Non-AFL chat thread part 2

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I find all this hysteria amazing. Why all these pitchforks at dawn for a practice that has been going on for years and attracts only minor penalties from the ICC.

Smith could have solved this all by taking the South African (and Indian) approach of total denial of wrongdoing.

Why are we allowing lectures from Michael Vaughan (I wont hand back my OBE even though we had a systematic ball tampering process as detailed by Trestcothick), Stuart Broad (i wont walk despite smashing the ball straight to slips ) Fannie De Villiers (who confessed he applied numerous substances to the ball)?

If people fee so morally outraged then we should withdraw from ever playing the Saffers until they get rid of their twice convicted Captain!
 
ivan rassmussen said:
Norm and dogwatch, you both make good points, and I agree wholeheartedly about "best player is not always best choice for captain" (exhibit A: Riley Gryphon), and also Smith's career being permanently tarnished.

However, for perspective (not directed at either of you, btw, just a general observation), the current Saffer captain is a convicted ball-tamperer. So any of his comments in regards to this, which he already offered post-match, should be taken with a planet of salt. Not in the same ball-park as offences? Agree. But any Saffer player/official/supporter who makes sanctimonious condemnations, should very VERY careful with their wording. as the hypocrisy will poke people's eyes out with its blatancy.
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Actually he is a twice convicted ball tamperer the first time he used a zipper. That to me indicates someone who doesn't morally see anything wrong with it unless you get caught and btw Vernon Philander is also a convicted tamperer (with his fingernails).

I am not suggesting that this absolves the Aussies of any blame but having watched the first test where the Saffers got reverse swing within the first 15 overs all I could think of was "when in Rome..."
 
Bulldogs Legend said:
Why all these pitchforks at dawn for a practice that has been going on for years and attracts only minor penalties from the ICC.
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This is part of the problem. The ICC is way behind the times.

Ball tampering has only become a big issue since cricketers started to understand and master reverse swing (late 80s perhaps, certainly 90s). Prior to that the fielding side wanted to keep the ball in as good a condition as possible so that the new-ball (conventional) swing would last as long as possible. So any scuffing was usually done by spinners hoping to get a bit more bite on the pitch, but it was generally looked on as a minor issue.

There are no great penalties because the ICC has until recently been oblivious to (or has chosen to ignore) the extent of benefit that can be gained by doctoring the ball.

I'm hoping this will all spill out in the coming months. I don't agree that because it's been going on for years we should just shut up and accept it.

Let's hope the ICC is up for the challenge on its hands.
 

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dogwatch said:
This is part of the problem. The ICC is way behind the times.

Ball tampering has only become a big issue since cricketers started to understand and master reverse swing (late 80s perhaps, certainly 90s). Prior to that the fielding side wanted to keep the ball in as good a condition as possible so that the new-ball (conventional) swing would last as long as possible. So any scuffing was usually done by spinners hoping to get a bit more bite on the pitch, but it was generally looked on as a minor issue.

There are no great penalties because the ICC has until recently been oblivious to (or has chosen to ignore) the extent of benefit that can be gained by doctoring the ball.

I'm hoping this will all spill out in the coming months. I don't agree that because it's been going on for years we should just shut up and accept it.

Let's hope the ICC is up for the challenge on its hands.
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I don't deny that the ICC penalties are part of the problem but what I don't understand is why we think its our cricketers who have to be the sacrificial lambs to the greater good.

I think that this has given all the other countries a convenient out where they can all say it was just those nasty Aussies not all of us multiply convicted countries.

If CA or the Australian public want the ICC penalties changed then go for it but to do it unilaterally will have the counter effect of letting the others off the hook and the ICC will make no change.

Contrast the reaction in the SA media and public when Faf was caught compared to the hysterics taking place this week. The end result of this is we will end up playing by these gentlemens rules (whatever they maybe) and the other countries like India (Virat Kholi anyone?) and Saffers (Faf a multiple cheater) and England (Jimmy Anderson I was just cleaning the ball in between being passed the mints) and we will become the losers of world cricket.
 
Bulldogs Legend said:
I don't deny that the ICC penalties are part of the problem but what I don't understand is why we think its our cricketers who have to be the sacrificial lambs to the greater good.

I think that this has given all the other countries a convenient out where they can all say it was just those nasty Aussies not all of us multiply convicted countries.

If CA or the Australian public want the ICC penalties changed then go for it but to do it unilaterally will have the counter effect of letting the others off the hook and the ICC will make no change.

