Oppo Camp Non-Eagles Discussion

[Chief]

Continued in Part 2:

Oppo Camp - Non-Eagles Discussion

Who gives a **** about finals anyway So overrated It’s all about the draft these days

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[ioppolo]

Aren't we forgetting someone?

 

[ep2018]

Interesting to see who gets the rising star nomination this week. Good chance Van Rooyen gets it but his game was so poor for 3 quarters that he was moments away from being subbed out. Then he helped turned the game with a few minutes of brilliance

He won the game for them, he gets it easily imo

Love Culley but he kicked 4 in a smashing. He'll get his nom later in the season.

 

[squashface]

Interesting to see who gets the rising star nomination this week. Good chance Van Rooyen gets it but his game was so poor for 3 quarters that he was moments away from being subbed out. Then he helped turned the game with a few minutes of brilliance

I'd say he gets it then as the AFL would love a story like that.

"Almost subbed out to Rising Star nominee"

 

[Bender_]

What type of fun hating worm doesn't like father/son picks? Sure, make them pay market value (a first round pick) but otherwise it's a great rule. The bigger problem is Pies outsmarted the system, traded away their first pick the draft before Daicos became eligible so didn't really have to pay for him.

 

[Cuzz09]

Cousins went alright

I meant Eagle dads but yes he sure did

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[Eastern Rangers]

what are the chances this Harley Reid guy can take that step?

Vibes of a flop in my mind. Hawks can have him.

Happy to split picks lol

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Is Harley Reid an uncontested back flanker?

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[Ilkka Sinisalo]

F/S rule is great, luck of the draw in many respects. Fair play to them.

It’s fine if people like F/S for the nostalgia aspect, but it’s absolutely not just luck of the draw. Elite athletes are more likely to have elite athletic kids, that’s just how genetics work. And elite players are more likely to have lengthy careers and be more successful in their sport. So the F/S rule is inherently beneficial to clubs which have been around for a very long time and have historically been more successful.

Look at who some of the more successful teams were in the last two generations and how many F/S picks they’ve had:

Geelong: 14
Collingwood: 17
Essendon: 9
Carlton: 9

Now for some less successful clubs and non-Victorian clubs:
Gold Coast: 0
GWS: 0
Fremantle: 1
Adelaide: 3
St Kilda: 3
Port: 5
Brisbane: 5
Sydney: 5
North: 6
West Coast: 6

The F/S picks have also been incredibly lucrative for some of the “power” Victorian teams, and not so much for the weaker or newer clubs. Gary Ablett Jr, Tom Hawkins, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Scarlett, Dustin Fletcher, Travis Cloke, Heath Shaw, Darcy Moore, the Daicos brothers, etc. Of course there have been some busts, but it’s easy to cut failed F/S picks loose without having invested too much, ie the Brown brothers at Collingwood.

Don’t get me wrong, the current system is at least better than when Geelong were getting the likes of Ablett and Hawkins for a packet of crisps. But the system still disproportionately benefits the powerful Victorian clubs and screws over the bad clubs and the newer clubs, since an elite prospect like Daicos should have been going to a bottom feeder like North or Gold Coast and not a club like Collingwood.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Easier said than done. In interviews pre-draft he admitted that he expects to be tagged and was already working on his ability to beat them.


Completely agree with the premise however - letting him roam effectively unattended just allows far too much damage.

Not too many specialist taggers around now. Would be interesting to see how he would fare against 2018 Hutchings or Kirk or Ling at their peaks.

N.Daicos has a low win rate in head to head contests. But I don't think tagging him is really the issue, you blanket the Collingwood midfields and slow them down across the forward half line. Same way you beat them under Bucks.

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[Godfather32]

It’s fine if people like F/S for the nostalgia aspect, but it’s absolutely not just luck of the draw. Elite athletes are more likely to have elite athletic kids, that’s just how genetics work. And elite players are more likely to have lengthy careers and be more successful in their sport. So the F/S rule is inherently beneficial to clubs which have been around for a very long time and have historically been more successful.

