2nds Official Swans Academy Thread (Player News and Discussion)

[robbieando]

But in the end we might end up taking up to 4 academy players for later picks or rookie selections that end up playing a lot of senior football and become solid footballers.

I seriously don't think we will take that many one I would expect, but not more than two. We have a log jam with our rookie list as it is and history shows that just because because you are picked from our academy doesn't equate to success (Perris, Hiscox, Davis, Foote, Brown and the younger Jack never made a go of it). To take more would mean adding Wicks and/or Bell to the above list and limits the success of the academy to our big hitters in Heeney, Mills, Blakey and because I'm being kind Naismith

 

[Blood red]

I seriously don't think we will take that many one I would expect, but not more than two. We have a log jam with our rookie list as it is and history shows that just because because you are picked from our academy doesn't equate to success (Perris, Hiscox, Davis, Foote, Brown and the younger Jack never made a go of it). To take more would mean adding Wicks and/or Bell to the above list and limits the success of the academy to our big hitters in Heeney, Mills, Blakey and because I'm being kind Naismith

That is a pretty sad list.
But how many can you add to the list that never made it who were drafted from outside the academy as small skillful players who might develop?
How many of this years young listed players in the NEAFL will develop?
The current academy players are willing to play a role for their teams, they see the bigger picture rather then individual glory. Seems that will be their downfall.
They have taught them to be bloods (Micko O, Nick Davies and Crouchy) and they have bought into it. Now they look outside for the stat gatherers and individual glory players???
Makes NO sense.

 

[DST]

I seriously don't think we will take that many one I would expect, but not more than two. We have a log jam with our rookie list as it is and history shows that just because because you are picked from our academy doesn't equate to success (Perris, Hiscox, Davis, Foote, Brown and the younger Jack never made a go of it). To take more would mean adding Wicks and/or Bell to the above list and limits the success of the academy to our big hitters in Heeney, Mills, Blakey and because I'm being kind Naismith

I can’t see them passing up Rayner, Parks and Thorne. Our NAB U18 side was very competitive this year.

You could argue a case for Ellem too, although extremely raw.

But agree that Wicks and Bell also deserve further development and a chance to make it.

There will be fierce competition for the last main list and rookie spots this year.


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[dunno4]

I can’t see them passing up Rayner, Parks and Thorne. Our NAB U18 side was very competitive this year.

You could argue a case for Ellem too, although extremely raw.

But agree that Wicks and Bell also deserve further development and a chance to make it.

There will be fierce competition for the last main list and rookie spots this year.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

I understand that Rayner is ‘over footy’. Got 99.5 in ATAR and has plenty of options in front of him outside footy


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[dunno4]

4 clubs need to nominate a player so that they get an invite to the combine. There will be the state screening later on for the players each club wants tested.

The Swans have no control over this process and would've nominated academy players they're interested in. 3 (or less) clubs didn't follow suit to get that player the invite.

Why would an interstate club bother to nominate an Academy player when the Swans get them at a discount? Only real top talent might get an invite.

Also the whole drafting process gets tipped on its head if the Swans finish bottom 4. Suddenly with higher picks more players are on the radar. The less risk they are likely to take with Academy players.


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[Grand Uncle Horace]

I can’t see them passing up Rayner, Parks and Thorne. Our NAB U18 side was very competitive this year.

You could argue a case for Ellem too, although extremely raw.

But agree that Wicks and Bell also deserve further development and a chance to make it.

There will be fierce competition for the last main list and rookie spots this year.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

There is likely to be an exodus from the main list. This should open chances for those already on the Rookie List. I would really like Bell and/or Wicks to get a debut this year. Bell was terrific on Sunday and Wicks has turned in several top notch efforts this year.

Barling looks a pretty handy player as well as Thorne etc mentioned above.

