Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVI

[BrunoV]

Does it matter why they did it? What matters is what was done was exposed.

Of course it bloody matters because you've got an unelected arm of government running the show for its own purpose.

You think Nixon is the only guy to misuse the office?

You ever notice how silent the intelligence services are when it comes to war the US starts?

Actually look into the Nixon presidency. He was more of a 'Democrat' than anyone has been since JFK.

 

[Doss]

So I suppose Richard Nixon innocent?

Look what you’ve done

 

[Beerfish]

You don't respond to questions journalist when you have the spectre of an investigation report in the background.

The journo knows he wasn't going to get a response.

Let's not be so naive.

So how exactly have they not been afforded a right of reply? You can't claim that never happened, then when shown it has claim it was never going to be accepted. Stop shifting the goal posts. They were given the opportunity. They ignored that. The article was published. You'd be naive to think it wouldn't (or worse) shouldn't be.

 

[Beerfish]

You think Nixon is the only guy to misuse the office?

Ah yes.. the good old everyone was doing it excuse.

Do you think it shouldn't have been exposed then?

 

[Doss]

So how exactly have they not been afforded a right of reply? You can't claim that never happened, then when shown it has claim it was never going to be accepted. Stop shifting the goal posts. They were given the opportunity. They ignored that. The article was published. You'd be naive to think it wouldn't (or worse) shouldn't be.

Every.Single.Time

 

[BrunoV]

Ah yes.. the good old everyone was doing it excuse.

Do you think it shouldn't have been exposed then?

Did I say that?

I specially said he wasn't innocent.

The story is not what he was doing it is that the intelligence services saw fit to overthrow him.

I can't help anyone who thinks they did it because of their morality. The morality is sadly lacking every single time they want to go to war.

 

[bombadeer]

The author of an article like a lawyer in litigation has a choice about who to rely on.

Some people willingly participate, some feel pressured into it, some do not have a choice.

A conscientious lawyer or journalist will then balance the quality of the evidence completely independently of what he or she is told by that witness against a number of factors. The stress and damage that will be done (giving evidence is a terrifying experience for most) is a factor. It's a significant factor in a story, I would have thought.

For example, Dayle Garlett's name is floating around a bit, as I understand it. Is anyone seriously going to sit here and tell me that boy wasn't so troubled that there is no point at which 'you need to straighten up, get rid of your influences and you girl' is reasonable? Where did he end up? He was a once in a generation talent that came into the game with a serious drug problem. That's public so I don't mind talking about it. I'm not going to mention the other stuff, although it is easy enough to work out.

To what extent is there a similar reality for other kids? Do we have examples in the game of players returning to WA, back to their bad influences, and it falling apart?

My points fall on deaf ears because people, as they continuously do, decide there is no need for the other side of the story. That's the emotional manipulation which in my view is deliberate. It's the jedi mind trick.

The context doesn't excuse stolen generation mk Hawthorn (I use this term because it is me acknowledging that what is alleged is as disgusting as it gets, a stain on the soul of a country).

The context shifts the paradigm completely.

If a kid is in a terrible place, and abortion is a socially accepted thing (despite it almost certainly being evil), is it beyond the pale for a club charged with the responsibility of a young kid to run through the options? Does he then think its a good idea which is how the partner gets involved in a conversation about having the kid? Is the tragedy of the subsequent decision to abort, admittedly absent any involvement of the club, a decisions neither can live with? A tragedy, no doubt, but that's no where near what has been reported.

Happy for you to make the point that the "other side of the story" hasn't been heard, however there is no substance to the hypotheticals that you weave.

I could create plenty of hypotheticals that paint a far worse picture than what is reported. For example, the courage required to speak to a reporter about traumatic events is significant. Most victims would not put themselves through it. So the systematic, racist, brutal authoritarian nature of HFC's management of First Nations players could very well be much worse than what has been revealed thus far. Victims are far more likely to sweep the reality under the carpet if they feel shamed by what they feel is their own culpability in the crimes perpetuated against them.

