Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

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Was at the Hawks and Pies game today.
Hawks do three things really well. Very good at winning the ball at ground level .
5 or 6 really good users of the footy in the back half and midfield .
Speed across several lines .
They basically win the footy cleanly and then they have the speed to break the lines and get away with running in front of the footy by having some really good users of the footy.
Wet day helped their small forwards dominate the game.
They made the Pies look old and slow.
Hawks are still very suspect as far as defensive structure goes but the speed helps cover some of that and also that speed helps with the pressure game .
Mass has found his spot on the wing where he can run his own race and is playing really well. Still does not defend but their overall system covers it.
They have kept improving based on them getting all their midfield back and ruining into good form.
Big tick to their ruck who basically put it on a platter all day.
Looking at their side today they really only desperately need a good KPF . Frost is a bit shaky at FB but they cover it well.
They look much more balanced than we do.
 

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ant555 said:
Was at the Hawks and Pies game today.
Hawks do three things really well. Very good at winning the ball at ground level .
5 or 6 really good users of the footy in the back half and midfield .
Speed across several lines .
They basically win the footy cleanly and then they have the speed to break the lines and get away with running in front of the footy by having some really good users of the footy.
Click to expand...
Some saying we have a lot more talent than them but a bit of a falsehood with their speed and kicking skills you mention as well as a massive unit competitive ruck and a couple of decent small forwards.
 
ant555 said:
Was at the Hawks and Pies game today.
Hawks do three things really well. Very good at winning the ball at ground level .
5 or 6 really good users of the footy in the back half and midfield .
Speed across several lines .
They basically win the footy cleanly and then they have the speed to break the lines and get away with running in front of the footy by having some really good users of the footy.
Wet day helped their small forwards dominate the game.
They made the Pies look old and slow.
Hawks are still very suspect as far as defensive structure goes but the speed helps cover some of that and also that speed helps with the pressure game .
Mass has found his spot on the wing where he can run his own race and is playing really well. Still does not defend but their overall system covers it.
They have kept improving based on them getting all their midfield back and ruining into good form.
Big tick to their ruck who basically put it on a platter all day.
Looking at their side today they really only desperately need a good KPF . Frost is a bit shaky at FB but they cover it well.
They look much more balanced than we do.
Click to expand...
In bold is our achilies. Esp in forward half.

Stringer got caught all night. Guelfi, Menzie & Gresham not quick enough.

Need to replace at least 1 with a Davey and I don't care they are not defensive, we looked a better side with Davey in it.
 
BrunoV said:
Hawthorn's percentage is now just over 100%.

They started a rebuild at the end of 2022 with a list in disarray and without the pieces like Saad and Daniher to trade into the top 10.

We took 3 top 10 picks 2 years earlier, starting a rebuild that 24 months earlier, and they've just flown past us.

If Massimo isn't in out next premiership team we're not winning a premiership in the next 10 to 17 years. Honestly, the club is still so incapable of seeing the forest for the trees we are probably only half way through one of those legendary ruts.
Click to expand...
I agree they are further advanced but just on the build timeline what we did in 2020 was a previous football departments **** up and we are at a point where we are working to reset it again.

Whatever you think of Scott as a coach and the decisions he makes the rebuild we started in 2020 gets set back because we changed the Coach / GM of football and brought in a CEO to specifically drive football and not the bottom line . It is a clear change in direction again and it has only been in place since late 2022 and the fact is last year was just as much about looking at what we needed in place to set up this years football program to start the build going forward. There was no time at the end of 2022 to make many moves to change a lot in 2023. I know you do not buy this but the info I have I trust 100%.

They have passed us but a lot of the players that are driving it now where already there going back to the 2017 draft .
They have been very astute recently to top it up for sure with some very good picks.
Their GM of footy , Rob McCartney ,started the in the role in 2021 the same year that Mitchell was promoted into the succession plan as did McKenzie who took over as List manager. McCartney had been in previous roles within the Hawks so he had been part of their last system. McKenzie has been in their recruitment for a while to.
They have had stability in the football department since 2021 and several key personal where part of the last era.
Even though the list was a bit shabby because of the Clarkson top up plan they still had some decent young stock to work with via Wright when he was in the job.

