Next Built for purpose AFL ground - Sydney

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Climate change poses challenges for footy in Sydney.

The SCG (the little G) has always been an inadequate ground for footy, including for telly coverage

The Giants ground is problemmatic.

30 years from now there will be a third Sydney based team. (Melbourne will have a maximum 7 teams)

Time for a purpose built stadium with a roof in Sydney. Could be combined with redevelopment of Randwick or Rosehill.

 

[TWLS]

Climate change poses challenges for footy in Sydney.

The SCG (the little G) has always been an inadequate ground for footy, including for telly coverage

The Giants ground is problemmatic.

30 years from now there will be a third Sydney based team. (Melbourne will have a maximum 7 teams)

Time for a purpose built stadium with a roof in Sydney. Could be combined with redevelopment of Randwick or Rosehill.

Re the racecourse developments -Gil a while back -About4/ 5 years ago travelled up there and spoke to the Sydney racing bosses and got some sort of agreement to develop the Randwick Or Rosehill tracks to add an AFL ground.
It never went anywhere because the Sydney racing establishment (Incl politicians) eventually canned it. It makes you wonder why the racing outfits even considered it originally.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Aren't they looking at rooving Accor?

 

[kranger]

I thought I would continue this chat from the Attendance Thread in this old thread which seems suitable for the topic. I typed a big post out on my phone then accidentally deleted it just as I was about to post it. So frustratingly I’ve typed this up a second time (including finding the relevant quotes).

Fully agree, we have 1 home game on the Gold Coast over an 8 week period right in the middle of the season. It just kills all the momentum of building a culture of attending matches here that we desperately need.

There needs to be 11 games on the coast to keep that attendance culture going throughout the year.

Giants have the same issue, they kill off any attending habits at the start of the season by choice, by not playing in Sydney for months.

The one game at Blacktown in 2012 had the same crowds as last weekend (7k). Surely between there, ACCOR (could play Pies or Blues and get 20k - 25k) and the SCG, they can play all of their games in Sydney.

I agree, I think playing across a few locations (in Sydney) would also help them to attract new fans. Henson park I like too, that gets a big turnout for aflw games.

That one game in Blacktown was literally their second home game and novelty value alone of playing the second game made it possible.

If we're talking second venues, surely a slightly upgraded Henson Park is the answer, despite the inner west being Swans territory.

Agree.

As another poster mentioned, we have a similar situation at the Giants.

We have 1 game at Engie stadium in 3 months at the start of the season. It makes it near impossible to build that attendance culture and kills off any momentum that could build throughout the season.

When we're back at Engie with regularity in the second half of the season, we have 5 home games left and the season is over. 5 regular home games may be enough to gain a little momentum after the extended hiatus but it's too short of a timeframe before the season is over, IMO.

Currently the Giants have a contract till at least 2032 to play 3 AFL games in Canberra (with an option of a 4th game if parties agree) and a pre-season game.

Probably best just to avoid Accor/Stadium Australia.

Whilst the three games GWS has hosted at venue has achieved GWS three highest home and away crowds. However they were against local team Swans who would have the greatest pulling power for attendance.

Besides from the inaugural game, the others aren’t much bigger of an attendance than the capacity of Sydney Showground.

That means having 3/4 of the stadium empty, which is not a good experience.

View attachment 1995907

That is another thing they need to fix. All western suburbs should be in the Giants zone. Bankstown is zoned to Swans. Rediculous.

Not by choice they have to vacate the ground for the Royal Easter Show for a few weeks!

Yes I mean they could use another Sydney venue in that time, but prefer to be missing from the state for a long time.

It’s almost like there are no other AFL grounds in Sydney. Plenty of options to play games closer than Canberra.

Henson Park could easily be made an AFL standard venue if you assume GWS isn't potentially getting more than 15,000 or whatever to a home game.

I agree Henson park would be very good, it gets good crowds and having a presence there will attract new fans for the giants in a footy friendly area. I wonder what the difference in requirements is between an afl level venue and an afl w one. Because the W play there all the time.

You would need a new stand with media, corporate and change rooms. 5k undercover seating would boost capacity over 10k which is plenty.

Agree 100% already in its current undeveloped state is listed as having a capacity of 30,000 and would not need a huge amount of funding maybe $100 million would be enough for starters to get it up to AFL standard - the AFLW already play matches there and get good crowds so there is no reason that GWS would do any worse!

