Different eras, but if Nicki emulates Skilton without featuring in finals, then he would be in GOAT discussions
Long way to go though
Player Watch Nick Daicos - Can he be the GOAT?
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Different eras, but if Nicki emulates Skilton without featuring in finals, then he would be in GOAT discussions
Long way to go though
- Mar 29, 2019
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- 18,286
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- Collingwood
so did Judd
Again , ALL knowledgeable and informed football pundits do not 100% agree with your opinion . Get over yourself
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- #3,981
2nd in AFLPA MVP
3rd in AFLCA Coaches Award
3rd in Brownlow
Despite playing three fewer games than the winners of each of the awards.
Returned from potentially season ending injury to play a very good Preliminary Final and a great Grand Final.
As a 20 year old in his second season.
But, but, but AFL Player Ratings....
Oh yes, because they take account of when you lose a contest, or make an error, or, everything.
It is funny how the player ratings often seem to "over-rate" the same players you under-rate, and vice versa. I think you may need to reset your fadgorithm to take account of every action a player does like the player ratings, and also watch every minute of every game like the player ratings, and also get everything recorded and assessed by unbiased people like the player ratings, before you dismiss them in such regal fashion.
Fadge notices who kicks goals and who gets possessions and is perplexed that other people seem to notice there is more to winning games of football than that. But there is Fadge.
I could put a percentage on that differential, but for that to happen, Daicos has to actually register a stat in that category. Being an elite mathematician, you would already know this.
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- #3,984
Yeah, OK. Daicos was the 13th best player in the competition in 2023. Because Player Ratings.Oh yes, because they take account of when you lose a contest, or make an error, or, everything.
It is funny how the player ratings often seem to "over-rate" the same players you under-rate, and vice versa. I think you may need to reset your fadgorithm to take account of every action a player does like the player ratings, and also watch every minute of every game like the player ratings, and also get everything recorded and assessed by unbiased people like the player ratings, before you dismiss them in such regal fashion.
Fadge notices who kicks goals and who gets possessions and is perplexed that other people seem to notice there is more to winning games of football than that. But there is Fadge.
- Mar 29, 2019
- 11,036
- 18,286
- AFL Club
- Collingwood
where did he rank on GRAND FINAL day?
In order, these were the 10 top ranked midfielders by coaches votes in 2023
Butters
Bontempelli
Daicos
Petracca
Neale
Gulden
Rozee
Serong
Anderson
Merrett
Then by pLaYER rAtINGs:
Bontempelli
Liberatore
Butters
Petracca
Anderson
Oliver
Merrett
Davies-Uniacke
Gulden
Green
The second list doesn't pick out AA selectees Serong and Rozee. It does really, really rate LDU and Oliver's performances highly. They played 14 and 15 games respectively, so still 2/3 of a season. I'm not sure any experts or spectators thought the only thing stopping them getting AA selections was the games missed, but this is what Player Ratings would have you believe.
Libba was apparently the second best player in the comp in 2023. I rate Libba, but that's a little silly. Anderson into the top 5 is an eyebrow raiser as well. Aaaannnnd....we're missing the Brownlow medalist.
Player "Grain of Salt" ratings...for good reason.
Butters
Bontempelli
Daicos
Petracca
Neale
Gulden
Rozee
Serong
Anderson
Merrett
Then by pLaYER rAtINGs:
Bontempelli
Liberatore
Butters
Petracca
Anderson
Oliver
Merrett
Davies-Uniacke
Gulden
Green
The second list doesn't pick out AA selectees Serong and Rozee. It does really, really rate LDU and Oliver's performances highly. They played 14 and 15 games respectively, so still 2/3 of a season. I'm not sure any experts or spectators thought the only thing stopping them getting AA selections was the games missed, but this is what Player Ratings would have you believe.
Libba was apparently the second best player in the comp in 2023. I rate Libba, but that's a little silly. Anderson into the top 5 is an eyebrow raiser as well. Aaaannnnd....we're missing the Brownlow medalist.
Player "Grain of Salt" ratings...for good reason.
- Thread starter
- #3,987
Ahead of the Norm Smith Medallist, according to AFL Player Rankings.
But that's no great achievement, as most players on the ground were rated higher than Hill (according to AFL Player Ratings).
Hang on I am confused. It seems we have a case of "Meow you see it, Meow you don't" in regard to the importance of Coaches MVP votes as an indicator of how well a player has played.
Meow you see it - if Daicos gets he 3rd most coaches MVP votes in the 2023 season when being completely fed by the Premiership team, having negligible scoreboard impact, and less than negligible contest impact, coaches votes are definitive.
Meow you don't - So if Dustin Martin gets at least roughly twice as many Coaches MVP votes per final played when compared to any other player we can locate, this doesn't mean he is far and away the best finals player we have seen.
Meow you see it - But if Dustin Martin finished outside the top x players in the Coaches MVP he has not had an "elite" season, and you say this is a good measure to use.
Meow you don't - But if the coaches vote Martin Richmond's BEST player in 8 separate seasons(same as Ablett for his clubs I think, more than Pendlebury, Judd etc) in the same award, this is not a good indicator of him being Richmond's best player in those seasons according to you, it pales in comparison to B & F voting.
You are all over the showroom on this. Which is it? You believe coaches votes are a strong guide, or you don't believe coaches votes are a strong guide? Or they are a strong guide if the answer is Daicos, but a shocking guide if the answer is Dusty?
