Our best rolling 22

[Macca43]

ffs

Not upset, sworn, claimed the others opinion is bizarre or claimed to be unbiased. I do enjoy a rational discussion and as noted our opinions are in fact not that far apart.

 

[Macca43]

This team is centred around midfield rotation.

FB - Plowman, Jones, Marchbank

HB - Saad, Weitering, Docherty

M - Williamson, Cripps, Walsh

HF - Martin, Casboult, Gibbons

FF - Fisher, McKay, Betts

FOL - De Koning, Setterfield, Williams

I/C - Murphy, Petrevski-Seton, E. Curnow, Silvagni

EMG - Kemp, Newnes, Cuningham, McGovern

INJ - C. Curnow, Newman


ROTATIONS
~ SPS and Willo between HB and wing
~ Walsh between on ball and wing
~ JSOS on ball to let Cripps rest forward
~ Williams and Martin between HF and wing/on ball
~ Murphy and Gibbons between HF and wing/on ball

JUSTIFICATION
~ Betts - Was our leading goal kicker for the first half of the year before the condensed fixture. Still think he has more to give, especially in front of crowds.
~ Murphy - Happy to leave him in the side for now, until Willo solidifies a permanent spot on the wing, or SPS to move full time into the middle. Same can be said about Dow, Stocker, Kemp, Philp etc.
~ Gibbons - It was either between him or Newnes. Gibbo is higher on tackles, score involvements and metres gained. Newnes higher on average goals (only by 0.1). Both have similar possession numbers and disposal efficiency. I chose Gibbons.

Good side, only difference is I have Fogarty, you have Gibbons.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Nobody can type correct english anymore ... it's truly tragic.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I would enjoy watching that 22 thats for sure, genuinely exciting players on every line, if the likes of Williamson, Cuningham, Fisher, Dow, Fogarty and McGovern can all make themselves best 22 players we will be playing finals for sure but it might be a bit too much to ask for all of them to pay off.

Yeah certainly looks an exciting and quick team on paper, it’s more one chosen on projection of the younger players coming through having great preseasons and strong performances hopefully picking themselves...
Most of those players you have mentioned and a few more on the periphery for different reasons individually, will make such a big impact if they go next level and produce greater consistency, which hopefully we get a better indication with some early on through preseason games and ready to go Rd1, then as the season unfolds...

 

[Arr0w]

Delfections? They are explanations.

Robinson was delisted because of various off field issues and basically a Malthouse induced depression - I don't see Newnes and Gibbons having that sort of upside. Here is another player in that list - Hodge, he won a couple of awards didn't he? Stefan Martin was another player on it, he won a club B&F as well.

For someone who apparently doesn't care what the round 1 side is and has no bias you seem to get very upset when someone lists a side whose only differnce is it leaves Newnes and Gibbons out of the side for two aging elite players.

If you aren't buying it, let it go.

Again, focusing on one name

You were wrong, but you dont need to admit it, everyone is aware of your bias

 

[Macca43]

Again, focusing on one name

You were wrong, but you dont need to admit it, everyone is aware of your bias

One name? There is 3 there.

wrong about what exactly? Finals teams have fewer foot soldiers and better quality role specific foot soldiers, it is simple logic, better teams have more better players. If we don’t improve the quality of player in our side we won’t make finals.

Again strong words from a bloke who supposedly doesn’t care.

As for people being aware of my bias, people are aware of yours as well, but the difference is I am aware of my bias. You have to ask why you are getting so cranky over a hypothetical team where we have 2 players different.

 

[Arr0w]

One name? There is 3 there.

wrong about what exactly? Finals teams have fewer foot soldiers and better quality role specific foot soldiers, it is simple logic, better teams have more better players. If we don’t improve the quality of player in our side we won’t make finals.

Again strong words from a bloke who supposedly doesn’t care.

As for people being aware of my bias, people are aware of yours as well, but the difference is I am aware of my bias. You have to ask why you are getting so cranky over a hypothetical team where we have 2 players different.

Walker, Christensen, Adams, McCarthy, Lyons? Selective?

Wrong about Newnes, Gibbons being outside best 25 and or wrong that there were better options, last year

Wrong about footsoilders, us and other finals sides

As for 2 player difference, have another look, wrong again

Gibbons and Newnes lost games for us, another shit assessment purely based on bias

It's either bias or you have no idea

 

[Macca43]

Walker, Christensen, Adams, McCarthy, Lyons? Selective?