It would also take it up to the NRL with their old school suburban stadium strategy.

It might be what the Sydney public prefer anyway. Looking at their history, they show up to the smaller suburban venues, but nobody goes to the bigger stadiums and complexes in their other sports, the stadiums are basically empty. The Giants would be well served in taking some of these 'easy wins' in the background whilst doing the harder yards in gws itself.

I mapped out AFL venues in Sydney and where Parramatta is. At the end of the process I think it is best for GWS to move out of the Showgrounds to a single venue they can use all season. Playing a handful of games at random grounds around the city means patrons have to change their travel behaviour, and whilst possibly be easier to get to for a select few, it would be harder for a greater majority.

Get the Swans and Giants women’s teams to play there too. It would give the venue atleast 20 events a year.



Blacktown is too far west for most of the population. SCG is too far east and too big. Stadium Australia (next to Showgrounds) is too big. And Showgrounds is the venue that is unavailable for a month.

Henson Park is well central for the train network but too far east for the target market. Whilst between two rail corridors, it is unfortunately 1km away from all four nearest train stations which is just too far of a walk.



The ideal location would be somewhere along the T1 rail corridor near a station and hospitality venues. Showgrounds and Stadium Australia are complained about for travel due to having to transfer at Lidcombe, so being on the T1 removes that extra travel leg.



A possible location, is this oval and driving range 400m south of Flemington Station. That station is next to the Sydney Markets and will be served by the T2 and T3 rail lines (in the new train map), and can be served by the T1 for events. As you can see, it is still pretty close to the Showgrounds.

 

[Walshawk]

I would be interested to know where the Giants attendees come from. I would suspect that very few would be coming from west of Parramatta. Or even west of Homebush. With the train service to Showgrounds being upgraded soon, I still reckon that is the best bet. Hensen Park should be rezoned as Giants territory, and given a facilities upgrade so it can host a game or two around Easter. Or just play at Blacktown, ACCOR or SCG for two games.

Nobody is funding a new ground for them, so make the most of what exists and just use it properly.

P.S. the second team in Sydney should have been North Sydney, playing six games at a reconfigured North Sydney Oval, and six @ SCG. Footy is popular in four parts of Sydney - inner west, eastern beaches, north shore and the north-west (Ryde). All bar inner west were traditionally Union territory, so with the decline of that sport and North Sydney being axed from the NRL, north of the harbour/Parramatta River would have made for a better divide with the Swans and would be doing much better now than GWS.

 

[kranger]

A couple more possible locations.

 

[kranger]

I would be interested to know where the Giants attendees come from. I would suspect that very few would be coming from west of Parramatta. Or even west of Homebush. With the train service to Showgrounds being upgraded soon, I still reckon that is the best bet. Hensen Park should be rezoned as Giants territory, and given a facilities upgrade so it can host a game or two around Easter. Or just play at Blacktown, ACCOR or SCG for two games.

Nobody is funding a new ground for them, so make the most of what exists and just use it properly.

GWS is the AFL’s attempt to win the minds in new territory, specifically out west which will be where the majority of people live in Sydney in the future. So they need to be out west, and not just consolidating efforts in the heartland area out east/north.

Perhaps Lidcombe Oval in a staged progression is the answer.

Lidcombe Oval - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Start playing some pre-season games.

Then get facility upgrades and play AFLW there.

Then more upgrades to host the games when Showgrounds is not available and GWS leave Canberra.

Then more upgrades and move all the games there.

 

[Bjo187]

Good post. I don't see the point in moving from the showgrounds to a location a really short distance away though, I think if they are ever going to move permanently it needs to be to Parramatta, that's Sydney's second city, it even has a mini cbd these days. Incompetence that they didn't put it there in the first place and went to Blacktown which is the equivalent of putting an AFL team in pakenham instead of Dandenong or Springvale.

In saying all that, getting funding for a new afl stadium in Sydney with all the nrl media already staining the clubs existence there? Forget it. Henson park is a good option for some cheap wins and to attract some new fans, or if not a game or two at the scg to pick up the overhang of scg members that get locked out of every swans game.

it needs to be a dual strategy of growing in gws, but also picking up some easier wins in easier areas along the way, the swans are getting too big anyway.

