News Corp and Telstra will sell Foxtel in a US$2.2bn (A$3.4bn) deal, the companies announced on Monday.

[Bjo187]

Does a third team in an already full market actually add any viewers?

I never went out of my way to watch a Crows game when I lived in Adelaide.

When you consider what's left of Perth after West Coast and Freo, then WA3 and Canberra have pretty similarly sized markets.

You'd also hope in a place like Canberra they'd get their games on 7 main if they got their own team, instead of the current situation of getting the 7 Sydney feed.

Although in saying that, 7 don't even put half west coast and Freo games on 7 main in Perth, it's pathetic, they aren't helpful at all in trying to grow the game, ch 10 was so much better and that was back 15 years ago.

 

[sherb]

So they should, soccer is a lame yankee name for it

The term soccer originated in England.

 

[sherb]

Pays to read the post more carefully it seams, didn't take in the "Australian" part.

My point is it should be called football, not soccer.

Aussie rules is obviously the only Australian Football. I really only ever call it footy anyway, maybe the AFL should lean into that.

Football is a generic term that refers to any of a number of sports involving kicking/handling a ball.

And there are quite a few of them - Association Football (Soccer), Australian Rules Football, Gaelic Football, American Football, Rugby League Football, Rugby Union Football, Rugby League Football, Canadian Football, Touch Football and probably more.

No one of these sports exclusively owns the term "football" - although at a supporter level the term is used locally to describe people's preferred code. Eg to me, football is Australian Rules, to other people in Sydney it would be Rugby League. To yet others it would be soccer. And so on.

Australian Soccer trying to co-opt the term was basically a marketing ploy to try to lift the game's profile here, because the soccer types simply can't understand why it isn't the major football code in the country. So they want to pretend and promote that it is, via terminology.

Mind you, they can't mind the "soccer" designation too much, given the national team is still called the "Socceroos". They are having a bit each way there.

 

[GC2015]

Does a third team in an already full market actually add any viewers?

I never went out of my way to watch a Crows game when I lived in Adelaide.

When you consider what's left of Perth after West Coast and Freo, then WA3 and Canberra have pretty similarly sized markets.

You think Perth is full with two teams?

I think there's definitely room for a third AFL team in Perth. It's not like every single person in their 2m+ population is either a West Coast or Freo fan and even if they were, there will naturally be some that drift away from the Dockers/Eagles if a third WA team is established, like we saw when the Suns entered the AFL and Brisbane's membership went down. Look at what happened when the Dolphins entered the NRL in a time where people were saying it was a market completely dominated by the Broncos and no one would switch to the Phins. Two years in and the Dolphins have a pretty good supporter base averaging the 6th highest crowds in the league and that was while the Broncos were also recording record membership levels. I think you'd see something similar happen again if the NRL decided to base a third team in Brisbane. Plenty of room for another NRL team in Brisbane and for a third AFL team in Perth IMO.

 

[Senor M]

You'd also hope in a place like Canberra they'd get their games on 7 main if they got their own team, instead of the current situation of getting the 7 Sydney feed.

Although in saying that, 7 don't even put half west coast and Freo games on 7 main in Perth, it's pathetic, they aren't helpful at all in trying to grow the game, ch 10 was so much better and that was back 15 years ago.

Does it really matter if a game is shown on 7 compared to 7mate? Both channels have HD versions and everyone knows how to use a remote to change a channel.

The people of Perth should be happy to get the majority of their local teams games on FTA

 

[Bjo187]

Unlikely to happen, but the ideal for the afl is to have a new Perth franchise to sure up that market and have a small Victorian club relocate to Canberra.

That's a much better balance then, of 11 interstate, 1 regional Vic and 8 Melbourne teams, with no area of significance not represented in the league. It could stay at those 20 for the next 30 year's.

20 clubs is already too much, so we need to have the league and it's distribution complete when we go to that number. Only doing one of Perth or Canberra, doesn't achieve that on its own.

 

[Bjo187]

Does it really matter if a game is shown on 7 compared to 7mate? Both channels have HD versions and everyone knows how to use a remote to change a channel.

The people of Perth should be happy to get the majority of their local teams games on FTA

Yes it does make a huge difference because games on secondary channels rate around half of what they do on the main channel.

