Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XV

[BrunoV]

Just on the draft they have not had lot of top end picks in recent times.
Also when Clarkson says find me players to top up then that is what you do. There is 100% no doubt that Clarkson runs the football department.

What do I need an expert list manager for when I have top 10 picks?

They pick the players who have been identified. They even get the out of picking best performed.

Even if it was Clarkson his record is that he's essentially unproven. Why would Collingwood have any faith in him?

 

[ant555]

What do I need an expert list manager for when I have top 10 picks?

They pick the players who have been identified. They even get the out of picking best performed.

Even if it was Clarkson his record is that he's essentially unproven. Why would Collingwood have any faith in him?

Because he was at Hawthorn from 2007. He was in the system for 4 premierships under one of history’s best coaches. He has seen how it operates even if he was not the one responsible for making all the choices. People out of successful systems get picked out.
He has a different challenge now as he gets to stamp his own style. Make no mistake a good number of decisions on top up players where a Clarko directive.

 

[BrunoV]

If he wasn't a Collingwood premiership player would they have faith? Wouldn't they then have to look at his record?

 

[Zach Package]

Surely the fine for doing dumb shit like McCartney needs to be like 100 grand or 20 grand out of his pocket to effectively stamp out people doing dumb shit.

 

[boncer34]

Surely the fine for doing dumb sh*t like McCartney needs to be like 100 grand or 20 grand out of his pocket to effectively stamp out people doing dumb sh*t.

He should've been banned from games.

It's a ****ing disgrace and then people wonder why we have such a shortage of umpires at local levels. The AFL is teaching people umpire abuse isn't important.

 

[BrunoV]

He should've been banned from games.

It's a ******* disgrace and then people wonder why we have such a shortage of umpires at local levels. The AFL is teaching people umpire abuse isn't important.

Not a real argument. When was the last time umpire abuse was not treated appropriately?

When has anything stopped people going over the top about sports officials?

I agree that McCartney should be banned just as you'd be banned for pulling the same shit at the lower level but this is not an issue that has ever filtered down.

 

[boncer34]

Not a real argument. When was the last time umpire abuse was not treated appropriately?

When has anything stopped people going over the top about sports officials?

I agree that McCartney should be banned just as you'd be banned for pulling the same sh*t at the lower level but this is not an issue that has ever filtered down.

So you think seeing people abuse umpires and getting wet lettuce leaf punishments at the top level has zero flow on impact?


Also when was the last time? McCartney not being punished appropriately springs to mind.

 

[eth-dog]

You're on track as far as I can tell.

If you go to Wikipedia it credits Wright with Burgoyne and Gibson but they were already there.

That leaves Gunston, McEvoy and Lake.

He has a draft record that is decidedly average. Hits are Hill, Sicily, maybe O'Brien, Burtone, Hardwick, Worpel and Day.

Too early to tell but probably make it: Morrison, Hanrahan, Lewis, Cousins, Moore, Kosi, Downie and DGB.

That's 10 drafts between 11 and 20.

2 first round picks on O'Meara, with that injury history, and managing a list deep into the bottom 6 on the ladder and with no capital to quickly turn it around.

Compare this to the way Geelong, Sydney and Richmond have managed themselves during sustained periods of top 4 campaigns.

Winning premierships is not an excuse for a list manager who basically had no part in the premiership list. His job was to manage things so the Hawks don't fall into the hole in which they find themselves, surely?

O'Brien, Morrison and Cousins are legitimately terrible

 

[VelvetSledge]

VelvetSledge likes this.

Loves it

 

[Harlequin Dream]

Hawthorn's trade record is pretty bad.

However, their recent draft record has been very good. Looking at each draft from the last 5 or 6 years, I can't fault how many players they found with the picks they were working with.

The only questionable draft they have had recently is 2018 and even then Kosi is a very good 3rd round pick.

 

[BrunoV]

So you think seeing people abuse umpires and getting wet lettuce leaf punishments at the top level has zero flow on impact?


Also when was the last time? McCartney not being punished appropriately springs to mind.

What happens at the lower level has always been a massive escalation of what happens in professional competition.

This is the first time I can recall something like this happening in the AFL in the 30 years I've been following things.