Wrong about Newnes, Gibbons being outside best 25 and or wrong that there were better options, last year

Wrong about footsoilders, us and other finals sides

As for 2 player difference, have another look, wrong again

Gibbons and Newnes lost games for us, another sh*t assessment purely based on bias

It's either bias or you have no idea

Not selective just couldn’t remember, Christensen and Lyons have performed bpmuch better than Gibbins and Newnes, I,d take McCarthy over both as well. How many games did Walker, Christensen and Adams play in 2020?

2 player difference if Newman is fit.

But anyway I’m done - who am I to challenge the one bloke in the world who is unbiased and his opinion is fact. Good luck to you.

 

[Arr0w]

Not selective just couldn’t remember, Christensen and Lyons have performed bpmuch better than Gibbins and Newnes, I,d take McCarthy over both as well. How many games did Walker, Christensen and Adams play in 2020?

2 player difference if Newman is fit.

But anyway I’m done - who am I to challenge the one bloke in the world who is unbiased and his opinion is fact. Good luck to you.

Again deflecting

Not 2020 Lions, 2019 when they finished in the 8 after 5 wins in 2018.

Better still let's dissect each of your claims, starting with this...

Which " few games" did Newnes lose for us. Name the games and incident

 

[Macca43]

Again deflecting

Not 2020 Lions, 2019 when they finished in the 8 after 5 wins in 2018.

Better still let's dissect each of your claims, starting with this...

Which " few games" did Newnes lose for us. Name the games and incident

2019 none of those 3 players played more than 13 games - again foot soldiers getting overtaken as the team improves.

But I’m done, good thing you don’t care, you too can let it go.

 

[Arr0w]

2019 none of those 3 players played more than 13 games - again foot soldiers getting overtaken as the team improves.

But I’m done, good thing you don’t care, you too can let it go.

We will get to the footsoilders soon enough

Nothing on the Newnes losing a few games for us?

 

[Blue and Blue]

We will get to the footsoilders soon enough

Nothing on the Newnes losing a few games for us?

What I saw was he helped win us a few.

 

[The Smoking Gun]

This team is centred around midfield rotation.

FB - Plowman, Jones, Marchbank

HB - Saad, Weitering, Docherty

M - Williamson, Cripps, Walsh

HF - Martin, Casboult, Gibbons

FF - Fisher, McKay, Betts

FOL - De Koning, Setterfield, Williams

I/C - Murphy, Petrevski-Seton, E. Curnow, Silvagni

EMG - Kemp, Newnes, Cuningham, McGovern

INJ - C. Curnow, Newman


ROTATIONS
~ SPS and Willo between HB and wing
~ Walsh between on ball and wing
~ JSOS on ball to let Cripps rest forward
~ Williams and Martin between HF and wing/on ball
~ Murphy and Gibbons between HF and wing/on ball

JUSTIFICATION
~ Betts - Was our leading goal kicker for the first half of the year before the condensed fixture. Still think he has more to give, especially in front of crowds.
~ Murphy - Happy to leave him in the side for now, until Willo solidifies a permanent spot on the wing, or SPS to move full time into the middle. Same can be said about Dow, Stocker, Kemp, Philp etc.
~ Gibbons - It was either between him or Newnes. Gibbo is higher on tackles, score involvements and metres gained. Newnes higher on average goals (only by 0.1). Both have similar possession numbers and disposal efficiency. I chose Gibbons.

Not bad, but I've gone with a slightly different setup, subject to injury.

B: Plowman, Jones, Newman
HB: Saad, Weitering, Williamson
C: Williams, Cripps, Docherty
HF: Martin, Casboult, Gibbons
F: Fogarty, McKay, Silvagni
R: TDK, Setterfield, Walsh
IC: SPS, Newnes, E.Curnow, Fisher

Three players that could potentially ramp up the dynamics and power in that side if they can regain/improve their fitness would be Charlie, Kemp & Stocker.
Fringe players to watch now that we'll most likely to have proper reserves competition will be Cottrell, Philp & Honey.
Newman - No more or less likely to be ready than Marchbank according to my spies. Adds an enormous amount of versatility as to where you can play Docherty, Saad, Willo, SPS, Martin & Williams.

 

[THE_GUN]

Interesting that not many have Dow in their best 25- any longer
think he could still show something and break into the top 22 by the end of the year

 

[Macca43]

We will get to the footsoilders soon enough

Nothing on the Newnes losing a few games for us?

