Player Watch Nathan Kreuger (Delisted 2024)

[sr36]

Cameron’s job was essentially to give enough of a contest that Gawn had an incentive to keep hitting to his preferred/easier side rather than letting him get cute. Beating him or even matching him was unnecessary. Mischief managed.

I think it was more attacking than that. When White went through his images of stoppage positioning and concluded that we were set up for Gawn to win the hitout and to nulliffy that, he missed Nick Daicos's movement. Whilst the set up helped to nullify Gawn's HTA, it also resulted in space to provide an exit route for Nick when he moved through and collected the ball at the ruckman's feet as well as space for Cameron to hit loose balls into the direction Nick was going to head - a situation where Nick is king. We had blockers to help protect that space for Nick to run into and Cameron to hit the ball into , as well as numbers in Gawn's hitout zone to reduce Gawn's strength.

 

[RobJD]

People really overrating the need for a genuine second ruck in here. All we need from a second ruck is a contest. Then we do what we did against Melbourne and Gawn. Assume we’ll lose the hitout and set up accordingly. Yes, it’s nice to have a second ruck who can act as a first ruck, but it doesn’t outweigh what Freddy brings to the table as a forward/ruck imo, both from an offensive and forward defensive perspective.

The value of a competitive second ruck was really clear in the final 5 - 10 minutes of the GF: not sure we win from that position if we didn't have a relatively fresh Cox competing against a spent McInerney. Maybe one of the reasons for our ability to win the tight games is our ruck - that said, maybe we wouldn't have as many tight games with a more flexible tall forward like Kreuger.

 

[manicpie]

I think it was more attacking than that. When White went through his images of stoppage positioning and concluded that we were set up for Gawn to win the hitout and to nulliffy that, he missed Nick Daicos's movement. Whilst the set up helped to nullify Gawn's HTA, it also resulted in space to provide an exit route for Nick when he moved through and collected the ball at the ruckman's feet as well as space for Cameron to hit loose balls into the direction Nick was going to head - a situation where Nick is king. We had blockers to help protect space for Nick to run into and Cameron to hit the ball into , as well as numbers in Gawn's hitout zone to reduce Gawn's strength.

This is a very good description of what took place and takes place most weeks. This is why Fly said we encourage a hard tag on Nick. They are already one midfielder down at every stoppage, which we exploit by having an extra around stoppages. We have done incredibly well without Pendles and JDG there. We haven't been smashed around centre bounce clearances all year.

 

[sr36]

This is a very good description of what took place and takes place most weeks. This is why Fly said we encourage a hard tag on Nick. They are already one midfielder down at every stoppage, which we exploit by having an extra around stoppages. We have done incredibly well without Pendles and JDG there. We haven't been smashed around centre bounce clearances all year.

Yeah, tagging at stoppage means the other team can dictate positioning - I don't think teams have any other choice regarding Nick though - he's too good.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

The value of a competitive second ruck was really clear in the final 5 - 10 minutes of the GF: not sure we win from that position if we didn't have a relatively fresh Cox competing against a spent McInerney. Maybe one of the reasons for our ability to win the tight games is our ruck - that said, maybe we wouldn't have as many tight games with a more flexible tall forward like Kreuger.

Yeah, Cox in the ruck was nice; having an actual forward to kick goals instead of Frampton would have been better still.

 

[Apex36]

The value of a competitive second ruck was really clear in the final 5 - 10 minutes of the GF: not sure we win from that position if we didn't have a relatively fresh Cox competing against a spent McInerney. Maybe one of the reasons for our ability to win the tight games is our ruck - that said, maybe we wouldn't have as many tight games with a more flexible tall forward like Kreuger.

Maybe, maybe not, it’s all pretty speculative and people are going to have varied opinions as to the value of a stronger ruck vs a stronger forward. I’m in the stronger forward camp.

 

[Granit1962]

Yeah, tagging at stoppage means the other team can dictate positioning - I don't think teams have any other choice regarding Nick though - he's too good.

Such a tantalising thought, when you add DeGoey and Pendles back into the mix

 

[sr36]

Maybe, maybe not, it’s all pretty speculative and people are going to have varied opinions as to the value of a stronger ruck vs a stronger forward. I’m in the stronger forward camp.

Where it gets even more complicated than ruck versus forward is that they're both likely to more in some aspects of the others better role. Eg. Krueger should be able to offer more in stoppage follow up than Cameron. And Cameron offers a bigger pack marking threat than Krueger.

 

[Apex36]

Where it gets even more complicated than ruck versus forward is that they're both likely to more in some aspects of the others better role. Eg. Krueger should be able to offer more in stoppage follow up than Cameron. And Cameron offers a bigger pack marking threat than Krueger.

True, but Kreuger is a baby in that respect and he offers a pack busting threat as a bonus.

 

[mocamagic]

The value of a competitive second ruck was really clear in the final 5 - 10 minutes of the GF: not sure we win from that position if we didn't have a relatively fresh Cox competing against a spent McInerney. Maybe one of the reasons for our ability to win the tight games is our ruck - that said, maybe we wouldn't have as many tight games with a more flexible tall forward like Kreuger.

Definitely agree with your first assertion.

 

[sr36]

True, but Kreuger is a baby in that respect and he offers a pack busting threat as a bonus.

Plus I got my big talls guys confused and was trying to talk about Mason - not Cameron

 

[Brad Goodman]

Not many of the good teams are going in with two genuine rucks at the moment.