The Neanderthals who carry out the actions at the lower level have never needed the example in the past and they won't need it in the future.

The general treatment of umpires, accusing them of being cheats, the blind obsession that umpires persecute a fan's team and the resentment that manifests is a much bigger problem. Plenty of it exists here for example.

No fine or ban is going to change that.

 

[citizen-erased]

What happens at the lower level has always been a massive escalation of what happens in professional competition.

This is the first time I can recall something like this happening in the AFL in the 30 years I've been following things.

The Neanderthals who carry out the actions at the lower level have never needed the example in the past and they won't need it in the future.

The general treatment of umpires, accusing them of being cheats, the blind obsession that umpires persecute a fan's team and the resentment that manifests is a much bigger problem. Plenty of it exists here for example.

No fine or ban is going to change that.

All fair, but you gotta wonder what McCartney is thinking there.
It's not in the moment, on the field, or in passing. He's gone down to their rooms.
Imagine the free kick naturally went GWS' way for the rest of the game. The umps would be under immense scrutiny and the integrity of the sport called into question.
A 4 week ban from any contact from the club seems minimal. He's lucky AFL house aren't leaning on GWS to sack him.

 

[boncer34]

What happens at the lower level has always been a massive escalation of what happens in professional competition.

This is the first time I can recall something like this happening in the AFL in the 30 years I've been following things.

The Neanderthals who carry out the actions at the lower level have never needed the example in the past and they won't need it in the future.

The general treatment of umpires, accusing them of being cheats, the blind obsession that umpires persecute a fan's team and the resentment that manifests is a much bigger problem. Plenty of it exists here for example.

No fine or ban is going to change that.

I feel like we're in general agreement here Bruno.

I fully agree with the bold. This place can be quite pathetic towards umpires at times. And I'm certainly not perfect, I have incredibly bad white line fever at times.

 

[BrunoV]

All fair, but you gotta wonder what McCartney is thinking there.
It's not in the moment, on the field, or in passing. He's gone down to their rooms.
Imagine the free kick naturally went GWS' way for the rest of the game. The umps would be under immense scrutiny and the integrity of the sport called into question.
A 4 week ban from any contact from the club seems minimal. He's lucky AFL house aren't leaning on GWS to sack him.

Don't get me wrong. I'd probably kick McCartney out of the competition.

As for addressing the broader issue of umpires, I'd start by abandoning the pretence that everything is perfect. Own mistakes and let the umpires be human. Let them talk and explain why decisions are made if they want to.

Open weekly coaching to the public so we know why they do what they do. Keep it as anomous as possible.

Make umpires and umpiring relatable. It's delicate. It calls for one of those "we're people too, think before you speak" campaigns but that's likely red rag to a bull.

 

[ant555]

If he wasn't a Collingwood premiership player would they have faith? Wouldn't they then have to look at his record?

So you are saying they did not look at his record just because he played in a Collingwood flag ? I say take your conspiracy hat off.
You may not think much of his record but the fact is as a player he played under an all time legend who won flags at two clubs and then worked at a club in a period where they won 4 flags and with another great coach.
As a list manager he moved on a few legends. Spent too much on getting some players in under the advice of the coach and did what most clubs have done after a run of success and that is try and top up.
Has topping up really served Geelong?
Would they have been better going back to the draft 6 years ago ?
Sydney ended up falling away after their run.
Anyway the list manager does not over rule the coach. If the premiership coach says move in the old blokes and find me some ready to go replacements then that is what he does.
I would say Wright has a very strong football pedigree to be football manager.

 

[citizen-erased]

Don't get me wrong. I'd probably kick McCartney out of the competition.

Same.
Had ample opportunity to stop himself.
The apology statement couldn't have been less contrite if it tried. Copy and paste template type stuff.

Where is Richo kicking up a stink on this too.

 

[boncer34]

Don't get me wrong. I'd probably kick McCartney out of the competition.

As for addressing the broader issue of umpires, I'd start by abandoning the pretence that everything is perfect. Own mistakes and let the umpires be human. Let them talk and explain why decisions are made if they want to.

Open weekly coaching to the public so we know why they do what they do. Keep it as anomous as possible.