No idea what this 5 year old level entry of a post actually is.
I've always used coaches votes averages (2.9 votes per game is a juicy cut off put that very much selects for elite midfielder seasons) and rankings (top 5 and 10) as evidence for elite midfielder seasons. You seem to be confusing inconsistencies with other posters who have said that nothing binary matters.
"Best Richmond player by coaches votes" is something only you care about. It isn't some kind of award. Just show me Martin's top 5 placements in the coaches votes where he competes against the whole competition. Thanks.
As far as his 3 great finals series, among his 5 poor/mediocre ones, I've always recognised them as being great. 16 finals isn't that many to play but that wasn't his fault. Well, it was in the sense he could've dragged his side to more finals in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2018 and 2022. And he could've taken his side to finals a few more years (e.g last year he left his run so late that Richmond were effectively already knocked out).
Don't want to call anybody out, but you called him out. What a pussy !
Did Martin even make Fadges top 50 coz I rate him higher than Dangerfield when both at their prime, every day of week including Sundays
Called me out?
You're not even aware of the context of the discussion, where he has mistakenly identified me as another poster (PhatBoy) who has said that nothing binary (like rankings on votes) matters. And even then, MR is referring to discussions outside of this thread that you weren't even aware of.
So...back in your box, when you literally have no idea what's going on.
Don't be a cry baby you closet collingwood supporter.
Also, "completely fed by a premiership team" much more reliably identifies Martin 2017-2020, especially in finals, where Richmond were far more dominant game to game than Collingwood were over the 2023 season. Yet you argued against this premise, again and again. Until it's Daicos who is in a non-dominant premiership side that scraped through each final. Then apparently he had it easy, while Martin's heroics in titanic battles like the 2019 grand final should be celebrated for centuries. Take Daicos out and Collingwood actually lose not just the grand final, but the prelim a week earlier so would not even make the last game. THAT is difference making.
For someone who lazily accuses others of being all over the shop, your inconsistencies are prevalent in every post.
No offence but I'd rather not continue conversing with someone who displays intelligence that would make a chimp cringe.
Actually there might have been a little offence. My bad.
Your opening sentence is total gold here Meow, keep it coming mate you are en fuego tonight.
So my post is 5yo entry level, but you didn't get it. Oh dear.
Mate you posted ad nauseum in the Dusty thread that "he wasn't even rated Richmond's best player in more than two seasons," due to B & F voting. It was pointed out to you there that this is no guide because of the way Richmond structure their B & F voting and the better guide is his 8 x finishing #1 Richmond player in the Coaches MVP....but you were not having it.
Now you are trying to deny it all, which will amuse all of is that followed those threads.
5 year olds can be erratic and poor at making logical points. Then again, so can geriatrics and I know which class you belong to. No offence.Your opening sentence is total gold here Meow, keep it coming mate you are en fuego tonight.
So my post is 5yo entry level, but you didn't get it. Oh dear.
Mate you posted ad nauseum in the Dusty thread that "he wasn't even rated Richmond's best player in more than two seasons," due to B & F voting. It was pointed out to you there that this is no guide because of the way Richmond structure their B & F voting and the better guide is his 8 x finishing #1 Richmond player in the Coaches MVP....but you were not having it.
Now you are trying to deny it all, which will amuse all of is that followed those threads.
Show me where I said he wasn't Richmond's best player for more than two seasons? Again you seem to be confusing arguments you have had with others, with arguments you think you have had with me. Time to take your pills, old boy.
In that thread you continually s**t your pants because I said Martin has had 5 definitively elite seasons (2 of them dragged to that status from fantastic finals series) instead of 10 or 11. And you absolutely simmered when it was pointed out Martin actually doesn't have stacks of seasons at 2.9+ coaches votes per game or finishing in the top 5/10 on the leaderboard compared to a few other champions.
Now you are crying once again under the guise that you are having a fantastic time and are highly amused. Never change, gramps.
You might want to drag up some footage of Dusty being completely fed in finals then. Be careful not to trip over his 22 contested possessions and 4 contested goals + assists in the 2017 Grand Final though, just as one example.
As to that,
Dusty finals - 182 contested possessions, 161 uncontested possessions.
Daicos finals - 37 contested possessions, 81 uncontested possessions.
This says nothing of the fact most of Daicos's "contested" possessions were in areas a lot less heavily defended than where Dusty was collecting his.
Stupid post by you. Learn to lead with your trumps, not lose unnecessary tricks by leading with the weakest parts of your hand.
22 "mostly looseball gets, which you have ridiculed Daicos over for padding his CP stats" CPs - yes. Against the might of a bunch of flakey Crows who didn't fire a shot after the first 1.5 quarters, then disappeared into the abyss for 7 seasons and counting. THIS is the sort of stuff you want a statue commissioned for.
We've already gone over how raw CP numbers don't tell the whole story. Daicos (especially on a back flank) and Martin (especially on a forward flank) CPs are not the same as Dangerfield or Selwood ones.
Addressed the issues so I'll take your "nothing" post as conceding defeat on this one.
Better luck next time. Try to start with something accurate. And maybe keep a log of who you have argued which points against. You are consistently saying "but you said this then and say this now" when the original interaction was with another poster entirely.
These are all signs of someone who is slipping just a little mentally. Which is understandable as the retirement phase drags on.
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