 

[SGBeach]

I understand that Rayner is ‘over footy’. Got 99.5 in ATAR and has plenty of options in front of him outside footy


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

maybe he's smart enough to know that if he wants to follow his footy dream, now is his chance.. and.. theres a long life after footy to use his intellect

 

[RobbieK]

There is likely to be an exodus from the main list. This should open chances for those already on the Rookie List. I would really like Bell and/or Wicks to get a debut this year. Bell was terrific on Sunday and Wicks has turned in several top notch efforts this year.

Barling looks a pretty handy player as well as Thorne etc mentioned above.

Yup, how many of these guys are still on the list in 2020?

Darcy Cameron
Harry Cunningham
Robbie Fox
Kieren Jack
Zak Jones
Jack Maibaum
Jarrad McVeigh
Daniel Menzel
James Rose
Nick Smith

I would be pretty surprised if even half were retained. Grundy is already gone on top of that.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Yup, how many of these guys are still on the list in 2020?

Darcy Cameron
Harry Cunningham
Robbie Fox
Kieren Jack
Zak Jones
Jack Maibaum
Jarrad McVeigh
Daniel Menzel
James Rose
Nick Smith

I would be pretty surprised if even half were retained. Grundy is already gone on top of that.

I reckon three at the most.

 

[Blood red]

Why would an interstate club bother to nominate an Academy player when the Swans get them at a discount? Only real top talent might get an invite.

Also the whole drafting process gets tipped on its head if the Swans finish bottom 4. Suddenly with higher picks more players are on the radar. The less risk they are likely to take with Academy players.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Risk?
They risk hoping that an interstate kid "develops", whereas, they know how these guys play and have rated them good enough openly on multiple times.

 

[SeanM]

I don't think we will take that many academy players as rookies this year. We already have three extra rookies from the mid season drafts.

They will probably add them to the u19 development squad like Wicks was. Which means they can train with the club and still be selected as rookies the following year if good enough.

 

[RobbieK]

I reckon three at the most.

Pretty much every one of them has question marks of some sort.

You would think that Jack and McVeigh are definitely retiring. Possibly Smith too. Jones is constantly rumoured to be heading back to Melbourne. Cameron and Maibaum have both been injured exactly when we needed them and so haven't got any exposed form at AFL level despite being on the list for some time. Fox, Menzel and Rose have all been unable to solidify a spot in the 22 this year despite being available. Cunningham is probably the one I would be most certain about being here next season.

 

[SeanM]

Yup, how many of these guys are still on the list in 2020?

Darcy Cameron
Harry Cunningham
Robbie Fox
Kieren Jack
Zak Jones
Jack Maibaum
Jarrad McVeigh
Daniel Menzel
James Rose
Nick Smith

I would be pretty surprised if even half were retained. Grundy is already gone on top of that.

My guess

Tippett, mcveigh, Jack, smith and grundy probably retire.

I think they will try to resign maibaum for kpd depth.

Will try to resign cunningham and jones but they may leave for better offers.

Cameron probably leaves for better opportunity.

Unsure about menzel rose and fox. But i think fox is most likely for his versatility.

 

[Ralphyboy]

Based on the past couple of years, and the rules, the Cat b rookie spots are for the academy kids. Firstly they don't need to bid for an academy kid, they simply register as a cat b prior to draft night. Second the cat b player salary is not taken into account for the overall salary cap. Currently wicks and bell are cat B. Belly was taken in his draft year after a couple of allies games, and maybe the state combine. Wicks was taken in his nds year after being overlooked by allies twice, and no combine invites. His development this year is pointing to a smart pick by the swans.

Accordingly the swans are not beholden to the allies, combines etc. They are very interested in neafl performance and believe that pathway is actually superior to allies etc as it indicates how the player will perform within the swans framework, and against men. The allies is simply too random to give a reasonable indication.