Make umpires and umpiring relatable. It's delicate. It calls for one of those "we're people too, think before you speak" campaigns but that's likely red rag to a bull.

There also needs to be greater promotion of rule changes somehow. For example the "run behind the mark" 50 that was paid Sunday. Absolute outrage and howls of abuse around me in the stands about how that's not a rule bla bla.

Now I don't think the umpire should've paid it purely because I don't recall it being paid at all previously and it was a weird time to start paying it. But, it is a rule. Yet I'd say the vast majority of people didn't know that.

Who's fault is that? The AFL for not promoting the change properly or the fans for not keeping up to date?

 

[faible]

There also needs to be greater promotion of rule changes somehow. For example the "run behind the mark" 50 that was paid Sunday. Absolute outrage and howls of abuse around me in the stands about how that's not a rule bla bla.

Now I don't think the umpire should've paid it purely because I don't recall it being paid at all previously and it was a weird time to start paying it. But, it is a rule. Yet I'd say the vast majority of people didn't know that.

Who's fault is that? The AFL for not promoting the change properly or the fans for not keeping up to date?

The AFL changed the stand rule numerous times throughtout the pre-season as well, just to add some complexity. Then add umpires randomly applying said rules to that. I don't recall having seen it occur this year in any of the games I've watched even though it's technically a rule.

The rules need a massive tidy-up, there's way too much grey area and it leads to umpires being asked to do way too many things at once, players being confused, and fans being infuriated.

That said, McCartney was way off the reservation here, how they only copped a $20,000 fine for that I don't know.

 

[84859300]

I had a friend who got concussion in Bali and wasn't allow to fly back

You spelt chlamydia wrong

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Is this bloke overrated? Or should he have picked a club that needed him more?

‘People can judge him but we know what we value’: Hardwick defends Lynch

Lynch has kicked 10 goals in the first six games where Richmond have won three and lost three, with the undefeated Western Bulldogs their next challenge.

www.theage.com.au

 

[eth-dog]

Hawthorn's trade record is pretty bad.

However, their recent draft record has been very good. Looking at each draft from the last 5 or 6 years, I can't fault how many players they found with the picks they were working with.

The only questionable draft they have had recently is 2018 and even then Kosi is a very good 3rd round pick.

Last two years the jury is out apart from Day who looks really good

2018:

Pick 52: Jacob Koschitzke - Jury out, but promising so far
Pick 63: Mathew Walker - fail
RD 14: Damon Greaves - See Kozi
RD 30: Will Golds - fail
RD 43: Tim Mohr - fail
RD 49: Will Langford - fail

2017:

Pick 45: James Worpel - pass
Pick 67: Dylan Moore - Jury out
Pick 71: Jackson Ross - fail
RD 7: Harrison Jones - fail
RD 23: David Mirra - fail
RD 34: Dallas Millsmore - fail

2016:

Pick 74: Harry Morrison - Pass? He's played 45 games but most have been poor.
Pick 76: Mitchell Lewis - Jury's still out due to not playing that much last year but looks promising.
RD 14: Oliver Hanrahan - Same as Mitch Lewis
RD 31: Jack Fitzpatrick - Fail
RD 46: James Cousins - Jury's "out" but needs a good year to retain.

2015:

Pick 19: Ryan Burton - Fail, played 45 for Hawthorne but now at Port.
Pick 22: Kieran Lovell - Fail
Pick 44: Blake Hardwick - Pass
RD 18: Luke Surman - Fail
RD 36: Kade Stewart - Fail
RD 52: Alex Woodward - Fail
RD 62: Conor Glass - Fail

3 passes (1 iffy)
Jury out on 5
15 fails

I mean I get what you're saying in relative terms. If Morrison improves and 3 of the "jury's out" players end up being passes (Kozi, Lewis and Hanrahan look likely) 6 passes and 17 fails isn't bad given the picks.

 

[citizen-erased]

Is this bloke overrated? Or should he have picked a club that needed him more?

‘People can judge him but we know what we value’: Hardwick defends Lynch

Lynch has kicked 10 goals in the first six games where Richmond have won three and lost three, with the undefeated Western Bulldogs their next challenge.

www.theage.com.au

Tigers tall stocks aren't great.
Jack and Lynch. then who?

