No love for lazers?

[Cousin of Daicos]

****ing hell, some of the replies in this thread make me want to claw my eyes out with a spoon

Watch the replay again and watch Dane Swan in the final minute in the contest with Gram.

Gram was MILES away from that contest. That was Swan's ball all the way and he second guessed himself. You see it in his step.

In a Grand Final mate, all contests have to be attacked in Dale Thomas/Nick Maxwell fashion.

 

[shawthing09]

Ed this is an honest to god question do you seriously think Beams or Davis or any player for any club in any grand final ever in the history OF THE WORLD, has rocked up on grand final day and then just went, nup can't be stuffed. The ball's over there can't be bothered going to get it, Here look's nice I'll just stand here and hope the ball gets to me. It's not about effort, or busting a gut.

Like I said it's much more likely to be about being to nervous, wanting it too much and over thinking / trying to hard and not being clear enough in the mind to just get yourself in the right place, then it is to be about just not wanting it.

 

[shawthing09]

Watch the replay again and watch Dane Swan in the final minute in the contest with Gram.

Gram was MILES away from that contest. That was Swan's ball all the way and he second guessed himself. You see it in his step.

In a Grand Final mate, all contests have to be attacked in Dale Thomas/Nick Maxwell fashion.

The way I remember it was Gram had the benift of hitting the ball at pace / coming with the flight and Swanny had to sit under it a bit. So had Swanny attacked the ball with the same pace and vigour as Gram he would have run directly under the ball and not been able to get to it anyway.

Super effort by Gram but Swannie couldn't have done the same.

 

[Scodog10]

You're kidding aren't you? Take a look at how Lenny Hayes attacked the footy on Saturday and ask yourself if any Collingwood player was even half as aggressive as he was. Where was the tackling pressure that was applied against the cats and the dogs in the other finals? Harry O'Brien was accused of dogging it by Danny Frawley, not by me.

I'm not having a go at anyone, what I'm saying is there were plenty of times when players hesitated when they should have gone hell for leather. Maybe they were just flat, having heard comments from Wellingham and Sidebottom during the week that's probably what it was.

 

[Thommo 42]

FFS, sometimes you play bad. There is ZERO chance there was a player on either team on the weekend not displaying 100% effort. It is insulting and stupid to suggest otherwise.

This is disgraceful stuff.

Sometimes you can try so hard and be so intense, and still nothing works. Not much you can do about it, but you sure as hell don't expect to be accused of making no effory by some keyboard warrior who bags his chosen club at every opportunity, but will no doubt celebrate any glory when it comes.

 

[Quicky]

Watch the replay again and watch Dane Swan in the final minute in the contest with Gram.

Gram was MILES away from that contest. That was Swan's ball all the way and he second guessed himself. You see it in his step.

In a Grand Final mate, all contests have to be attacked in Dale Thomas/Nick Maxwell fashion.

Sorry spesh but I think you need to watch the replay of that bit of play again. Swan was running at that ball full tilt because if he didn't he would have been beaten to the ball. The ball took a slight change of direction which put Swan off his line and made it look like he hadn't gone hard enough. This was because he had to slow to try and change his direction and stretch out to get to the contest. It had nothing to do with second guessing himself and everything to do with the cruel lottery of an oval ball.

 

[Thommo 42]

Where was the tackling pressure that was applied against the cats and the dogs in the other finals?

We made more tackles in the GF than we did in the previous 2 finals

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Something tells me with the relief etc he'd be celebrating in his own way as much as anyone. I reckon he'd be doing backflips.

Something like that

Ed this is an honest to good question do you seriously think Beams or Davis or any player for any club in any grand final ever in the history OF THE WORLD, has rocked up on grand final day and then just went, nup can't be stuffed. The ball's over there can't be bothered going to get it, Here look's nice I'll just stand here and hope the ball gets to me. It's not about effort, or busting a gut.

Like I said it's much more likely to be about being to nervous, wanting it too much and over thinking / trying to hard and not being clear enough in the mind to just get yourself in the right place, then it is to be about just not wanting it.

No one goes out to 'not try'. But I've played sport at various levels, and for these guys, not only is it sport, but it's job. You haven't had days where you wake up for work and think 'god I can't be f**ked today"?

So yeah, on those days when I play sport and I feel crap, I don't 'not try' but I also don't go in as hard as I would if I was pumped for the contest. Basically, not the same level of effort I normally would, or what is required.

Remember, we're dealing with humans here, not robots.

 

[Snag Breac]

My promise to Optimax expired on Saturday at 5.30pm when we didn't win.

The old Ed is back. I still think I've been relatively positive despite not being forced to be like I have.

I've been defending Collingwood a fair bit on the main board.

I think you've pulled up relatively well for a natural-born pessimist. Just hold the line until Saturday night and faith shall be rewarded.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Sorry spesh but I think you need to watch the replay of that bit of play again. Swan was running at that ball full tilt because if he didn't he would have been beaten to the ball. The ball took a slight change of direction which put Swan off his line and made it look like he hadn't gone hard enough. This was because he had to slow to try and change his direction and stretch out to get to the contest. It had nothing to do with second guessing himself and everything to do with the cruel lottery of an oval ball.