Regarding some comment by Crouchy. I would be amazed if he denigrated the academy program like that. I can assure you from first hand experience that the academy staff strongly consider their program to be in advance of the victorian program. Their reasoning is:

1. The academy is run by swans coaching staff and forms part of an afl club. The NAB teams are standalone and do not implement afl club frameworks and programs
2. The level of training and fitness work at the swans is far more advanced than the NAB teams. At the swans they are taught how to perform gym work properly, they get serious nutrition and they must learn structures etc. An NDS player for example does a preseason with the senior squad and trains with the seniors during the year. It is widely accepted that an academy player drafted by the swans will be a year ahead of a nab cup player. Most nab cup players will not have experienced a proper preseason.
3. The academy players get to play neafl. They get to play against men and afl listed players. Most NAB cup players arrive never having played a senior game. For example cody hirst had never played a senior game before arriving at the swans.

I am sure that the academy staff would be very passionate about these differences. Their main issue is that the interstate recruiters still largely feel that they have enough talent in the traditional areas. I know, again from direct experience, that the interstate interest is growing and this year there is more interest than last year.

The swans recruitment team very consciously keep the academy and the recruiters separate. They deliberately make sure they simply recruit the very best players from all sources. When you look at the size of the pool in victoria it makes sense that they will pick the majority from there. It makes sense that only 1 perhaps 2 academy will be drafted. In previous years it has been 2 (bell/brown then blakey/wicks). To bias academy would be a disaster.

In my view the academy is doing everything it can to get the boys there. It was the swans who pushed to re enter the nab cup to give the boys more exposure, and it is the swans who have pushed to improve the allies coaching by getting crouchy onboard.

At this point in time it is the clubs outside of nsw who do not see the value in looking too closely at sydney players.

For an academy player this leaves you with the question, should I go to Victoria and play NAB football and get more exposure given the other clubs will not look too closely at Sydney players. This is a difficult question. Dan Robinson did it and got drafted back by the swans! In last couple of years a couple of swans academy kids have done it, and none of them got drafted. I know of one kid who was invited to move to victoria but chose to stay with the academy for the reasons above, and did get drafted.

The pros of moving are the opportunity to get exposure in front of 12 victorian clubs. The cons are many:

1. You lose the benefit of the academy program as outlined above
2. You run the risk of trashing your hsc year
3. You start at the bottom in a new team and club
4. You do not have mum and dad to support you.

On balance the victorian move is risky and frankly if you can overcome all of the obstacles in victoria you would be good enough to get drafted from Sydney anyway.

In my view kids are better staying in sydney. Play NDS, get better, then when they are better equipped head off to sanfl or VFL where they have a good run at being drafted.

 

[RobbieK]

My guess

Tippett, mcveigh, Jack, smith and grundy probably retire.

I think they will try to resign maibaum for kpd depth.

Will try to resign cunningham and jones but they may leave for better offers.

Cameron probably leaves for better opportunity.

Unsure about menzel rose and fox. But i think fox is most likely for his versatility.

I agree with pretty much all of that.

Maibaum was looking like he was definitely set for AFL football this year before he got injured and we are lackign in KPD stocks, which might just be enough to get him over the line for one more season.

Fox may get a look in, but he is in a similar position to Dean Towers last year - a versatile player who you know can do a job, but not carving out a permanent role in the side and getting to the age where you can't really expect to see further improbement and you start to contemplate replacing them for a player five or six years younger who possibly has a higher ceiling.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Pretty much every one of them has question marks of some sort.

You would think that Jack and McVeigh are definitely retiring. Possibly Smith too. Jones is constantly rumoured to be heading back to Melbourne. Cameron and Maibaum have both been injured exactly when we needed them and so haven't got any exposed form at AFL level despite being on the list for some time. Fox, Menzel and Rose have all been unable to solidify a spot in the 22 this year despite being available. Cunningham is probably the one I would be most certain about being here next season.