Contrast the reaction in the SA media and public when Faf was caught compared to the hysterics taking place this week. The end result of this is we will end up playing by these gentlemens rules (whatever they maybe) and the other countries like India (Virat Kholi anyone?) and Saffers (Faf a multiple cheater) and England (Jimmy Anderson I was just cleaning the ball in between being passed the mints) and we will become the losers of world cricket.
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I expect it will pan out like this:
  • S.Africa win the fourth test reasonably comfortably but surprisingly there are no dramatic levels of reverse swing from bowlers of either side.
  • CA completes it's investigation. Possibly a few more dragged in but at a minimum Smith and Warner get a 6 month ban. Bancroft something similar maybe a bit less. Not sure that Lehmann gets off.
  • CA announces some changes to procedures, code of ethics etc.
  • CA salvages what it can from the TV rights negotiations and from its direct sponsors. However this could be a hit that costs as much as $100m in sponsorship, broadcast rights, etc. That's a big reason why they can't be seen to go too easy on the ringleaders.
  • ICC waits until all of that process is complete and then starts a thorough review of the rules and enforcement re ball-tampering.
  • ICC announces new rules, new policing measures and a new scale of penalties re ball-tampering. Not retrospective.
So I don't think the Aussies will be "sacrificial lambs". In fact I think there are a few other senior test cricketers around the world who would be just a bit uneasy at the moment, especially if the ICC decides it will start poring over TV footage of recent international series. Some of the sanctimonious outpourings from cricket commentators around the world might start to dry up if that happens.
 
dogwatch said:
I expect it will pan out like this:
  • S.Africa win the fourth test reasonably comfortably but surprisingly there are no dramatic levels of reverse swing from bowlers of either side.
  • CA completes it's investigation. Possibly a few more dragged in but at a minimum Smith and Warner get a 6 month ban. Bancroft something similar maybe a bit less. Not sure that Lehmann gets off.
  • CA announces some changes to procedures, code of ethics etc.
  • CA salvages what it can from the TV rights negotiations and from its direct sponsors. However this could be a hit that costs as much as $100m in sponsorship, broadcast rights, etc. That's a big reason why they can't be seen to go too easy on the ringleaders.
  • ICC waits until all of that process is complete and then starts a thorough review of the rules and enforcement re ball-tampering.
  • ICC announces new rules, new policing measures and a new scale of penalties re ball-tampering. Not retrospective.
So I don't think the Aussies will be "sacrificial lambs". In fact I think there are a few other senior test cricketers around the world who would be just a bit uneasy at the moment, especially if the ICC decides it will start poring over TV footage of recent international series. Some of the sanctimonious outpourings from cricket commentators around the world might start to dry up if that happens.
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I hope you are right on the ICC but I suspect it wont happen we only need to look at the recent record on Rabada (inmagine if Warner had shoulder hit another player).

I also dont agree on the the TV rights stuff. Paul Keating had a saying "always back self interest because you know its trying"
The sponsors etc will make the right noises but its all for show anyone connected with the media will know that controversy equals ratings and this will have no long term effect on crickets popularity (thats why TV shows like MAFS rate so well when they have nothing to do with couples finding long term partners or the faux arguing that appears on MKR).
 
I'm sick of hearing from foreign ex cricketers and media pundits about what a dreadful thing Smith and Co have perpetrated and the shame we must feel.
While I think Warner and Smith were stupid to come up with such a plan, and need some sort of penalty, foreign reactions have been given way too much credibility and allowed to stoke the fury of the 24/7 news cycle, which doesn't need much help.
Editors here are happily publishing tendentious judgements by English media like The Telegraph and endless tweets from the likes of Mike Atherton as they rub their hands with glee at seeing the old enemy in some disarray.
Good summary here http://www.news.com.au/sport/cricke...n/news-story/0ffaf33c922b4accee918af3f9ed8eef
(Credit though to Andrew Flintoff, who referred to the stench of hypocrisy sweeping social media.)
Atherton is of course the worst offender.. when, ironically, he became embroiled in a similar way to Smith once his dirt scuffing antics had been revealed..
at the home of cricket, old boy, and against.. South Africa.
Read about the uncanny similarities here http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/143193.html
Smith and Co's main crime apparently is not so much the act itself but the premeditation.
Please.. does anyone really believe that Atherton or du Plessis or Philander or any of the other ball scuffers came up with their tactics all by themselves and didn't discuss it with anyone?
I'm not trying to absolve the Australians of blame. And the team as a whole, and the authorities in charge, probably needed to be brought down a peg or two.
But the righteous indignation has gone over the top.
 
Hard Ball Get said:
CA go bang. 12 months is pretty big. Sensed their anger, as I mentioned earlier.
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You were right!

It's huge. Now we can go after other nations about their non-punishment of cheats. I so hope a journalist asks the SA captain about if he feels the punishment was appropriate. IF he does, when is he taking his 12 month ban?
 

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LittleG said:
You were right!