There is equally no evidence that my hypothetical carries any more weight than yours, but it's quite compelling. It's also potentially complete bullshit, and I've added nothing of any substance to the subject.

The issue I see with hypotheticals like this is that a lot of people have trouble in identifying their own subjectivity and will lean into things that reinforce existing beliefs. People who might hate the HFC, for example, might treat a hypothetical that paints HFC in the poorest light possible and run with it as likely fact because they want it to be true. Similarly, someone who is racist, or believes that the ABC is a source of disinformation due to, say, conspirational ideologies regarding public health measures, might believe any hypothetical that leans into these beliefs.

Essentially, the discussion of them does more harm than good IMO.

 

[Nifft]

Former Hawks assistant coach backs some allegations, players hire top lawyer

The four families at the centre of Hawthorn’s racism scandal have engaged top troubleshooting lawyer Leon Zwier to represent them in the AFL’s independent investigation into the alleged mistreatment of Indigenous players and their partners.

www.theage.com.au

 

[Beerfish]

Did I say that?

I specially said he wasn't innocent.

The story is not what he was doing it is that the intelligence services saw fit to overthrow him.

I can't help anyone who thinks they did it because of their morality. The morality is sadly lacking every single time they want to go to war.

Did I say that? They are both stories for sure. You don't have to choose between them.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yep, no boys club whitewash (no pun intended). An interested aside, I think it was Bunk Moreland who noted the way the sport has become less diverse with most players drafted from vic, and most of them coming through the private school system. I watched the Vic Metro vs Vic Country U18 game yesterday, it was stark how there was almost no one who wasn't Caucasian. I think one of the Davey boys was the only indigenous player I saw out there.

The AFL cohort, whether they like it or not, has become filtered through the Melbourne elite private school network. It’s an environment that’s overwhelmingly white and very, very privileged.

From players and ex players that has grown through coaching and administration to the highest levels.

They’re all from the same world so they don’t see the problem.

They talk about diversity and point to some gun indigenous kid from Darwin being given a scholarship.

It’s a huge problem. Adam Simpson’s comments about it were simply gob smacking.

 

[BrunoV]

Happy for you to make the point that the "other side of the story" hasn't been heard, however there is no substance to the hypotheticals that you weave.

I could create plenty of hypotheticals that paint a far worse picture than what is reported. For example, the courage required to speak to a reporter about traumatic events is significant. Most victims would not put themselves through it. So the systematic, racist, brutal authoritarian nature of HFC's management of First Nations players could very well be much worse than what has been revealed thus far. Victims are far more likely to sweep the reality under the carpet if they feel shamed by what they feel is their own culpability in the crimes perpetuated against them.

There is equally no evidence that my hypothetical carries any more weight than yours, but it's quite compelling. It's also potentially complete bullshit, and I've added nothing of any substance to the subject.

The issue I see with hypotheticals like this is that a lot of people have trouble in identifying their own subjectivity and will lean into things that reinforce existing beliefs. People who might hate the HFC, for example, might treat a hypothetical that paints HFC in the poorest light possible and run with it as likely fact because they want it to be true. Similarly, someone who is racist, or believes that the ABC is a source of disinformation due to, say, conspirational ideologies regarding public health measures, might believe any hypothetical that leans into these beliefs.

Essentially, the discussion of them does more harm than good IMO.

I'm trying to explain how there could be another side of the story where everyone has decided it is impossible.

 

[BrunoV]

Did I say that? They are both stories for sure. You don't have to choose between them.

Yes you did. You implied I was saying it's okay because everyone else was doing it.

 

[faible]

Yep, no boys club whitewash (no pun intended). An interested aside, I think it was Bunk Moreland who noted the way the sport has become less diverse with most players drafted from vic, and most of them coming through the private school system. I watched the Vic Metro vs Vic Country U18 game yesterday, it was stark how there was almost no one who wasn't Caucasian. I think one of the Davey boys was the only indigenous player I saw out there.