I also agree with walshawk though, the kangaroos relocating and playing out of a redeveloped North Sydney oval would have been a major success and it was an easier sell than the gold coast.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Odd to omit the only ground in Sydney that GWS are actually looking at getting upgraded into a match venue, namely Tom Wills Oval, but... well, no, that's it. Just odd.

 

[kranger]

Odd to omit the only ground in Sydney that GWS are actually looking at getting upgraded into a match venue, namely Tom Wills Oval, but... well, no, that's it. Just odd.

Fair point. If we are only discussing an existing facility in Sydney that is only to be used when Showgrounds is closed for Easter, and allows GWS to get out of Canberra, then Tom Wills Oval is a good option.

It means for travel habits it basically the same for patrons, except just turning right instead of left out of the Homebush Train Station. Can even use the same car parks.

I left it off my list, to find a location that avoided the need for that extra train transfer at Lidcombe Station.

But it is walkable without a transfer, just need some improved pedestrian links to get more direct to the nearby train stations.

 

[Cmarsh]

I would be interested to know where the Giants attendees come from. I would suspect that very few would be coming from west of Parramatta. Or even west of Homebush. With the train service to Showgrounds being upgraded soon, I still reckon that is the best bet. Hensen Park should be rezoned as Giants territory, and given a facilities upgrade so it can host a game or two around Easter. Or just play at Blacktown, ACCOR or SCG for two games.

Nobody is funding a new ground for them, so make the most of what exists and just use it properly.

P.S. the second team in Sydney should have been North Sydney, playing six games at a reconfigured North Sydney Oval, and six @ SCG. Footy is popular in four parts of Sydney - inner west, eastern beaches, north shore and the north-west (Ryde). All bar inner west were traditionally Union territory, so with the decline of that sport and North Sydney being axed from the NRL, north of the harbour/Parramatta River would have made for a better divide with the Swans and would be doing much better now than GWS.

Alot of those areas you mention are already where alot of swans support is from. Would have been too encroaching to place a second team in North Sydney.

 

[Walshawk]

Alot of those areas you mention are already where alot of swans support is from. Would have been too encroaching to place a second team in North Sydney.

That is the whole point. Take 10k fans off the Swans and Sydney’s second team has 20k fans and the Swans 30k. Build them both up from there.

The best thing to come from the entry of the Giants is that is has united the parts of Sydney that follow footy and boosted the Swans support.

 

[glengowan]

How long is Engie Stadium out of action for the Easter Show? This year the show went from March 22 - April 2. There was Opening Round and Round 1 at Engie on the weekend prior to the Show. On the 2 weekends the Show was on, the Giants played away and had a bye. Then it was Gather Round. They then played April 13th, a home game in Canberra. If it wasn't for the Canberra deal, would they not be able to have played that game at Engie? And if that was the case, why would the Giants look for another venue?

 

[threenewpadlocks]

How long is Engie Stadium out of action for the Easter Show? This year the show went from March 22 - April 2. There was Opening Round and Round 1 at Engie on the weekend prior to the Show. On the 2 weekends the Show was on, the Giants played away and had a bye. Then it was Gather Round. They then played April 13th, a home game in Canberra. If it wasn't for the Canberra deal, would they not be able to have played that game at Engie? And if that was the case, why would the Giants look for another venue?

It takes time for the ground to be ready after the show. It's out of action for 6-7 weeks.

Wider regards with Sydney - a lot's simpler in hindsight now - it wasn't so obvious that Parra was going to be a western sydney CBD in the late 2000's when the team was being planned, nor would it be so obvious that the Swans would clearly increase and dominate support in the inner west and inner north of Sydney - Buddy had only just kicked 100 goals, and was a clear reason why the Swans became a bigger club in the last 15 years. And the selling of introducing GWS was not to cement or split support or build support in central areas or areas where footy is being built, it was to make GWS representative of 2+ million people. Whether or not that was right or wrong is up for debate, but a lot of these ideas don't mesh with the logic behind why the team was created and sold to the other clubs and the footy public in the first place. And it's a fair argument that a GWS playing games in the inner west or playing games at the SCG does very little for a new Auskick group of kids in some random suburb deeper in the West of Sydney.