Yep. I reckon Maibaum, Cunningham and one of Fox or Rose - assuming Jones goes.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Based on the past couple of years, and the rules, the Cat b rookie spots are for the academy kids. Firstly they don't need to bid for an academy kid, they simply register as a cat b prior to draft night. Second the cat b player salary is not taken into account for the overall salary cap. Currently wicks and bell are cat B. Belly was taken in his draft year after a couple of allies games, and maybe the state combine. Wicks was taken in his nds year after being overlooked by allies twice, and no combine invites. His development this year is pointing to a smart pick by the swans.

Accordingly the swans are not beholden to the allies, combines etc. They are very interested in neafl performance and believe that pathway is actually superior to allies etc as it indicates how the player will perform within the swans framework, and against men. The allies is simply too random to give a reasonable indication.

Regarding some comment by Crouchy. I would be amazed if he denigrated the academy program like that. I can assure you from first hand experience that the academy staff strongly consider their program to be in advance of the victorian program. Their reasoning is:

1. The academy is run by swans coaching staff and forms part of an afl club. The NAB teams are standalone and do not implement afl club frameworks and programs
2. The level of training and fitness work at the swans is far more advanced than the NAB teams. At the swans they are taught how to perform gym work properly, they get serious nutrition and they must learn structures etc. An NDS player for example does a preseason with the senior squad and trains with the seniors during the year. It is widely accepted that an academy player drafted by the swans will be a year ahead of a nab cup player. Most nab cup players will not have experienced a proper preseason.
3. The academy players get to play neafl. They get to play against men and afl listed players. Most NAB cup players arrive never having played a senior game. For example cody hirst had never played a senior game before arriving at the swans.

I am sure that the academy staff would be very passionate about these differences. Their main issue is that the interstate recruiters still largely feel that they have enough talent in the traditional areas. I know, again from direct experience, that the interstate interest is growing and this year there is more interest than last year.

The swans recruitment team very consciously keep the academy and the recruiters separate. They deliberately make sure they simply recruit the very best players from all sources. When you look at the size of the pool in victoria it makes sense that they will pick the majority from there. It makes sense that only 1 perhaps 2 academy will be drafted. In previous years it has been 2 (bell/brown then blakey/wicks). To bias academy would be a disaster.

In my view the academy is doing everything it can to get the boys there. It was the swans who pushed to re enter the nab cup to give the boys more exposure, and it is the swans who have pushed to improve the allies coaching by getting crouchy onboard.

At this point in time it is the clubs outside of nsw who do not see the value in looking too closely at sydney players.

For an academy player this leaves you with the question, should I go to Victoria and play NAB football and get more exposure given the other clubs will not look too closely at Sydney players. This is a difficult question. Dan Robinson did it and got drafted back by the swans! In last couple of years a couple of swans academy kids have done it, and none of them got drafted. I know of one kid who was invited to move to victoria but chose to stay with the academy for the reasons above, and did get drafted.

The pros of moving are the opportunity to get exposure in front of 12 victorian clubs. The cons are many:

1. You lose the benefit of the academy program as outlined above
2. You run the risk of trashing your hsc year
3. You start at the bottom in a new team and club
4. You do not have mum and dad to support you.

On balance the victorian move is risky and frankly if you can overcome all of the obstacles in victoria you would be good enough to get drafted from Sydney anyway.

In my view kids are better staying in sydney. Play NDS, get better, then when they are better equipped head off to sanfl or VFL where they have a good run at being drafted.

Crouchy did not denigrate the program (it was me who reported on the interview). Rather he stressed the challenges of working with highly stretched resources. I think he would love a bit more support including specialist support to coaches of junior footy clubs in NSW. There is no doubting his commitment.

 

[Cynic2019]

Jared Crouch?
If the head coach believes the swans academy is behind, would that not be an indictment on the coaching?
Maybe there in lies the issue?!
This years 18s group has been discribed as the greatest depth ever. So if so few are acknowledged at draft time, then maybe they need to review the program and all staff involved?
Some selections that are put fwd at all levels, TAC, NEAFL and Allies make people scratch their heads. But it seems that some opinions are placed higher then talent.