To give you an idea, on my tv guide 7 mate is on page 4, I rarely even flick down that far to see what's on there. It's also the perception of lack of importance of something when it's shoved off to a secondary channel.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

You think Perth is full with two teams?

I think there's definitely room for a third AFL team in Perth. It's not like every single person in their 2m+ population is either a West Coast or Freo fan and even if they were, there will naturally be some that drift away from the Dockers/Eagles if a third WA team is established, like we saw when the Suns entered the AFL and Brisbane's membership went down. Look at what happened when the Dolphins entered the NRL in a time where people were saying it was a market completely dominated by the Broncos and no one would switch to the Phins. Two years in and the Dolphins have a pretty good supporter base averaging the 6th highest crowds in the league and that was while the Broncos were also recording record membership levels. I think you'd see something similar happen again if the NRL decided to base a third team in Brisbane. Plenty of room for another NRL team in Brisbane and for a third AFL team in Perth IMO.

Canberra Pear and others know that I'm a follower of Canberra / ACT region being the 20th team over the alternatives out there.

But with the DAZN move now, the other benefit that WA3 (and beyond that possibly) could have other than what GC2015 has stated in previous posts is the different timezone that Western Australia operates and that being advantageous for hosting more prime-time matches in Perth at night as well as meaning more footy in WA and reduce travel load for such clubs.

You can see it happening now in the AFL with the occasional double headers on Friday with the MCG and Perth Stadium / Adelaide Oval hosting and I can see that growing more in the future as the competition reaches 20 teams and beyond. As well as that, it could mean you can have an afternoon match (12.50pm), twilight match (3.45pm), evening match (6.30pm) on the east-cost and then late night match in Perth fixtures at 9.00pm but would be played at 6.30pm in WA all exclusive on DAZN for national and international audiences.

While I don't see any changes happening from the AFL til 2031 at the earliest with team / competition format though, the AFL will do anything for more money and it wouldn't surprise me if broadcasters would like more teams represented in WA, NSW & QLD while reducing the amount of clubs in Victoria.

Hence why North Melbourne, St. Kilda and possibly Western Bulldogs supporters should be worried from this news and beyond as the AFL tries to gain an international audience.

 

[Senor M]

Yes it does make a huge difference because games on secondary channels rate around half of what they do on the main channel.

To give you an idea, on my tv guide 7 mate is on page 4, I rarely even flick down that far to see what's on there. It's also the perception of lack of importance of something when it's shoved off to a secondary channel.

You still use a TV guide?? Are you posting from 1999?

I don't know anyone under the age of 60 that still uses a TV guide.

There are multiple examples of where sports on multichannel out rate entertainment content on a “main channel”. Look back at the last Ashes or Wimbeldon

 

[Bjo187]

You still use a TV guide?? Are you posting from 1999?

I don't know anyone under the age of 60 that still uses a TV guide.

I've got foxtel it has a million channels so of course I flick through the pages on screen to see what's on there, which also takes in fta and I'm well under the age of 60. I would assume most people watching tv flick through the on screen guide, how else do you know what's on in the now?

There are multiple examples of where sports on multichannel out rate entertainment content on a “main channel”. Look back at the last Ashes or Wimbeldon

But it would still rate less than if the same event were on the main channel. There is a huge catalogue of evidence to this, particularly in Brisbane and Sydney that AFL games on the main channel rate much higher than when on the secondary ones.

 

[Canberra Pear]

You think Perth is full with two teams?

Maybe not "full" in a crowd sense, but probably pretty full from a broadcasting sense.


The main game plan for WA3 seems to be to scrape fans from West Coast or Freo. Fine for crowds, but these are already AFL fans watching footy every weekend. A third team doesn't really add much to the market for broadcasting.

like we saw when the Suns entered the AFL and Brisbane's membership went down.

I don't think WA3 and the Gold Coast are equivalents. Gold Coast literally gave a whole new city a team to cheer for, and they played 70km away. And a literal different TV market.

WA3 games will most likely be played at Optus and represent a market that already has two teams.

