Mitch Clark v Tyrone Vickery (Most Goals 2012)

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Richo83 said:
And most of those were either young talls who were very talented (Everitt, Ottens), or mature aged players who had already shown the ability to kick bags in the past (Salmon).

I think Vickery will kick more goals. I see Melbourne as still trying to share the load of goal scoring through the likes of Green, Howe, Watts, Jurrah and others. I suspect and hope Vickery will kick 40+ goals this year. Given he kicked 36 last year it's more than feasible. So Clarke will have to kick 40+ and I'm not sure he's required to do that. I suspect in Richmond, Hardwick wants a power forward combo sorta like Franklin and Roughead are.
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Salmon and Everitt were exceptions and account for half of the instances listed. Frawley is on record as saying Ottens was worked out by defenders, hence his declining goal tallies at Richmond. Likewise, Tippett is a super talent for his size, but his output is similarly on the wane - 55, 46, 31. Not sure about his ability in other positions.

I also think Vickery's future lies as a ruckman, but at his age it makes little sense to sacrifice him against the battle-hardened pro's.
 
^ Why?

If you asked two questions seperately, you'd come up with two quite different answers.

- Who will have the better year?
- Who will kick more goals?

Most would feel that Clark will have a better year than Vickery for various reasons.

Many would feel that Vickery would kick more goals.

Why would Melbourne supporters prefer the latter to the former?
 

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BlueTouchPaper said:
^ Why?

If you asked two questions seperately, you'd come up with two quite different answers.

- Who will have the better year?
- Who will kick more goals?

Most would feel that Clark will have a better year than Vickery for various reasons.

Many would feel that Vickery would kick more goals.

Why would Melbourne supporters prefer the latter to the former?
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Why? and what various reasons?

Is it because he is almost 3 years older, played nearly twice as many games, 3 extra pre-seasons, and was paid way over the odds for his actual ability?

Considering Vickerys rise as a player last year and the fact they both ended with a goal average of 1.6 each, and ruck average Vickery 7.1 to Clarke 4.8, I would say Vickery has way more upside for the better year, not to mention a superior mid-field to deliver to him and oppositions second and third tier backs lining up on him.
 
There is no difference, other than a figment of imagination.

Clark has not stagnated, he has, in fact regressed (unbeknownst to you, it appears). But that means nothing for the future.

Almost every positive you apply for Vickery, you can also apply for Clark.

Both are high draft picks, both have a tonne of scope for improvement on their previous seasons, etc.
However Clark has a many more positives which do not apply to Vickery than the contrary.

You have given those reasons.

Further to this, Clark has produced a season which Vickery, simply, has not - albeit in different roles. Whilst its perfectly convenient to postulate, the truth is, every time a player gets closer to that 'elite' or simply 'very good' bracket of players, the next step is 10 times harder than the previous.

Clark has proven how close he can get.
 
BlueTouchPaper said:
^ Why?

If you asked two questions seperately, you'd come up with two quite different answers.

- Who will have the better year?
- Who will kick more goals?

Most would feel that Clark will have a better year than Vickery for various reasons.

Many would feel that Vickery would kick more goals.

Why would Melbourne supporters prefer the latter to the former?
Click to expand...

I thought it is pretty obvious why one would hope he'd kick more goals than Vickery. He is on a lot more coin and plays the same role as Vickery......A KPF.

Disagree, I think most neutral fans feel Vickery will have a better year and kick more goals.
 
smasha said:
That's the beauty of Richmond.

Lots of players noone knows about.

WE will do pretty good this year I feel.

Richmond supporters deserve it.
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Got to love the eternal optimism of Tiges supporters, look forward to it being dented when they get smashed by 10 goals+ by us in round 1.

Clark should get more goals being the focal point at Melbourne, Vickery's rubbish.
 
BlueTouchPaper said:
^ Why?

If you asked two questions seperately, you'd come up with two quite different answers.

- Who will have the better year?
- Who will kick more goals?

Most would feel that Clark will have a better year than Vickery for various reasons.

Many would feel that Vickery would kick more goals.

Why would Melbourne supporters prefer the latter to the former?
Click to expand...

Clark was recruited to be a focal point up forward, if Vickery kicks more goals he has had a better season then Clark, simple as that.
 
Waite a Sec said:
Got to love the eternal optimism of Tiges supporters, look forward to it being dented when they get smashed by 10 goals+ by us in round 1.

Clark should get more goals being the focal point at Melbourne, Vickery's rubbish.
Click to expand...

Hmm...Jan 2012, let me see, first computer for the child is it?
 

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Clark should, but I reckon Vickery will. I wouldn't discount the fact it will be Clark's first season with his new club and teammates and they themselves will be adapting to a new game plan. I get the feeling Big Vick is ready to kick on.
 