Make no bones about it, the kids never had a chance to show off their abilities. The coaching was disciplined, boring, every play had a pretty determined destination, it had no flair, no run. The game plan was as dour as the coach. It was embarrassing, adding to that the selfishness that was allowed to fester. The skill deficiencies, that could have been righted, were never pulled up. We know that because they kept happening.
So many kids have been left ruined, confused and I'm betting many will give it away disillusioned.
So many kids that dominated the trials, never got a look in after that, and bizarrely got pigeon holed, never to see the light of day.
Crouch, Smith need to go, and the Academy needs a complete overhaul. It's a nightmare factory.
Why in the hell would you play negative boring football. Every kid has a flair for the game and should be encouraged to take the game on. The cream will rise. The 2018 class never had a chance. So many talented kids will be put to the sword.
As an example, one kid who moved to Vic, would have probably been cut at benchmark, is now at Combine. The kid is a good player, but imo there was 25 players ahead of him on talent. I wish that young man every success, he was lucky enough to escape the negative clutches of the Academy.

 

[SeanM]

I think the contract decisions on our current rookies is going to be hard because I can see some upside in all of them.

Reynolds has already been resigned. And I think Wicks will be resigned based on performance as a tackling forward.

I hope that tucker and hirst get resigned. Tucker looked good in his pre-draft highlights as a medium natural defender who could replace nick smith. So i hope he gets a chance to recover from injury and play. Hirst is small but he is a good runner, ok with the ball and attacks the contest without fear. But both seem longer term prospects.

 

[Ralphyboy]

Make no bones about it, the kids never had a chance to show off their abilities. The coaching was disciplined, boring, every play had a pretty determined destination, it had no flair, no run. The game plan was as dour as the coach. It was embarrassing, adding to that the selfishness that was allowed to fester. The skill deficiencies, that could have been righted, were never pulled up. We know that because they kept happening.
So many kids have been left ruined, confused and I'm betting many will give it away disillusioned.
So many kids that dominated the trials, never got a look in after that, and bizarrely got pigeon holed, never to see the light of day.
Crouch, Smith need to go, and the Academy needs a complete overhaul. It's a nightmare factory.
Why in the hell would you play negative boring football. Every kid has a flair for the game and should be encouraged to take the game on. The cream will rise. The 2018 class never had a chance. So many talented kids will be put to the sword.
As an example, one kid who moved to Vic, would have probably been cut at benchmark, is now at Combine. The kid is a good player, but imo there was 25 players ahead of him on talent. I wish that young man every success, he was lucky enough to escape the negative clutches of the Academy.

Strong views for your first post! Respect! Unfortunately the boring football is a consequence of the game. Loose attacking football usually means a side gets murdered on the rebound. Players need to be able to burst and run, but also need to cover space, and lock down players on the rebound. James Rose is a classic example of a player who has immense talent but really struggles to defend and adhere to structures. As a result he kills it in neafl when he plays against guys he is way better than, but struggles at senior level where he needs to do the defensive 1 per centers. Thats the nature of the game.

Who is the kid at the combine? Its ok to name him!

 

[Cynic2019]

Strong views for your first post! Respect! Unfortunately the boring football is a consequence of the game. Loose attacking football usually means a side gets murdered on the rebound. Players need to be able to burst and run, but also need to cover space, and lock down players on the rebound. James Rose is a example of a player who has immense talent but really struggles to defend and adhere to structures. As a result he kills it in neafl when he plays against guys he is way better than, but struggles at senior level where he needs to do the defensive 1 per centers. Thats the nature of the game.

Who is the kid at the combine? Its ok to name him!

I'd prefer not name the young fella.