Look at what happened when the Dolphins entered the NRL in a time where people were saying it was a market completely dominated by the Broncos and no one would switch to the Phins. Two years in and the Dolphins have a pretty good supporter base averaging the 6th highest crowds in the league and that was while the Broncos were also recording record membership levels. I think you'd see something similar happen again if the NRL decided to base a third team in Brisbane. Plenty of room for another NRL team in Brisbane and for a third AFL team in Perth IMO.

I'm a big advocate for having a second team in cities. I think the two-team rivalries benefit both teams.

The only cases I can think of for third teams entering is in the A League. And Western United and Macarthur have been duds, and in my opinion, weakened the original derbies. Both Sydney and Melbourne would've been better sticking to two teams.

I'm sure a third Perth team will tread water perfectly fine, but they will be a minnow by West Coast and Freo standards.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

I'm sure a third Perth team will tread water perfectly fine, but they will be a minnow by West Coast and Freo standards.

Depends on if the AFL and future broadcasters want WA3 to come, which averages initially 25-30k (half-full stadium) and is considered a minnow compared to West Coast and Fremantle standards or Canberra/ACT joins the competition and the club averages 15-20k (full stadium) with the new redevelopments of Manuka Oval happening within this decade.

If we are looking at which option would improve the player and supporter pool more: Number 2 is far more superior.

However, the AFL always look for more ways to grab more money in their pockets and alongside the future international broadcasting markets wanting a slice of the financial pie as well, wouldn't be surprised if they persuade the AFL to create 3rd teams in those states (SA, WA, NSW, QLD) while regional cities and towns get stuck with secondary markets for current clubs or relocated Victorian teams possibly.

 

[BigFrizz36]

It's interesting (and changing) times in the world of pay TV and streaming services.

Today, for the first time, Netflix paid for wnd televised 2 NFL games on Christmas Day in the U.S. Clearly they are serious about getting into sport, you can only guess as to how much they paid Beyonce to do the half time concert.

In a couple of weeks Netflix are running WWE Monday night Raw for the first time.

Clearly Netflix have an appetite for increasing their amount of subscribers via sports. It will take time for that to filter through to Australia but eventually there will be multiple holders of sporting rights for each sport, particularly those that can command large viewer figures.

 

[Senor M]

I’ve got foxtel it has a million channels so of course I flick through the pages on screen to see what's on there, which also takes in fta and I'm well under the age of 60. I would assume most people watching tv flick through the on screen guide.

Telling us that you still use Foxtel directly is evidence that your viewing habits are not reflective of the majority of Australians under the age of 60 (if you are under the age of 60).

“Flicking” through television isn't something most most young people do these days mate.

 

[Bjo187]

Telling us that you still use Foxtel directly is evidence that your viewing habits are not reflective of the majority of Australians under the age of 60 (if you are under the age of 60).

“Flicking” through television isn't something most most young people do these days mate.

Well yeah I know it's dying, but still over 1 million households have the box, I like controller in hand instead of using my phone to stream. What are you and all the cool kids doing now where you have zero use for the guide, but know what's on?

 

[boncer34]

Well yeah I know it's dying, but still over 1 million households have the box, I like controller in hand instead of using my phone to stream. What are you and all the cool kids doing now where you have zero use for the guide, but know what's on?

You can stream on TVs now. Its a brave new world out there for you to explore

 

[Bjo187]

You can stream on TVs now. Its a brave new world out there for you to explore

No shit I do that all the time. I'm still waiting to know though, how people know what's on across the entire tv at the time without accessing the guide. So I'm talking about currently on tv, including fta?

 

[GC2015]

Maybe not "full" in a crowd sense, but probably pretty full from a broadcasting sense.

Disagree. I think the broadcasters would like to have the ability to run late games in Perth on Friday and/or Saturday night if possible and a third team allows that because of the time difference.

The main game plan for WA3 seems to be to scrape fans from West Coast or Freo. Fine for crowds, but these are already AFL fans watching footy every weekend. A third team doesn't really add much to the market for broadcasting.

There will still be new fans/members that come along, even if most are existing fans/members from the Eagles and Dockers. It's still a gain.

I don't think WA3 and the Gold Coast are equivalents. Gold Coast literally gave a whole new city a team to cheer for, and they played 70km away. And a literal different TV market.