Look at who some of the more successful teams were in the last two generations and how many F/S picks they’ve had:

Geelong: 14
Collingwood: 17
Essendon: 9
Carlton: 9

Now for some less successful clubs and non-Victorian clubs:
Gold Coast: 0
GWS: 0
Fremantle: 1
Adelaide: 3
St Kilda: 3
Port: 5
Brisbane: 5
Sydney: 5
North: 6
West Coast: 6

The F/S picks have also been incredibly lucrative for some of the “power” Victorian teams, and not so much for the weaker or newer clubs. Gary Ablett Jr, Tom Hawkins, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Scarlett, Dustin Fletcher, Travis Cloke, Heath Shaw, Darcy Moore, the Daicos brothers, etc. Of course there have been some busts, but it’s easy to cut failed F/S picks loose without having invested too much, ie the Brown brothers at Collingwood.

Don’t get me wrong, the current system is at least better than when Geelong were getting the likes of Ablett and Hawkins for a packet of crisps. But the system still disproportionately benefits the powerful Victorian clubs and screws over the bad clubs and the newer clubs, since an elite prospect like Daicos should have been going to a bottom feeder like North or Gold Coast and not a club like Collingwood.

Quite a lot of those father sons from the strong teams have been shit though.
It works both ways because teams feel obligated to take them just because of the F/S connection and quite often leave better players on the table

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

What type of fun hating worm doesn't like father/son picks? Sure, make them pay market value (a first round pick) but otherwise it's a great rule. The bigger problem is Pies outsmarted the system, traded away their first pick the draft before Daicos became eligible so didn't really have to pay for him.

It would be an ok rule if implemented correctly, but as it stands now teams are just trading a handful of second to fourth round picks to grab players like Ashcroft and Daicos. Would a North Melbourne or Gold Coast have accepted a few picks in the 30s, 40s and 50s for an Ashcroft or a Daicos. Of course not.

Clubs aren’t paying market value which is why the system doesn’t work.

 

[Bender_]

It would be an ok rule if implemented correctly, but as it stands now teams are just trading a handful of second to fourth round picks to grab players like Ashcroft and Daicos. Would a North Melbourne or Gold Coast have accepted a few picks in the 30s, 40s and 50s for an Ashcroft or a Daicos. Of course not.

Clubs aren’t paying market value which is why the system doesn’t work.

Yeah look it needs some refinement definitely, but it keeps a bit of romance in the game having the sons play for their dad's club where possible.

 

[Godfather32]

Yeah look it needs some refinement definitely, but it keeps a bit of romance in the game having the sons play for their dad's club where possible.

IMO it maintains a strong connection between the club and supporters that you quite often don't get with the bigger American and European sports.

 

[Ilkka Sinisalo]

Yeah look it needs some refinement definitely, but it keeps a bit of romance in the game having the sons play for their dad's club where possible.

I can get on board with that, and like I said it’s a much better system than when Geelong were able to grab Hawkins (probably the top overall prospect that year) for a third round pick.

Another problem is that the clubs drafting really early are trying desperately to avoid hurting the feelings of their top picks (Horne-Francis; Cadman) so instead of the best player (Daicos; Ashcroft) getting drafted first, they drop a slot (or two, or three), so they end up essentially getting an even bigger discount than the 20% discount that the AFL has built in.

Worked out so well for North that the guy they drafted first bailed on them after one year!

 

[garlic munchers]

It’s fine if people like F/S for the nostalgia aspect, but it’s absolutely not just luck of the draw. Elite athletes are more likely to have elite athletic kids, that’s just how genetics work. And elite players are more likely to have lengthy careers and be more successful in their sport. So the F/S rule is inherently beneficial to clubs which have been around for a very long time and have historically been more successful.