Issue is that they don't seem to be as nimble with retooling GWS as it should be - there is no whisper of any structural changes to the Giants until at least the Canberra deal ends in 8 years, which is hell of a long time for the AFL to subsidise sub-10k crowds.

 

[legend166]

It takes time for the ground to be ready after the show. It's out of action for 6-7 weeks.

Wider regards with Sydney - a lot's simpler in hindsight now - it wasn't so obvious that Parra was going to be a western sydney CBD in the late 2000's when the team was being planned, nor would it be so obvious that the Swans would clearly increase and dominate support in the inner west and inner north of Sydney - Buddy had only just kicked 100 goals, and was a clear reason why the Swans became a bigger club in the last 15 years. And the selling of introducing GWS was not to cement or split support or build support in central areas or areas where footy is being built, it was to make GWS representative of 2+ million people. Whether or not that was right or wrong is up for debate, but a lot of these ideas don't mesh with the logic behind why the team was created and sold to the other clubs and the footy public in the first place. And it's a fair argument that a GWS playing games in the inner west or playing games at the SCG does very little for a new Auskick group of kids in some random suburb deeper in the West of Sydney.

Issue is that they don't seem to be as nimble with retooling GWS as it should be - there is no whisper of any structural changes to the Giants until at least the Canberra deal ends in 8 years, which is hell of a long time for the AFL to subsidise sub-10k crowds.

Parramatta has been seen as the second CBD for ages though.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Parramatta has been seen as the second CBD for ages though.

A lot of planning, development and official government policy regarding this wasn't developed or implemented until the 2010's. It was obviously always the place most likely, but it wasn't a certain or known thing that Parra would be the centre it was, and therefore be better as a central location for GWS, way back in 2009 when they were planning the team.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

30 years from now there will be a third Sydney based team. (Melbourne will have a maximum 7 teams)

It'll have the same 9 it has now.

 

[Colonial]

I’ve always said the Easter show was an
excuse and it was more about the sponsorship coin and the easier boost to the Academy than the, naturally, harder efforts of Western Sydney.

You ask how?
Well.

2 games during the Easter show would cover it and not make it such a gap, as such I would have the Swans home Derby played then as 1 game, then I would have a double header at Accor.
Before the rage happens.
We could make it celebrating the history of the sport in Sydney, get all the grassroots clubs to come to Olympic Park and put up stalls to get signups for youth and older and have other such events, while both Sydney clubs play a game. Think it could work.

If a heartland like Tassie needs a full time team, then if the AFL want to win over a region that is just as parochial about being themselves you would think they would also need to be full-time.
No disrespect intended to our Capital brothers and sisters.

 

[Colonial]

It'll have the same 9 it has now.

10, Geelong is no less Melbourne than Penrith is Sydney.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

10, Geelong is no less Melbourne than Penrith is Sydney.

So. 9.
We are and never have been a Melbourne club.

 

[Colonial]

A lot of planning, development and official government policy regarding this wasn't developed or implemented until the 2010's. It was obviously always the place most likely, but it wasn't a certain or known thing that Parra would be the centre it was, and therefore be better as a central location for GWS, way back in 2009 when they were planning the team.

Olympic park as it stands is the best location transport wise.

All lines from the West, South West, North West and Inner West go through Lidcombe and so the Olympic Park Shuttle, which then goes to pretty much the front door of the precinct.
Parra not so much. Nowhere available to put a new stadium anywhere near transport.
Add the multiple car parks next to the M4, a light rail on the way.
No precinct in Sydney has better access.

Only thing is outside the stadiums though that is getting better every year.

 

[Colonial]

So. 9.
We are and never have been a Melbourne club.

Penrith is the same distance away by car. They are Sydney.
Puff out the chest as much as you want.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Penrith is the same distance away by car. They are Sydney.
Puff out the chest as much as you want.

I'll excuse your ignorance.
Apology accepted in advance.

 

[Colonial]

I'll excuse your ignorance.
Apology accepted in advance.

None will be incoming. There is no ignorance.
Just some chest beating from yourself being very parochial about your turf.

 

[The 747]

Penrith is the same distance away by car. They are Sydney.
Puff out the chest as much as you want.

Not about chest puffing, Geelong is not a part of Melbourne. Both cities are growing toward each other but there is still a decent rural corridor separating them.