I saw the deviation. It's ever so slightly to Dane's right, but still not enough to throw him off that badly.

It also means it should have thrown Gram off his line too. Yet he got to that contest despite giving Swan probably a 15-20 metre head start.

Macaffer was sitting all on his lonesome over the top after Gram left him, I just believe Swan should have been harder at that contest, especially given he had back-up in Blair. That was just one of many match defining contests we lost.

 

[shawthing09]

I see your thinking re not just sport but a job but on Grand Final day that just doesn't count. No body rocks up to any grand final day, anywhere in the world, for any club, in any sport and just has a day where they are anything less then pumped. Especially anyone named Leon Davis playing for Collingwood. It would be like someone going into a meeting that would make them a legend and give them everything they've worked for their whole life and then "not being up for it" it just would not happen.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

I see your thinking re not just sport but a job but on Grand Final day that just doesn't count. No body rocks up to any grand final day, anywhere in the world, for any club, in any sport and just has a day where they are anything less then pumped. Especially anyone named Leon Davis playing for Collingwood. It would be like someone going into a meeting that would make them a legend and give them everything they've worked for their whole life and then "not being up for it" it just would not happen.

As I said, we're dealing with humans, not robots. You just don't know. You're making a big assumption about something that's very uncontrollable.

 

[smiddaz123]

As I said, we're dealing with humans, not robots. You just don't know. You're making a big assumption about something that's very uncontrollable.

Sorry, who's making the assumptions?

Human beings recognise the importance of the grand final. ffs, they've spent all year working towards the one game, and suggesting they just wake up on the day and plan can't be arsed is pretty laughable.

 

[Scodog10]

We made more tackles in the GF than we did in the previous 2 finals

That may be right, but the pressure stats in the paper tell a different story. They include tackles that do and don't stick and a lot of ours on the w/e didn't stick and prevent the saints players from releasing the ball. That was what was missing compared to the cats game, where we absolutely nailed them in every tackle we laid.

The majority of the players at the top of the list for pressure were St Kilda players whereas the week before the majority at the top were pies players. An example was L. Brown his pressure was down by almost half on what it was the week before and although he played a ripper game Thomas' was as well. The number one for pressure on the ground was Hayes who was ultra tough at the contest which is something we were lacking on the w/e. Unfortunately Ball is our best at this, that's why i love him, but he was well down on his usual output on the w/e.

 

[Quicky]

I saw the deviation. It's ever so slightly to Dane's right, but still not enough to throw him off that badly.

It also means it should have thrown Gram off his line too. Yet he got to that contest despite giving Swan probably a 15-20 metre head start.

Macaffer was sitting all on his lonesome over the top after Gram left him, I just believe Swan should have been harder at that contest, especially given he had back-up in Blair. That was just one of many match defining contests we lost.

It is if you are running at full tilt. I had the same response as you initially but the replay shows I was wrong. The other thing to note is that the ball turned into Grams direction so favoured him.

Sorry, who's making the assumptions?

Human beings recognise the importance of the grand final. ffs, they've spent all year working towards the one game, and suggesting they just wake up on the day and plan can't be arsed is pretty laughable.

Entire careers for some players. I just can't get this lack of motivation line, it doesn't ring true at all and is a massive stretch.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Sorry, who's making the assumptions?

Human beings recognise the importance of the grand final. ffs, they've spent all year working towards the one game, and suggesting they just wake up on the day and plan can't be arsed is pretty laughable.

So you haven't heard the words from Mick Malthouse himself talking a couple of times this year about the players being 'off'? When he said he felt they weren't 'up for it'?

Maybe you need to watch the side as closely as I do.

Hell, most of us were emotionally, and as a result physically drained by the lead up to that Grand Final, let alone the result. Imagine the players! Who's to say a few didn't wake up just drained from the build up?

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

It is if you are running at full tilt. I had the same response as you initially but the replay shows I was wrong. The other thing to note is that the ball turned into Grams direction so favoured him.



Entire careers for some players. I just can't get this lack of motivation line, it doesn't ring true at all and is a massive stretch.

Everyone is starting to change my words for me, which happens here A LOT.

I never said Beams had a lack of motivation. How could he? But such a young kid might have just become so emotionally and physically drained over the entire week, that he might just have woken up feeling spent before the siren even went to start play.

As a result, he just didn't(couldn't?) attack the ball the way he normally does. It's not necessarily a lack of effort on account of not caring, which is what most of the attackers in here are implying I meant. It could have been a lack of effort on account of maybe just being buggered for whatever reason.

 

[Suspense]

"There's a difference between having a bad game by normal standards, and not putting in any effort."

 

[shawthing09]

So you haven't heard the words from Mick Malthouse himself talking a couple of times this year about the players being 'off'? When he said he felt they weren't 'up for it'?

Maybe you need to watch the side as closely as I do.

Hell, most of us were emotionally, and as a result physically drained by the lead up to that Grand Final, let alone the result. Imagine the players! Who's to say a few didn't wake up just drained from the build up?