Surprised they didn't sacrifice a bit of cap for Cameron.
FF - Lynch
CHF - Cameron
3rd tall - Riewoldt

He's a lead and mark forward, and his hands just aren't as strong as you'd want from an elite forward.
Still a gun kick and strong body. Would gladly have had him in our line up when he was a FA.

 

[rumply]

'Shorter quarters' not the solution to game length angst

The argument for shorter quarters is gaining momentum, particularly from those in broadcast, but these are the same people contributing to the issue and there are other fixes available, writes Rohan Connolly.

www.espn.com.au

"And just why are games going longer? Well, it stands to reason it's because of the amount of "dead time" that has been added to the duration.

Ironically, it's the broadcasters themselves who are one cause, given permission to extend breaks between goals from 45 seconds to 50 to fit in more advertising. Score reviews add to the delays. So does setting up for the 6-6-6 rule, the warnings to sides which transgress it, the recalling of wonky centre bounces, and the increasingly silly-looking nomination of ruckmen.

If we're really so desperate to reduce the time between the start and finish of a match, how about we prune back some of that wasted time rather than cut the actual length of play? "

 

[citizen-erased]

'Shorter quarters' not the solution to game length angst

The argument for shorter quarters is gaining momentum, particularly from those in broadcast, but these are the same people contributing to the issue and there are other fixes available, writes Rohan Connolly.

www.espn.com.au

"And just why are games going longer? Well, it stands to reason it's because of the amount of "dead time" that has been added to the duration.

Ironically, it's the broadcasters themselves who are one cause, given permission to extend breaks between goals from 45 seconds to 50 to fit in more advertising. Score reviews add to the delays. So does setting up for the 6-6-6 rule, the warnings to sides which transgress it, the recalling of wonky centre bounces, and the increasingly silly-looking nomination of ruckmen."

So many easy fixes

1: throw the ball up in the centre/bounce it stoppages. The game has it back to front. You want a consistent CB contest. The chaos of a bounce at a stoppage will reduce the need for ruck nominations/3rd man up rules and likely helps congestion.

2: No transgression warnings for 666. Just a penalty. Stops the wait and the game flows.

Wait between bounces is fine. Can't bite the hand that feeds the economic viability of the game. It also gives a little additional time for breathers, rotations, etc.

I wouldn't be sad to see score reviews go. Maybe replace the tech with something in the goal umps ear to indicate a post has been hit.
But even then, goal umpires are largely the more capable officiators of the game. Trust them to make the right call. I'd also give the boundary riding umpires the ability to support them with the views they have, but only when the goal ump is in doubt. If no one sees a touch, post scrape, etc that the goal ump didn't see, then go with their call.

 

[Mercurial89]

There also needs to be greater promotion of rule changes somehow. For example the "run behind the mark" 50 that was paid Sunday. Absolute outrage and howls of abuse around me in the stands about how that's not a rule bla bla.

Now I don't think the umpire should've paid it purely because I don't recall it being paid at all previously and it was a weird time to start paying it. But, it is a rule. Yet I'd say the vast majority of people didn't know that.

Who's fault is that? The AFL for not promoting the change properly or the fans for not keeping up to date?

Part of it is the media cycle.
Story comes out on a rule change or interpretation, it is discussed hardcore across every format and forum by everyone involved in the game.
The AFL then release a small statement that may get small air time but it then forgotten as it never registers compares to the full blown fire that raged on the same issue for the two weeks prior.
The AFL could very easily show their umpiring DVD that they provide clubs to fans. That would clear up a lot of confusion and allow fans to actually get the information straight from the source instead of an opinion by a commentator during a game.

More and more I think the AFL needs to stop pumping as much crap into their Brownlow medal and draft stuff and do a proper season launch style production.
Get the club's involved, maybe the prior GF winner. Maybe a small doco on the year gone past, rule changes, fixture previews, pre season supplementary draft.
Make it at event to get the eyes on it and use it as a place to educate the masses and communicate.
That's just off the top of my head, don't know if it would work but it sounds like a reasonable solution.