WA3 games will most likely be played at Optus and represent a market that already has two teams.

Fair point. Gold Coast is not comparable to a third Perth team in that sense. I just used it as an example to illustrate that people do switch teams when a new option becomes available.

I'm a big advocate for having a second team in cities. I think the two-team rivalries benefit both teams.

The only cases I can think of for third teams entering is in the A League. And Western United and Macarthur have been duds, and in my opinion, weakened the original derbies. Both Sydney and Melbourne would've been better sticking to two teams.

I'm sure a third Perth team will tread water perfectly fine, but they will be a minnow by West Coast and Freo standards.

Then start a second team in Brisbane for the 20th licence and forget about Canberra. Right? The Gold Coast is an entirely separate market (see your quote above) so you can't say they are playing that role in Brisbane. The two team city model suggests there should be another one started in Brisbane as the 20th licence and you claim you're a big advocate for it. So you must be in favour of a second Brisbane team being started.

 

[Giant YoYo]

Regarding the Wanderers, reckon once WSW start having decent results again, there could be an increase in attendance but even Adelaide Utd (my team) only got nearly 11k on last Friday night against Sydney FC and would expect something similar against your mob this upcoming week as well in Adelaide. Like you said though, Western Sydney is a minefield for soccer over there so wouldn't be surprised for crowds to reach 15-20k for finals but even that is on par with what the Giants get in their home debry and finals matches so GWS are on-par and were going well tbf until COVID hit and halted the momentum but are back on track right now.

I think this is a much more reasonable comparison and it's a much better way to look at. Compare it (if one must) to the Giants market/region they're operating in rather than other footy clubs across the nation.

One thing I do want to ask though and it applies to every sport (other than NRL possibly) but why isn't there more affordable prices for tickets out there to watch Western Sydney teams play like the Giants and Wanderers out there as families are much more likely to have lower socio-economics and benefits over people who live in the major cities like Sydney and Melbourne and I would have thought it would be common sense for the AFL to do that.

Providing affordable ticket prices or deals in the AFL around Western Sydney would at least help attract the casual supporters in NSW such as overseas immigrants and would boost crowds steadily again like they were pre-COVID while more importantly detracting the supporter base from the Eels, Tigers and Panthers in particular in those regions.

This is an excellent point to raise and one I'm not quite sure of. The pricing for footy games doesn't seem to be quite reflective of the market they're in during the growth stage.

I don't really have an answer for it but I think cheaper pricing for a few years before tapering it off and increasing once they have larger crowds would've been good.

If not that for whatever reason, general admission seating in much better seating locations (e.g. up on the wing or up high on the second level on the wing) outside of in demand games (opening round/derby). The sight lines at the stadium are pretty good but I think giving people a much nicer view helps.

GA behind the posts at Engie doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid. Actually, I've still never sat there for a game at Engie, lol.

The GA seating I can get for the majority of games in Melbourne I attend is much superior than the offering here. Has much more of a wow factor than behind the posts at Engie, lol.

 

[Senor M]

Well yeah I know it's dying, but still over 1 million households have the box, I like controller in hand instead of using my phone to stream. What are you and all the cool kids doing now where you have zero use for the guide, but know what's on?

I know when my preferred sporting teams are on because they promote start times on social media & on the sports respective app / website.

Most TV shows I watch on television have consistent timeslots; plus like sporting events normally promote start times on social media. Any changes to start times are either advertised during a commercial at the end of the previous episode or is due to daylight savings changes (here or in the northern hemisphere).

If I don't have something I know I want to watch “live” then I’ll watch something on a streaming service.

“Flicking” through channels on a remote seems redundant when there is so much content available to watch

 

[Cubs2Lions]

This is an excellent point to raise and one I'm not quite sure of. The pricing for footy games doesn't seem to be quite reflective of the market they're in during the growth stage.

I don't really have an answer for it but I think cheaper pricing for a few years before tapering it off and increasing once they have larger crowds would've been good.

If not that for whatever reason, general admission seating in much better seating locations (e.g. up on the wing or up high on the second level on the wing). The sight lines at the stadium are pretty good but I think giving people a much nicer view helps.