Ed let's put it this way right, You work at Macca's, you work at Macca's for years hoping to one day own your own fancy buger shop yourself. One day your boss comes in and tells you he will fund you opening your own resteraunt, it's all you've ever wanted. The catch is you have to make him one awesome burger, he has picked you and one other guy and the person with the best burger gets their shop. You practice for a week, sleepless nights etc, your drained by the end of it but you know it's just one burger.

What are the chances you don't put absolutely everything into making that the best burger ever?

Like I said far more likely you stuff up over doing it then just slapping the thing together and hoping.

(I know the analogy above is bizarre and rubbish but I started and got to far by the time I realised what non-sense I was on)

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Ed let's put it this way right, You work at Macca's, you work at Macca's for years hoping to one day own your own fancy buger shop yourself. One day your boss comes in and tells you he will fund you opening your own resteraunt, it's all you've ever wanted. The catch is you have to make him one awesome burger, he has picked you and one other guy and the person with the best burger gets their shop. You practice for a week, sleepless nights etc, your drained by the end of it but you know it's just one burger.

What are the chances you don't put absolutely everything into making that the best burger ever?

Like I said far more likely you stuff up over doing it then just slapping the thing together and hoping.

(I know the analogy above is bizarre and rubbish but I started and got to far by the time I realised what non-sense I was on)

I get the analogy, its actually pretty suitable, and in theory I agree, I just personally feel that it's not always going to turn out that way 100% of the time.

Beams is 20 years old. How many times have you heard players like Didak say "When I made my first Grand Final, I took it for granted and didn't realise how rare it is you get the chance to play in one"?

Since Beams has come in, he's played in 2 Prelims, and now 2 Grand Finals. Maybe he just doesn't realise the enormity of the situation he's in?

It's not like he's retiring tomorrow, and has to take this last chance.

@Suspense: Love the Mr.Squiggle blackboard. "Upside down upside down"

 

[Kirby]

^ LOL!

That's pretty bad shawthing!

 

[smiddaz123]

So you haven't heard the words from Mick Malthouse himself talking a couple of times this year about the players being 'off'? When he said he felt they weren't 'up for it'?

Being off does not mean they lacked effort, that's a ridiculous connection.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Being off does not mean they lacked effort, that's a ridiculous connection.

they're generally intrinsically linked.

It's one of the reasons you probably can't put in the appropriate amount of effort even if you want to.

I think you're still of the belief I'm saying he's weak, or doesn't care or something to that effect which isn't the case.

By the way, since I was using regular sport as an example earlier, I've seen plenty of cases where players force their way into a game, both at a professional level and at an amateur level. I've done it myself. Feel like shit and just do nothing for a half, but when you are naturally competitive, you get pissed off, and can turn it around.

Didn't see that from a lot of players, but saw it from many of the St.Kilda players. Does that mean anything? We'll find out Saturday.

But the Saints steely resolve troubled me on Saturday. I suspect for us to win this week, we'll need a repeat of the Prelim first quarter. If the Saints stay within a few goals this week, they'll have us on toast come the last quarter. We need to end the game quickly.

 

[lgarth80]

But the Saints steely resolve troubled me on Saturday. I suspect for us to win this week, we'll need a repeat of the Prelim first quarter. If the Saints stay within a few goals this week, they'll have us on toast come the last quarter. We need to end the game quickly.

I thought that the moment I left the ground and for a few hours on Saturday.

Then I watched the replay and saw that Gilbert's goal, that put them to within a goal of us, occurred with about 10 mins to go (elapsed time) in the 3rd.

With all the momentum, and much of the play, St Kilda in the last 40 mins beat us by a goal.

I'd normally back the opposition in a close game against us, and also we haven't shown a great capacity to chase sides down (Adelaide is the one exception but a good recent one).

If the Pies get their game together, we hopefully will not need to worry about the end of the game - a bit like when we played Geelong - but even if it doesn't end up that way, I am proud of the fact that against the odds our team fought the game hard.

I figure after how we got back in the game after the Goddard mark, the unspoken Magpies mental toughness came to the fore.

No one at Collingwood is saying anything about this, but it's a mantra at St Kilda, from the coach to the captain to every player. "we have mental toughness, we are much more mentally tough than Collingwood"

I am hoping that this is just St Kilda trying to get over why they weren't able to win a second consecutive GF after leading into time on, and that they are denying facts.

Interestingly I've hardly heard a St Kilda player say "Collingwood played well" or that we are a respected opponent (only Ross Lyon did directly after the game)

I'm thinking the Saints are trying to do the mind game thing this week, and hoping above hope that it will come a cropper just like the jealousy argument from Bomber Thompson.

 

[lgarth80]

And on the Beams discussion, not a doubt in my mind he will play.

This time not as a high half forward getting lost in the play.

I can see Beams being given a role this week to stick to a man and play some negating work.

Maybe Montagna for a half, to free up Thomas, something like that.

Certainly Beams needs a run in the midfield because most of the Magpies looked tired on the weekend, and Beamer could certainly give a few guys a much needed 5-10 minute chop out.

Certainty.