It's huge. Now we can go after other nations about their non-punishment of cheats. I so hope a journalist asks the SA captain about if he feels the punishment was appropriate. IF he does, when is he taking his 12 month ban?
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No they won’t because they are too busy relishing their roles in bringing Warner and co down. We talk a lot on here about Barrett and Caro and their personal grudges but they have nothing on the Cricket journos like Craddock.
This lot are having a field day getting their revenge


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If you ever wanted to know how much the higher-ups at Cricket Australia want to rip David Warner limb from limb all you need is this sentence:

'David Warner will not be considered for team leadership positions in the future.'
 
In addition:
  • Both Warner and Smith have lost their place in the IPL (both had been designated as captains of their respective sides too). I think it was a $2m+ contract in each case.
  • Warner has already lost his endorsement contract with LG.
  • Other endorsement contracts are likely to be shredded for both of them. I doubt Bancroft had any to begin with.
  • All three will obviously miss out on match payments. Don't know whether there's also a base-level payment being sacrificed in addition to match payments.
  • All three will be regarded as pariahs by the media and the public, at least for a while, especially Smith and Warner. Warner is probably tough enough to get through it (but it won't be easy). I fear for Smith - he will need a lot of personal support and counselling I'd say.
  • Bancroft may come back but hasn't even got a test average of 40 yet so he'll be behind a few other aspirants, Smith won't be an automatic selection even after 12 months and some (eg Jim Maxwell) are suggesting that Warner will never play test cricket again.
I did think in isolation the punishment was about right. My guess is it's about 60% due to bringing Australian cricket and our sporting integrity into disrepute, about 35% for premeditated cheating and about 5% for doing it so stupidly in full view of dozens of cameras (i.e. if you must cheat, don't get caught).

However when you add all the above bullet points up it's going to be a massive whack for Smith and Warner. Their careers and reputations may never recover. Even reducing the penalty to six months or 3 months may not make much of a difference to those bullet points. Much of the damage has already been done.

One thing we can be sure of: no Australian cricketer will consider cheating in such a brazen way for the foreseeable future. The extent of the impact on the the perpetrators will have shocked all of them.
 
dogwatch said:
In addition:
  • Both Warner and Smith have lost their place in the IPL (both had been designated as captains of their respective sides too). I think it was a $2m+ contract in each case.
  • Warner has already lost his endorsement contract with LG.
  • Other endorsement contracts are likely to be shredded for both of them. I doubt Bancroft had any to begin with.
  • All three will obviously miss out on match payments. Don't know whether there's also a base-level payment being sacrificed in addition to match payments.
  • All three will be regarded as pariahs by the media and the public, at least for a while, especially Smith and Warner. Warner is probably tough enough to get through it (but it won't be easy). I fear for Smith - he will need a lot of personal support and counselling I'd say.
  • Bancroft may come back but hasn't even got a test average of 40 yet so he'll be behind a few other aspirants, Smith won't be an automatic selection even after 12 months and some (eg Jim Maxwell) are suggesting that Warner will never play test cricket again.
I did think in isolation the punishment was about right. My guess is it's about 60% due to bringing Australian cricket and our sporting integrity into disrepute, about 35% for premeditated cheating and about 5% for doing it so stupidly in full view of dozens of cameras (i.e. if you must cheat, don't get caught).

However when you add all the above bullet points up it's going to be a massive whack for Smith and Warner. Their careers and reputations may never recover. Even reducing the penalty to six months or 3 months may not make much of a difference to those bullet points. Much of the damage has already been done.

One thing we can be sure of: no Australian cricketer will consider cheating in such a brazen way for the foreseeable future. The extent of the impact on the the perpetrators will have shocked all of them.
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Agree with this and a lot of the good discussion on this topic in this thread. Reading between the lines of the CA statement I think in your weightings I’d add trying to cover it up and being misleading after the event - that’s often considered worse than the incident itself. Seems in Smith’s brain explosion he just kept making it worse by trying to hide it from the umpires, blaming a broader leadership group, saying it was tape not sandpaper etc. This on top of not realising it was a stupid idea in the first place and trying to stop it which was his obligation as captain. Of the many influences on how hard they were going to come down, Alan Joyce saying they were considering their options but expect a strong statement from CA meant they were always going to get whacked hard (along with all the other good points above about TV rights etc). I’m sympathetic to the effect this may have on their lives but sometimes a moment of madness can do that unfortunately.
 