We have had everything but stability in the key roles so our 2020 draft is relevant to current issues but has nothing to do with the current Coach and list management team . We are also coming off years of several coaches and average administrations. People have to accept that despite what happened in 2020 we are actually starting again with a different list management team , different CEO , different president , different coach , more development staff and new football program.

So yes it looks like they will pass us but they have actually had their shit together longer than us. They did not start a rebuild at the end of 2022 . It started well before that .
 
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LOL at COllingwood "injuries, injuries injuries" but still had 15 or 16 of their premiership team on the park tonight
 
Corleone said:
They are a professional modern football club and if their most recent dynasty didn't make that clear the next one will just be more salt on the wound.
Click to expand...
lmao next dynasty? they don't have the cattle to win another flag and they'll be taking themselves out of the elite end of the draft for the next few years and hey look its tassie time.

they are a treadmill team (6-12) in the making and those off years down the line they won't be getting pick 6, they'll be getting pick 12-15+ in a compromised draft.

but i'm sure josh battle will elevate them.
 
bombreys said:
Another worrying thing is our players much, much closer in age to Collingwood than they are Hawthorn
Click to expand...

Age is not everything. Personally I think it is the mixture of both that gets you to where you are going. Carlton and North are classic examples of sides who ended up using too much broom and condemned themselves to too many years of pain because they where too young with limited experience. Personally I have no issues if a few older players transition in and out while a few younger blokes get some experience or learn the standards needed.
 
D'Ambrosio is a classic dammed if you do dammed if you don't example for us. I get that people get annoyed when he is out there getting 25 touches and hitting targets 80% of the time while we continue to butcher the footy . It is annoying for sure but it comes down to how you rate individual areas of the game. I was not overly concerned when he went and I predicted he would do what he is doing now. I am still not totally concerned as I rate fixing our team defense as the number one priority despite the fact I would like to be using the footy a bit better.

Mass is a sublime kick but also very slow as far as defensive transition goes. He fits in well with the Hawks plan as the have a game plan based on speed ( back and forward ) and midfielders who win the ball at ground level better than anyone in the comp. They can play him on the wing and the non defense is not a factor. I do not think our list is in the same position to play the game plan they do.

Mass has one tool we really need but he is also deficient in one area we really need to fix. He is also not a marking option.

Given Scott was hired to fix the defensive issues and produce a professional program it is no real shock we did not put up a massive fight to keep him despite his ability to use the footy.

I do not put much weight into the Martin argument either. The Hawks did not get mass to play at half back. He plays on a wing with a bit of half forward. Any work he does in the back half is based on being an extra and not a defensive extra. Despite Martin not being a great one on one defender his defensive transition is much quicker compared to Mass . Martin also has the height to be a factor as far as marking or spoiling. There is no way we are slotting Mass at half back and moving forward so if we kept him and used him on a wing we would need the team defense that covers for him and speed in the back half plus speed in the small forwards to apply pressure.

As far as Heppell v Mass that is more lineball but Heppell was only kept for the leadership value and ability to at least work to the defensive game plan . It is a fine line between that value and the output and Heppell is done but if you want to build a system you have to start with guys who do have the ability to understand and actually work within that plan . They may not be great players or players in their prime and their football output may not match what a young bloke may give but you have to get the system in place and then add in the new players as they work it out.

He fits in Hawthorns system as he is an add on that his one wood works for them and their system is actually more advanced than ours with more of the pieces to play that system in place.. He is a good player. For me he would help fix one issue for us but also create problems and would most likely get tagged out of the game as our only offensive kicking option.
 

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ant555 said:
D'Ambrosio is a classic dammed if you do dammed if you don't example for us. I get that people get annoyed when he is out there getting 25 touches and hitting targets 80% of the time while we continue to butcher the footy . It is annoying for sure but it comes down to how you rate individual areas of the game. I was not overly concerned when he went and I predicted he would do what he is doing now. I am still not totally concerned as I rate fixing our team defense as the number one priority despite the fact I would like to be using the footy a bit better.