Dont know how Clark will go but I'm confident Vickery will kick at least 40 this year barring an injury setback.

If Clark can do that then all power to him.
 
Clark is ridiculously disappointing as a forward and I can't see him turning it around (although is still young enough to do so). Also, while he has been drafted with the aim of playing as a key forward, if Jamar goes down again he will be playing half his game time in the ruck, no question.

Vickery appears more natural and won't get the best defender with J-Roo in the side.

Unless Richmond fall in a hole again when they appear on the brink of a finals birth, I predict Vickery will get about 10-15 more goals this season.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Salmon and Everitt were exceptions and account for half of the instances listed. Frawley is on record as saying Ottens was worked out by defenders, hence his declining goal tallies at Richmond. Likewise, Tippett is a super talent for his size, but his output is similarly on the wane - 55, 46, 31. Not sure about his ability in other positions.

I also think Vickery's future lies as a ruckman, but at his age it makes little sense to sacrifice him against the battle-hardened pro's.
Click to expand...

Is that really the case, or is it just because most guys that tall are usually thrown into the ruck if they are any good, and thus lose the opportunity? Anyone who is that size and can play football well enough to hold down a key spot is usually given a ruck position, as that makes a side better.

I mean, Salmon left Essendon partly because he wanted to play ruck and Sheedy didn't give him enough of a chance. He then stopped kicking goals when he was at Hawthorn because of that (making Hawthorns team of the century IIRC).

Everitt stopped kicking goals when he started rucking full time, not because he couldn't kick them. He kicked 22 in 1999 and had ~20 HOs a game. He kicked 40 in 2000 and had ~12 HOs a game. Then he kicked 28 goals and had ~30 hitouts a game in 2004, when he was 30. I'm sure he could have kicked a few more if he was forward all game.

Brad Ottens is similar. He stopped kicking as many goals sure, but his hitouts started going up...

And you say Kurt Tippett has dropped off, but he's also played 24, then 22, then 18 games for those 55/46/31, while his side has dropped down the ladder.

In 2011 Tippett played 5 games rucking, for 7 goals (4 v GC), and 13 games forward, for 24 goals. Had he played 22 games forward he would have kicked 40 at that average, in a horror year for Adelaide.

Correlation is not causation.

I would speculate the reason Clark hasn't kicked that many goals in any year is more to do with the face that Brisbane have been pretty average, and that Clark isn't a very good forward. Little to do with his height at all.
 
lamaros said:
Is that really the case, or is it just because most guys that tall are usually thrown into the ruck if they are any good, and thus lose the opportunity?
...
Click to expand...

Very tall players usually lack the pace to get out on a lead, the really strong hands to consistently take contested marks in the forward line, and the mobility to create opportunities for themselves when the ball hits the ground. As they get older and fill out, they also tend to lose what spring they have. They become predictable and easily planned against, except when pinch-hitting. Sandilands is an example; a monster of a man and a quality player, his height should theoretically make him hard to stop up forward. But nearing 30 and after ~170 matches, he is yet to score more than two goals in a game.

I watched Mark Lee swap ruck duties with Michael Roach and kick 9 goals at full forward. Once.

Of the 45 bags of 6 or more goals by 200cm+ players, Paul Salmon has 25, Everitt 6, Matt Rendell 4, Tippett, Ilija Grgic and Michael Byrne 2 each. For all his precocious talent and copybook kicking style, Brad Ottens posted 6 goals once in his career, despite starting many games up front.

Correlation is not causation, sure, but I formed this opinion long ago after watching various super-talls lose what effectiveness they had in front of goal. The observation/theorising came first, and the figures were researched merely to confirm them, which is the correct way to use statistics.

As for Clark, well yes, we are essentially saying the same thing. He can take a startling grab on occasion, and I've seen him evade smaller players on the gather and turn, but he hasn't shown an ability to score goals consistently. No surprise that his standout season to date was spent on the ball.

lamaros said:
Little to do with his height at all.
Click to expand...

You're twisting my contention there. All I'm suggesting is that very tall players rarely make very good forwards, Clark or no Clark.
 
Ron The Bear said:
Probably the first semi-positive thing I've seen you post about Richmond. :p
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You obviously haven't seen me post about Jack Riewoldt then. I've gone to bat for that player quite a few times on these boards. Dustin Martin, Alex Rance and Cotchin get my praise too. But let's be honest, you haven't had a lot to be positive about in recent times :cool:
 
Monkey King said:
You obviously haven't seen me post about Jack Riewoldt then. I've gone to bat for that player quite a few times on these boards. Dustin Martin, Alex Rance and Cotchin get my praise too. But let's be honest, you haven't had a lot to be positive about in recent times :cool:
Click to expand...

All good Monkey, I think Ron's only joking :)
 

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Mitch Clark v Tyrone Vickery (Most Goals 2012)

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