Victoria has never been a big catchment for Indigenous kids, those who are in the VIC leagues will either be from a relatively small population of Indigenous players growing up here, or were kids like Cyril Rioli who got scholarships to come study here.

Without looking, I'd say WA is where most Indigenous players come in to the AFL via.

 

[Beerfish]

I'm trying to explain how there could be another side of the story where everyone has decided it is impossible.

People will discuss what's happened until there's something else to discuss.

I've seen nothing so far in these other possible scenarios some people want to put forward that makes me think oh yeah well that makes sense.

 

[frodos gardener]

Honestly didn’t expect to read discussion of Richard Nixon today, but it’s 2022 and you never know what you’re gonna get.

 

[bombadeer]

I'm trying to explain how there could be another side of the story where everyone has decided it is impossible.

I don't read anything footy related other than the Essendon forum on BF and largely steer clear of social media and (although I'm sure plenty of people have hung drawn and quartered all parties already) it does seem that on this sub-forum at least, the consensus has been "If true...". Most mainstream media outlets also start with the same line.

A little credit where it's due to the forum - I wouldn't bother reading it if it was full of complete nuffies, and my block list is fairly minimal.

 

[Doss]

Victoria has never been a big catchment for Indigenous kids, those who are in the VIC leagues will either be from a relatively small population of Indigenous players growing up here, or were kids like Cyril Rioli who got scholarships to come study here.

Without looking, I'd say WA is where most Indigenous players come in to the AFL via.

SA would also be a very sizeable contributor. And relative to its small population, NT.

 

[Beerfish]

Yes you did. You implied I was saying it's okay because everyone else was doing it.

Because that's what you were implying with the section I quoted.

You're saying it's not a story because Nixon isn't the only corrupt president. You're wrong.

 

[faible]

I'm trying to explain how there could be another side of the story where everyone has decided it is impossible.

I don't think anyone has decided it's impossible there's another side to the story.

Just unlikely it justifies it.

These are two different things.

Short of the events as described simply not having happened - which appears to be your take - there's exceptionally little that would justify an AFL coach bullying a player in to breaking up with a pregnant partner, and pushing that partner to have an abortion.

Your totally bizarre line here that you've snuck in says a hell of a lot;

abortion is a socially accepted thing (despite it almost certainly being evil)

 

[yodellinhank]

SA would also be a very sizeable contributor. And relative to its small population, NT.

owen87
Image was too large for me to attach, but

AFL Players launch 2022 Indigenous Map

The AFLPA has launched the 2022 Indigenous Map.

www.aflplayers.com.au

 

[faible]

owen87
Image was too large for me to attach, but

AFL Players launch 2022 Indigenous Map

The AFLPA has launched the 2022 Indigenous Map.

www.aflplayers.com.au

It's impressive how many players come out of the tiny communities of Halls Creek and the Tiwi Islands.

 

[silk]

Cool. Take your reality somewhere else.

You're done here.

Love your work. Strait back to Telegram for him.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Of course it bloody matters because you've got an unelected arm of government running the show for its own purpose.

You think Nixon is the only guy to misuse the office?

You ever notice how silent the intelligence services are when it comes to war the US starts?

Actually look into the Nixon presidency. He was more of a 'Democrat' than anyone has been since JFK.

Yeah, nah.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Did I say that?

I specially said he wasn't innocent.

The story is not what he was doing it is that the intelligence services saw fit to overthrow him.

I can't help anyone who thinks they did it because of their morality. The morality is sadly lacking every single time they want to go to war.

Agree, but only in part. Nixon went so far as to tell the South Vietnamese government to boycott peace talks so he could make LBJ look bad and win the election.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

Honestly didn’t expect to read discussion of Richard Nixon today, but it’s 2022 and you never know what you’re gonna get.

You're welcome.