Mass is a sublime kick but also very slow as far as defensive transition goes. He fits in well with the Hawks plan as the have a game plan based on speed ( back and forward ) and midfielders who win the ball at ground level better than anyone in the comp. They can play him on the wing and the non defense is not a factor. I do not think our list is in the same position to play the game plan they do.

Mass has one tool we really need but he is also deficient in one area we really need to fix. He is also not a marking option.

Given Scott was hired to fix the defensive issues and produce a professional program it is no real shock we did not put up a massive fight to keep him despite his ability to use the footy.

I do not put much weight into the Martin argument either. The Hawks did not get mass to play at half back. He plays on a wing with a bit of half forward. Any work he does in the back half is based on being an extra and not a defensive extra. Despite Martin not being a great one on one defender his defensive transition is much quicker compared to Mass . Martin also has the height to be a factor as far as marking or spoiling. There is no way we are slotting Mass at half back and moving forward so if we kept him and used him on a wing we would need the team defense that covers for him and speed in the back half plus speed in the small forwards to apply pressure.

As far as Heppell v Mass that is more lineball but Heppell was only kept for the leadership value and ability to at least work to the defensive game plan . It is a fine line between that value and the output and Heppell is done but if you want to build a system you have to start with guys who do have the ability to understand and actually work within that plan . They may not be great players or players in their prime and their football output may not match what a young bloke may give but you have to get the system in place and then add in the new players as they work it out.

He fits in Hawthorns system as he is an add on that his one wood works for them and their system is actually more advanced than ours with more of the pieces to play that system in place.. He is a good player. For me he would help fix one issue for us but also create problems and would most likely get tagged out of the game as our only offensive kicking option.
Click to expand...
He’s a better wingman than Jones and Cox in an attacking sense. Mass is also more physical this season and ahead of those two and don’t think he’s any worse in defensive transition.

We stuffed up ..just have to accept it
 
Nothing wrong with admitting we got one wrong. World won't stop turning.
 
TheGreatBarryB said:
He’s a better wingman than Jones and Cox in an attacking sense. Mass is also more physical this season and ahead of those two and don’t think he’s any worse in defensive transition.

We stuffed up ..just have to accept it
Click to expand...
His defensive transition is horrible. It is slow and it effects his offensive game when he is asked to think about it too much.
Yes his wing output is better. Yes I agree Cox is not a wing. Jones has only played 3 games there.
Long term is he better than Martin and Duursma as the wings ?
People are talking about our current use of players like it is locked in stone they will be the same for 10 years.
The other thing is Mass is playing in a system that is totally different to ours and is based on different personal. He is playing to his full potential because they have speed in the back half to move the footy and he can set up how he wants and not have to concentrate too much on defense. Their system also has the benefit of several quick half forwards that pressure better than ours. That is why his output is better.
It is too simple to just say we stuffed up and he would be doing the same on the wing for us as he is doing now.
 
Call Me Cake said:
Mass is shit and was a liability with no defensive game to his body. Has one good game and you're all tooting his horn. Recency bias is the clear indicator of NPC behaviour.
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He’s been the highest rated winger in the afl this year you flop. He’s had a really good season.
 
andleanback said:
He’s been the highest rated winger in the afl this year you flop. He’s had a really good season.
Click to expand...

You're using a 3 month old article for today 🤣 He is average/below average in all stats and is lower in rating points at this point than even Duursma who has missed chunks of footy (and who is actually elite in a category), most certaintly due to Massimo's quiet games of recent such as during the smashing by Geelong in Round 17.

Recency bias however forgets that and gives him little spotfires of fame when he bobs up. As I said, he has no defensive nous to his overall game and that's a liability to any side that needs to be on the same page defensively and no out of the blue game and flavour of the week hit-piece will change that to anyone other than those who have NFI. Flop lmao.
 

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Oppo Camp Non-Essendon Football Thread XVII

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