Look at who some of the more successful teams were in the last two generations and how many F/S picks they’ve had:

Geelong: 14
Collingwood: 17
Essendon: 9
Carlton: 9

Now for some less successful clubs and non-Victorian clubs:
Gold Coast: 0
GWS: 0
Fremantle: 1
Adelaide: 3
St Kilda: 3
Port: 5
Brisbane: 5
Sydney: 5
North: 6
West Coast: 6

The F/S picks have also been incredibly lucrative for some of the “power” Victorian teams, and not so much for the weaker or newer clubs. Gary Ablett Jr, Tom Hawkins, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Scarlett, Dustin Fletcher, Travis Cloke, Heath Shaw, Darcy Moore, the Daicos brothers, etc. Of course there have been some busts, but it’s easy to cut failed F/S picks loose without having invested too much, ie the Brown brothers at Collingwood.

Don’t get me wrong, the current system is at least better than when Geelong were getting the likes of Ablett and Hawkins for a packet of crisps. But the system still disproportionately benefits the powerful Victorian clubs and screws over the bad clubs and the newer clubs, since an elite prospect like Daicos should have been going to a bottom feeder like North or Gold Coast and not a club like Collingwood.

So you’re saying it’s screws Freo way more than us and you want to get rid of it?

 

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

Judd was good in 04 but didn't think that was his best year.

Got only 20 votes I think plus don't think he was fav.

Was definitely a media love child but Daicos is a million times more due to Coll player

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If my memory serves, Warren Tredrea was the pre-count favourite in 2004. Back when forwards were still thought to be a chance. Judd's win was a surprise. He actually polled 30 votes and won by a fair margin. His 2006 was probably his big year in terms of favouritism along with Goodes but ended up in 3rd place (4th if you count Kerr being above him but ineligible).

But as was said, stood out in 2003 so umpires then start paying more attention the following year and with Cousins missing games after being our #1 mid for the last few seasons, he got most of our vote attention from the umps. I think Chad Fletcher had his best ever season that year but who the **** would have known who Chad Fletcher was.

 

[Keys]

I like that sons can get to the club their father played for. It’s an important connection point for clubs and I think supporters like to see sons of former players running out for the club

That said the bidding system needs to be refined. The 20% points deduction should be removed as having guaranteed access to a player by matching points is enough of an advantage without getting a price discount. I’d also like to see a rule put in place that requires a club when matching to use at least one pick within 18 places of the bid - so with Daicos who was bid on with pick 4, Collingwood would need to use pick 22 or lower as part of the matching process plus whatever other pick(s) needed to make up the shortfall

Same process for academy bids btw

 

[Priddis Is Done]

If my memory serves, Warren Tredrea was the pre-count favourite in 2004. Back when forwards were still thought to be a chance. Judd's win was a surprise. He actually polled 30 votes and won by a fair margin. His 2006 was probably his big year in terms of favouritism along with Goodes but ended up in 3rd place (4th if you count Kerr being above him but ineligible).

But as was said, stood out in 2003 so umpires then start paying more attention the following year and with Cousins missing games after being our #1 mid for the last few seasons, he got most of our vote attention from the umps. I think Chad Fletcher had his best ever season that year but who the * would have known who Chad Fletcher was.

That purple patch of form that Tredrea had for 2 or 3 years was something else. He was that dominant and crashing packs. He toyed with the opposition.

He is the most dominant forward I've ever seen. Apologies to Carey as I didn't watch many of his games and those years are a little hazy for me.

 

[RookiePick]

That purple patch of form that Tredrea had for 2 or 3 years was something else. He was that dominant and crashing packs. He toyed with the opposition.

He is the most dominant forward I've ever seen. Apologies to Carey as I didn't watch many of his games and those years are a little hazy for me.

Probably Dunstall for mine. The bloke just seemed to amass goals without doing an awful lot. It was like shelling peas for him.

Tredrea is hugely underrated though, I agree. Pissed all over Jono Brown IMO.

 

[ziad]

That purple patch of form that Tredrea had for 2 or 3 years was something else. He was that dominant and crashing packs. He toyed with the opposition.

