his death notice shows his various children / step-children:
View attachment 1811777

Clearly states him as the father of James (even though he was not on the birth record - the Watson middle name was a fair clue!)

Looking at all of the birth records where Mary Ann Brown was the mother we have the below list - which matches up really well with the death notice above.
Aus_vic_bmd_births

year	registration number	gender	surname	first names	father	mother	birth place	other information
1882​	24938​	F	Blyth	Agnes Louisa	John	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1885​	5241​	M	Blyth	William George Hamilton	John	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1887​	4599​	F	Blyth	Evaline May	John	Brown Mary Ann	Malvern
1896​	14223​	M	Blyth	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1896​	14223​	M	Brown	James Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1898​	21437​	F	Blyth	Olive Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1898​	21437​	F	Brown	Olive Watson		Brown Mary Ann	Prahran	reg(R)
1901​	5870​	M	Watson	George Malcolm	James	Brown Mary Ann	Prahran
1904​	8994​	M	Watson	Matthew Ockwell Manson	James Manson	Brown Mary Ann	Carlton North

The WWI service record for William George Hamilton Blyth has almost the same address as Jim Watson's - suspect this is just a typo but this pretty much confirms the family relationship.
View attachment 1811908

So... an exact date of birth for Jim Watson will be obtainable from Vic BDM 1896/14223

That would explain a record I found of. George Malcolm death in 1934 with those names but dismissed it due to mother's name Brown

 

[ThePope]

Anyone have access to Adelaide Advertiser obituaries?
Harry Paynter, 1 game for Collingwood and father of John, doesn't have a date of death. A Harry James Paynter died in 2012 in Quorn, South Australia and was about the right age.
Ryerson lists 2 notices in the Advertiser that may help if they mention a son John.

Surname	Given Names	Notice Type	Date	Event	Age	Other Details	Publication	Published
PAYNTER	Harold James	Death notice	07AUG2012	Death	85	at Quorn Hospital	Adelaide Advertiser	11AUG2012
PAYNTER	Harold James	Death notice	16AUG2012	Publication			Adelaide Advertiser	16AUG2012

 

[35Daicos]

Anyone have access to Adelaide Advertiser obituaries?
Harry Paynter, 1 game for Collingwood and father of John, doesn't have a date of death. A Harry James Paynter died in 2012 in Quorn, South Australia and was about the right age.
Ryerson lists 2 notices in the Advertiser that may help if they mention a son John.

Surname	Given Names	Notice Type	Date	Event	Age	Other Details	Publication	Published
PAYNTER	Harold James	Death notice	07AUG2012	Death	85	at Quorn Hospital	Adelaide Advertiser	11AUG2012
PAYNTER	Harold James	Death notice	16AUG2012	Publication			Adelaide Advertiser	16AUG2012

Harry is definitely still going!: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
He's Collingwood's oldest living player. He is actually Henry Charles Paynter.

 

[ThePope]

Harry is definitely still going!: Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
He's Collingwood's oldest living player. He is actually Henry Charles Paynter.

Thanks for that.
I know the top 4 on this list are all mysteries, can you spot any that we've missed?

List of oldest Collingwood players without a date of death