For arguments sake let’s say there are currently four main flag contenders: Sydney, Carlton, GWS and us.

Grundy and Briggs both ruck mostly solo.

Carlton are 2-4 when playing DeKoning and Pittonet together. 7-0 when it’s TDK doing it by himself (I have a toddler, ”I can do it by myself” is her favourite sentence right now).

A fit and firing Cox can be a game changer, but it’s definitely a conundrum as to whether he’s best 23 from a structure point of view.

 

[Apex36]

Plus I got my big talls guys confused and was trying to talk about Mason - not Cameron

Yeah I got that dw about it. Although your mistake was still correct. Cameron is a much better contested mark than Mason is.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Cox gives Cameron a serious chop out WITHOUT conceding Ruck effectiveness in the way Kreuger would.
We aren’t eroding our 2 Ruck strategy, which has proven so successful.
Kreuger is mobile enough to stay fwd and experiment with 3 talls fwd.
His ground game ensures we don’t compromise defensive pressure greatly.

The essential piece of the two ruck puzzle is the assumption that cox contributes as a forward. If he doesn’t do that ( and his forward form has been well down this year) …. Then the whole concept is open for debate.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

His kamikaze approach which contributed to injury has been dialed back considerably ( after counseling from Moore as revealed in the SEN interview) so there definitely is optimism around an injury free run.

That said he nearly became a paraplegic post siren last week just celebrating our win

 

[No SPIN]

The essential piece of the two ruck puzzle is the assumption that cox contributes as a forward. If he doesn’t do that ( and his forward form has been well down this year) …. Then the whole concept is open for debate.

At this point Kreuger would need to improve his Ruckwork dramatically to justify replacing Cox.
I just can’t see it.
Cox at his best if far more valuable to our game plan.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

At this point Kreuger would need to improve his Ruckwork dramatically to justify replacing Cox.
I just can’t see it.
Cox at his best if far more valuable to our game plan.

Not sure I agree. If Kreuger can manage say 2 goals per game to coxs say one, then what we lose in ruck might be worth it. Especially if that opens up opportunities for Mihocek

Also depends how much ruck time Kreuger might actually need. He could job share with frampton for example and Cameron spend more time on ball.

 

[DopeMaster]

Maybe, maybe not, it’s all pretty speculative and people are going to have varied opinions as to the value of a stronger ruck vs a stronger forward. I’m in the stronger forward camp.

Agreed, a player capable (or more likely) to contribute 2-3 goals trumps a negligible hit out advantage in 10-20% of ruck contests.

 

[DopeMaster]

Was encouraging in his VFL game prior to AFL selection to see Krueger, in his ruck spells, dropping back and taking a few intercepts. If he can bring that to his AFL game it elevates him clearly above Cox as an option IMO.

-More of a goal kicking threat
-Chases like a small forward when the ball hits the deck
-Crashes packs

Vs Cox
-Better in ruck rotations
-more of a marking threat around the ground? (Debatable, he’s very easily moved under the ball).

Plus, Krueger has played 10 games and is v young for a tall. Plenty of scope for improvement there. Not so much for Cox. That said, I understand the discussion is who is best in the here and now for this season.

Let’s just hope his injuries are in the past and we get to continue the debate.

 

[stormskye]

At this point Kreuger would need to improve his Ruckwork dramatically to justify replacing Cox.
I just can’t see it.
Cox at his best if far more valuable to our game plan.

Cox hasn’t been at his best for a long time. Forward of the ball at least. That’s why kreuger has entered the conversation. There’s no point playing cox to be only a second ruck. He’s needs to be a ruck/forward. On current form, he isn’t

 

[domus]

Maybe, maybe not, it’s all pretty speculative and people are going to have varied opinions as to the value of a stronger ruck vs a stronger forward. I’m in the stronger forward camp.

You can always manufacture goals- as you saw tonight with Geelong-without a genuine ruckman in the team your chances of winning are greatly diminished. In finals I'd suggest you need two genuine rucks as most contenders have more than one option. Those stoppages are so important and if your second ruck is a much smaller forward filling in for five minutes a good ruckman can do untold damage, particularly at forward line stoppages.

 

[domus]

Cox hasn’t been at his best for a long time. Forward of the ball at least. That’s why kreuger has entered the conversation. There’s no point playing cox to be only a second ruck. He’s needs to be a ruck/forward. On current form, he isn’t

Krueger had a good start against Melbourne but was very quiet last week. He is still far from being a genuine option if we have Checkers, Coxy and McStay all back in action in 4 weeks' time.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Maybe, maybe not, it’s all pretty speculative and people are going to have varied opinions as to the value of a stronger ruck vs a stronger forward. I’m in the stronger forward camp.

It's dependent on how in form the 2nd ruck or the forward is. Cox's form hasn't been great and it's going to be hard coming back and playing good footy after a knee injury so I'm all for giving Kreuger a shot. I did love and miss the in form Cameron/Cox combo in 2022.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

At this point Kreuger would need to improve his Ruckwork dramatically to justify replacing Cox.
I just can’t see it.
Cox at his best if far more valuable to our game plan.

I would agree, however Cox coming back from injury might not be great.

 

[Ironmonger85]

I would agree, however Cox coming back from injury might not be great.

Last year Cox was in his best form right after coming back from his spleen injury, as well as after having a few weeks in the vfl before finals.