dogwatch said:
In addition:
  • Both Warner and Smith have lost their place in the IPL (both had been designated as captains of their respective sides too). I think it was a $2m+ contract in each case.
  • Warner has already lost his endorsement contract with LG.
  • Other endorsement contracts are likely to be shredded for both of them. I doubt Bancroft had any to begin with.
  • All three will obviously miss out on match payments. Don't know whether there's also a base-level payment being sacrificed in addition to match payments.
  • All three will be regarded as pariahs by the media and the public, at least for a while, especially Smith and Warner. Warner is probably tough enough to get through it (but it won't be easy). I fear for Smith - he will need a lot of personal support and counselling I'd say.
  • Bancroft may come back but hasn't even got a test average of 40 yet so he'll be behind a few other aspirants, Smith won't be an automatic selection even after 12 months and some (eg Jim Maxwell) are suggesting that Warner will never play test cricket again.
I did think in isolation the punishment was about right. My guess is it's about 60% due to bringing Australian cricket and our sporting integrity into disrepute, about 35% for premeditated cheating and about 5% for doing it so stupidly in full view of dozens of cameras (i.e. if you must cheat, don't get caught).

However when you add all the above bullet points up it's going to be a massive whack for Smith and Warner. Their careers and reputations may never recover. Even reducing the penalty to six months or 3 months may not make much of a difference to those bullet points. Much of the damage has already been done.

One thing we can be sure of: no Australian cricketer will consider cheating in such a brazen way for the foreseeable future. The extent of the impact on the the perpetrators will have shocked all of them.
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No more LG OLED tv ads? Jeeze, we're all losers in this situation
 
DelRe said:
Agree with this and a lot of the good discussion on this topic in this thread. Reading between the lines of the CA statement I think in your weightings I’d add trying to cover it up and being misleading after the event - that’s often considered worse than the incident itself. Seems in Smith’s brain explosion he just kept making it worse by trying to hide it from the umpires, blaming a broader leadership group, saying it was tape not sandpaper etc. This on top of not realising it was a stupid idea in the first place and trying to stop it which was his obligation as captain. Of the many influences on how hard they were going to come down, Alan Joyce saying they were considering their options but expect a strong statement from CA meant they were always going to get whacked hard (along with all the other good points above about TV rights etc). I’m sympathetic to the effect this may have on their lives but sometimes a moment of madness can do that unfortunately.
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I just can’t reconcile in my mind the penalty given to these players and what has happened to players from other countries. It’s been often quoted in the media how other countries are laughing at us and no wonder as we seem hell bent on being the games moral guardians.
We have often claimed to be a country of the fair go but there has been none of that displayed here.
What’s fair about 1 year ban whilst our opposition captain a twice convicted offender sits back and laughs?


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Bulldogs Legend said:
I just can’t reconcile in my mind the penalty given to these players and what has happened to players from other countries. It’s been often quoted in the media how other countries are laughing at us and no wonder as we seem hell bent on being the games moral guardians.
We have often claimed to be a country of the fair go but there has been none of that displayed here.
What’s fair about 1 year ban whilst our opposition captain a twice convicted offender sits back and laughs?


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Yeah I’m probably steering clear of giving my own view on it more just highlighting the perfect storm that built against them and they didn’t seem to see it coming. Covering up and lack of leadership seems to have been a big part of it according to the CA (although that may be a bit of cover for how much pressure they themselves were under to be seen to be hard on them from sponsors and high profile commentary such as PM - ironically Alan Joyce quoted the idea of a fair go being breached by their actions as a reason for being tough on them).

Maybe it would have helped maybe it wouldn’t but once caught on TV they were done for and their best bet for a lighter sentence may have been full disclosure and throwing themselves at the mercy of CA. Or at the very least have a better story!

No point looking for consistency in sporting tribunal decisions though. Not sure what rights of appeal they have.
 
Hopefully Warner learns some humility but I will believe it when I see it.

Smith simply was too young to be in his position in the first place. If he comes through this he will be a much wiser man and better for it.

I would have been happy with 6 months but If no other Aussie cheats in the future for fear of the fallout then it is all worth it.
 
Some suggested rules to clean up cricket:

- allow a certain amount of ball management that can happen incidentally anyway (eg throwing in on the bounce, have a mandated mint everyone's allowed to suck on, using sweat from a sunscreen area)

- if anyone is caught doing ANYTHING else, batting team gets to choose a replacement ball from the bottom of my kit bag

- any gob that is after a wicket, or personal, aggressive, or just deliberately antagonistic gets a ten over send off (batsman, bowler or fielder, fielder can't be replaced).

If that happens within one year the bickering will be done and the lads will just play cricket, which is all we want them to do.
 
Who cares what other countries have done in the past to their cheats. We're trying to set a higher standard. Also, this was probably just the straw that broke the camels back with respect to the horrendous team culture that's been building over a long time.

I'd be happy to never seen Warner in the baggy green again. The bloke is just a bad egg.
 

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Non-AFL chat thread part 2

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