As for the nature of the game. There is ample time to teach kids negative football, the game needs match winners, footballers not scared to make mistakes, to break the lines. Who have a quick mind under pressure. Can hit targets and not just bomb down the line. Crouch liked predictable players, like himself. Reliable, dour, fit, hard, negative, consistent.
Crouch never had the ability to win a game. That's the way he coached. Boring.
So many capable footballers absolutely butchered, it's distressing.

 

[Cynic2019]

Q&A

The Swan's academy must be happy with the whole Draft process.
Not ONE academy member invited to the Draft combine.
Allies selections, playing U17s or the game structure/coaching/management of such a talented squad to blame?
A total slap in the face for all involved!

The Swans Board need to clean out the Academy. It's become a nepotistic cesspit. It's too late for this crop, supposedly "the best" year group that have come through. The mismanagement of this group is a horror movie. A lot of the kids, the coaching staff rated, never dominated the local competitions. I never understood the way they ranked them. They never corresponded with club coaches, that would be below the "SWANS". Fancy getting feedback from those that watch them every week.
The trial games at the beginning of the year, the players that played well, never got another chance. Like WTF. Then there where those selected to play NEAFL.......phwww, it was like they'd been to the school, of turnover Tony Malakelis. Their poor decision making was rewarded with more games. Really!!!!!! It just kept happening and kept happening.
Then, less look at the NEAFL, the top ups, are totally ignored so listed players stats look inflated. The exercise, benefits no one. If a recruiter can gauge a top up players talent from a NEAFL game they have better judgement than Einstein.
If a top up has over 10 stats, they should be named BOG. So for these poor kids who have busted their backsides for years, that's their "shot" at the big time.
When the listed players, had no other choice but to pass it too a top up, "for a few", they looked better, cleaner and more capable than the listed players. Go figure. There lies the anomaly. Some look brilliant, and may have got one or two games. But they were gifted those games, cause they never really rated them. Then they persisted with one's, that never learnt from their mistakes. Your talking 10-20 games.
I'm not that bad of judge, if I am, I should drown myself.
The whole of Sydney Football needs a revamp, straight after Auskick. In many ways it's a basket case.
What has happened this year for Sydney football is a tune to a natural disaster.

 

[6yearsold]

Q&A

The Swans Board need to clean out the Academy. It's become a nepotistic cesspit. It's too late for this crop, supposedly "the best" year group that have come through. The mismanagement of this group is a horror movie. A lot of the kids, the coaching staff rated, never dominated the local competitions. I never understood the way they ranked them. They never corresponded with club coaches, that would be below the "SWANS". Fancy getting feedback from those that watch them every week.
The trial games at the beginning of the year, the players that played well, never got another chance. Like WTF. Then there where those selected to play NEAFL.......phwww, it was like they'd been to the school, of turnover Tony Malakelis. Their poor decision making was rewarded with more games. Really!!!!!! It just kept happening and kept happening.
Then, less look at the NEAFL, the top ups, are totally ignored so listed players stats look inflated. The exercise, benefits no one. If a recruiter can gauge a top up players talent from a NEAFL game they have better judgement than Einstein.
If a top up has over 10 stats, they should be named BOG. So for these poor kids who have busted their backsides for years, that's their "shot" at the big time.
When the listed players, had no other choice but to pass it too a top up, "for a few", they looked better, cleaner and more capable than the listed players. Go figure. There lies the anomaly. Some look brilliant, and may have got one or two games. But they were gifted those games, cause they never really rated them. Then they persisted with one's, that never learnt from their mistakes. Your talking 10-20 games.
I'm not that bad of judge, if I am, I should drown myself.
The whole of Sydney Football needs a revamp, straight after Auskick. In many ways it's a basket case.
What has happened this year for Sydney football is a tune to a natural disaster.

I get the feeling your son never made the cut.

 

[Cynic2019]

I get the feeling your son never made the cut.

There would be a dozen. And I'm not that stupid.

 

[Cynic2019]

There would be a dozen. And I'm not that stupid.

Not one Swans player to Combine.......