He is the most dominant forward I've ever seen. Apologies to Carey as I didn't watch many of his games and those years are a little hazy for me.

Tredrea was no Carey

 

[Priddis Is Done]

Tredrea was no Carey

I agree. But Tredrea was in rarified air in a few seasons. Under rated as he wasn't paying in Victoria.

 

[Ochre]

I like that sons can get to the club their father played for. It’s an important connection point for clubs and I think supporters like to see sons of former players running out for the club

That said the bidding system needs to be refined. The 20% points deduction should be removed as having guaranteed access to a player by matching points is enough of an advantage without getting a price discount. I’d also like to see a rule put in place that requires a club when matching to use at least one pick within 18 places of the bid - so with Daicos who was bid on with pick 4, Collingwood would need to use pick 22 or lower as part of the matching process plus whatever other pick(s) needed to make up the shortfall

Same process for academy bids btw

They just need to fix the points weighting. If clubs are trying to downgrade every pick every time, then clearly high picks aren't properly valued.

 

[bzparkes]

Probably Dunstall for mine. The bloke just seemed to amass goals without doing an awful lot. It was like shelling peas for him.

Tredrea is hugely underrated though, I agree. Pissed all over Jono Brown IMO.

Was Brown ever really that good? Gun player, no doubt. Gets put on a pedestal for being a 3x premiership player, imho.

 

[WCE_phil]

Was Brown ever really that good? Gun player, no doubt. Gets put on a pedestal for being a 3x premiership player, imho.

For a few years when Brisbane weren't amazing he was. Also stood up in big or tight games.

Of the 3 generational CHF of that time Nick Riewoldt had the best, most consistent career but also didn't stand up and win the premiership for his side twice when he could have, Brown was amazingly courageous (to the point of absolute stupidity) and could be depended upon to kick the clutch goal and Tredrea had the highest peak. Pav to me was a step down but could play anywhere. His career is diminished by playing on for a few seasons too long.

It's interesting as Jack Riewoldt has 3 premierships, 3 colemans and has kicked more goals than Nick Riewoldt but I think even he could admit that his cousin was easily the better player.

 

[Rowan18]

Father son is hit and miss.

How many have been flops?

Just luck that Pies got a good one/two

If some of our father sons ever turn awesome we'll love the rule

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Ben Cousins went alright

 

[briztoon]

It’s fine if people like F/S for the nostalgia aspect, but it’s absolutely not just luck of the draw. Elite athletes are more likely to have elite athletic kids, that’s just how genetics work. And elite players are more likely to have lengthy careers and be more successful in their sport. So the F/S rule is inherently beneficial to clubs which have been around for a very long time and have historically been more successful.

Look at who some of the more successful teams were in the last two generations and how many F/S picks they’ve had:

Geelong: 14
Collingwood: 17
Essendon: 9
Carlton: 9

Now for some less successful clubs and non-Victorian clubs:
Gold Coast: 0
GWS: 0
Fremantle: 1
Adelaide: 3
St Kilda: 3
Port: 5
Brisbane: 5
Sydney: 5
North: 6
West Coast: 6

The F/S picks have also been incredibly lucrative for some of the “power” Victorian teams, and not so much for the weaker or newer clubs. Gary Ablett Jr, Tom Hawkins, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Scarlett, Dustin Fletcher, Travis Cloke, Heath Shaw, Darcy Moore, the Daicos brothers, etc. Of course there have been some busts, but it’s easy to cut failed F/S picks loose without having invested too much, ie the Brown brothers at Collingwood.

Don’t get me wrong, the current system is at least better than when Geelong were getting the likes of Ablett and Hawkins for a packet of crisps. But the system still disproportionately benefits the powerful Victorian clubs and screws over the bad clubs and the newer clubs, since an elite prospect like Daicos should have been going to a bottom feeder like North or Gold Coast and not a club like Collingwood.

Collingwood were 17th the season they drafted Nick Daicos.

He has single handedly dragged them to the top of the league.