GA behind the posts at Engie doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid. Actually, I've still never sat there for a game at Engie, lol.

The GA seating I can get for the majority of games in Melbourne I attend is much superior than the offering here. Has much more of a wow factor than behind the posts at Engie, lol.

Just feel like the expansion clubs in Gold Coast and Western Sydney would greatly benefit from game-day ticket and membership prices being slightly decreased compared to the average cost in the competition to help increase crowd attendance and membership numbers of both clubs until their numbers start to greatly improve.

Granted (as of now), AFL tickets are fairly reasonably priced compared to what other sports charge supporters these days around the world such as the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL leagues in the USA as well as the domestic and international soccer competitions in Europe.

However, the two expansion clubs should work more closely with the AFL in providing locls with much more affordable or enticing ticket/membership offers for the average Joe out there with no interest of sport to come and watch a Suns or Giants match rather than a Titans or Eels / Panthers game in the NRL.

It doesn't have to be massive deals either like it could just be as simple as reducing prices by $5-10 or even buy 2 get 1 free especially for matches that might not have much interest and I reckon if this was used, crowd attendance for both clubs could jump to 15-20k every match and membership numbers could jump to 40-45k or even 50k+ possibly.

The expansion clubs (especially GWS) should also continue to keep going back to the community time and time again and hosting kid clinics at the Western Sydney junior leagues and providing kids greater opportunity to see their favourite players and be able to attend AFL matches free of charge / discounted prices (like AusKick).

As a child, my club and age group was given the opportunity to attend a Port Adelaide match as part of the AusKick initiative in the late 2000s at Football Park and while the Power didn't convert me that day (sorry Canberra Pear, I tried ), I had an amazing time as that was my first match I watched live and always loved going to the footy ever since.

Just food for thought really though because if the AFL wants to make the sporting code the number 1 sport in NSW & QLD, they need to try a lot harder IMO to make the Suns and Giants a lot more enticing for locals to spend their time and money to watch and support their local team out there.

Will this ever happen in our lives, of course not as the AFL only cares about is $$$$$$$$$$

 

[Bjo187]

I know when my preferred sporting teams are on because they promote start times on social media & on the sports respective app / website.

Most TV shows I watch on television have consistent timeslots; plus like sporting events normally promote start times on social media. Any changes to start times are either advertised during a commercial at the end of the previous episode or is due to daylight savings changes (here or in the northern hemisphere).

If I don't have something I know I want to watch “live” then I’ll watch something on a streaming service.

“Flicking” through channels on a remote seems redundant when there is so much content available to watch

Yeah this is the exact point though isn't it, you know it's on and are a rusted on fan that's already committed, so you don't require the sport to require any extra attention to catch your eye. To pick up say the casual sports fan in nsw and qld, it's gotta be on 7 main, advertised during the news and front and centre on the first page of the tv guide for people with a fleeting interest to watch. This is reflected in the ratings being up to 50 percent higher when the games are on the main channel there. Also the reason why advertising is significantly higher on the main channels.

My usual process is, I'll flick the tv on, go to the 'all channels guide' on fox, hit the down button 3 or 4x (pages) to see everything that is on currently, then if there is nothing on fox (I get all the channels for $55 these days so it's worthwhile), then I'll flick over to YouTube and watch the options from stuff that i know I like. If nothing there, then I'll go to Netflix etc etc. But the initial guide check is to catch anything I might have interest in that I wasn't expecting to be on (usually local stuff), literally takes 20 seconds. I reckon there would be a decent number of people still do this kinda thing and that's why it's important to be front and centre on page 1 and on the main channel (as the news on the main channel is still the top rating program in each city, 80 to 90 percent of nights in Australia).

 

[Bjo187]

Just feel like the expansion clubs in Gold Coast and Western Sydney would greatly benefit from game-day ticket and membership prices being slightly decreased compared to the average cost in the competition to help increase crowd attendance and membership numbers of both clubs until their numbers start to greatly improve.

Granted (as of now), AFL tickets are fairly reasonably priced compared to what other sports charge supporters these days around the world such as the NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL leagues in the USA as well as the domestic and international soccer competitions in Europe.

However, the two expansion clubs should work more closely with the AFL in providing locls with much more affordable or enticing ticket/membership offers for the average Joe out there with no interest of sport to come and watch a Suns or Giants match rather than a Titans or Eels / Panthers game in the NRL.

It doesn't have to be massive deals either like it could just be as simple as reducing prices by $5-10 or even buy 2 get 1 free especially for matches that might not have much interest and I reckon if this was used, crowd attendance for both clubs could jump to 15-20k every match and membership numbers could jump to 40-45k or even 50k+ possibly.

The expansion clubs (especially GWS) should also continue to keep going back to the community time and time again and hosting kid clinics at the Western Sydney junior leagues and providing kids greater opportunity to see their favourite players and be able to attend AFL matches free of charge / discounted prices (like AusKick).

As a child, my club and age group was given the opportunity to attend a Port Adelaide match as part of the AusKick initiative in the late 2000s at Football Park and while the Power didn't convert me that day (sorry Canberra Pear, I tried ), I had an amazing time as that was my first match I watched live and always loved going to the footy ever since.

Just food for thought really though because if the AFL wants to make the sporting code the number 1 sport in NSW & QLD, they need to try a lot harder IMO to make the Suns and Giants a lot more enticing for locals to spend their time and money to watch and support their local team out there.

Will this ever happen in our lives, of course not as the AFL only cares about is $$$$$$$$$$

I agree with all this, although I think they already do these deals, kids get in free etc. It's the membership prices for the rusted on fan that seem expensive for new and smaller clubs, which is strange. I also thought all auskick kids in Sydney get a free membership to their club of choice?

On the players, the giants players famously do more visits than any other club engaging in the community, the afl need to invest more out there themselves though, they did add 2 million extra to the area this year and have created a hub in Blacktown I think, but they have neglected the area for too long, it all fell apart when covid hit and gill couldn't be f'd anymore.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

I agree with all this, although I think they already do these deals, kids get in free etc. It's the membership prices for the rusted on fan that seem expensive for new and smaller clubs, which is strange. I also thought all auskick kids in Sydney get a free membership to their club of choice?

On the players, the giants players famously do more visits than any other club engaging in the community, the afl need to invest more out there themselves though, they did add 2 million extra to the area this year and have created a hub in Blacktown I think, but they have neglected the area for too long, it all fell apart when covid hit.

So what should happen is the expansion clubs need to charge those supporters less for memberships so that the locals continue supporting the club no matter on-field results.

With the Auskick, think that they do that now though with all the kids around the country having membership packages these days, which is a brilliant initiative by the AFL and it has changed a lot since my day.

Regarding the hub, hopefully the AFL and GWS continue to promote the team and sport in Blacktown and the Western Sydney region as it's such a large catchment area yet the AFL continue to play second and even third fiddle with other sports in the area like RL or soccer.

Why I mentioned these issues in this thread though is as the AFL prepares to join an international broadcaster in the not so distant future such as DAZN or Amazon or whatever, ticket and membership prices are going to continue to become much more unaffordable for the average Joe out there and it will start putting casual supporters off especially in developing markets in NSW & QLD so the AFL shouldn't sacrifice supporter happiness for financial greed.

 

[4Seasons]

If that's the case then wouldn't they want greater reach throughout Australia, instead of being so Melbourne centric like the league is right now? For example, having a second AFL team in Brisbane (the third biggest market in Australia) would guarantee weekly games at the Gabba and opens all kinds of doors for greater exposure. Isn't that a better outcome than hammering the Melbourne market with a fifth or sixth game on the same weekend? You can still do/expand on blockbuster games like ANZAC Day without having a fifth game in Melbourne in front of a poorly attended Marvel crowd.

I can see what you mean about smaller markets probably not being of great interest to the new broadcasters and for that reason I think Perth probably just became the favourite for the 20th licence ahead of a smaller markets like Canberra or Darwin. Tasmania are lucky they secured their licence before this deal went through.

What are you talking about?
Foxtel is the big company here, so they bought that.
It's not that complex to understand.

These are people are buying into markets for tourism, I clearly said that.

Why are you mentioning Tasmania, like it's a global Mecca?