That comment was hyperbole designed to highlight the fact that despite only averaging 13 possessions Newnes averaged 2 clangers and almost 3 turnovers a game going at less than 69% DE and points in game like the one at the 2 minute mark in the below video against the lions where the game was tight, our defence had been under siege and Newnes coughs up the ball (I could also point to his fumble in the centre of the ground that turned a great rebound opportunity into a Lions goal)



Alternatively you could question the impact of his 8 possession 1 tackle game in a 1 point loss to the Dees while his direct opponent Hunt kicked 3 goals.

But anyway if you want Newnes and Gibbons in your hypothetical side thats fine, I don't and that should be fine as well.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Interesting that not many have Dow in their best 25- any longer
think he could still show something and break into the top 22 by the end of the year

He was only ever "Best 22" when Best 22 meant "Best 8 plus a bunch of kids we wanna fast-track and some stopgaps who we need to make up the numbers".

I'm still reasonably confident he makes the grade, I just think there needs to be a light bulb moment for him when he realises that he needs to take full ownership of his development. I hope that moment comes soon, and while he's at Carlton, because it would be incredibly frustrating to see us move on from him only for him to have an epiphany at Geelong...

Has plenty of tools, still has development to come, but I have a suspicion (highlighting this specific word so Macca doesn't have a conniption) that he's one of the many AFL players who think that by rocking up to the club 5 days a week and doing what the coaches tell him to do is enough. That only gets you so far. Spending a lot of time this off-season with Walshy can only be to his benefit, because that's a young bloke who is clearly always looking for ways to improve himself and his game.

If Dow is genuinely best 22 at some point this year, I'll be over the moon. I don't think he's far away either, but the last hurdle is an internal one and not one that anyone can lift him over, nor is it just an inevitability given more time.

 

[Blue and Blue]

He was only ever "Best 22" when Best 22 meant "Best 8 plus a bunch of kids we wanna fast-track and some stopgaps who we need to make up the numbers".

I'm still reasonably confident he makes the grade, I just think there needs to be a light bulb moment for him when he realises that he needs to take full ownership of his development. I hope that moment comes soon, and while he's at Carlton, because it would be incredibly frustrating to see us move on from him only for him to have an epiphany at Geelong...

Has plenty of tools, still has development to come, but I have a suspicion (highlighting this specific word so Macca doesn't have a conniption) that he's one of the many AFL players who think that by rocking up to the club 5 days a week and doing what the coaches tell him to do is enough. That only gets you so far. Spending a lot of time this off-season with Walshy can only be to his benefit, because that's a young bloke who is clearly always looking for ways to improve himself and his game.

If Dow is genuinely best 22 at some point this year, I'll be over the moon. I don't think he's far away either, but the last hurdle is an internal one and not one that anyone can lift him over, nor is it just an inevitability given more time.

Errrrrrr serious injury...force way into side on form...then injured again. 5 days a week what the hell is that?

No I am not the Dow fanclub but leaving out all the pertinent facts is always gonna get you or anyone else called out.

 

[Macca43]

He was only ever "Best 22" when Best 22 meant "Best 8 plus a bunch of kids we wanna fast-track and some stopgaps who we need to make up the numbers".

I'm still reasonably confident he makes the grade, I just think there needs to be a light bulb moment for him when he realises that he needs to take full ownership of his development. I hope that moment comes soon, and while he's at Carlton, because it would be incredibly frustrating to see us move on from him only for him to have an epiphany at Geelong...

Has plenty of tools, still has development to come, but I have a suspicion (highlighting this specific word so Macca doesn't have a conniption) that he's one of the many AFL players who think that by rocking up to the club 5 days a week and doing what the coaches tell him to do is enough. That only gets you so far. Spending a lot of time this off-season with Walshy can only be to his benefit, because that's a young bloke who is clearly always looking for ways to improve himself and his game.

If Dow is genuinely best 22 at some point this year, I'll be over the moon. I don't think he's far away either, but the last hurdle is an internal one and not one that anyone can lift him over, nor is it just an inevitability given more time.

And your suspicion is based on?

You are entitled to your suspicion, I'll go with the feed back from the coaches who work with him everyday though.

 

[Arr0w]

That comment was hyperbole designed to highlight the fact that despite only averaging 13 possessions Newnes averaged 2 clangers and almost 3 turnovers a game going at less than 69% DE and points in game like the one at the 2 minute mark in the below video against the lions where the game was tight, our defence had been under siege and Newnes coughs up the ball (I could also point to his fumble in the centre of the ground that turned a great rebound opportunity into a Lions goal)



Alternatively you could question the impact of his 8 possession 1 tackle game in a 1 point loss to the Dees while his direct opponent Hunt kicked 3 goals.

But anyway if you want Newnes and Gibbons in your hypothetical side thats fine, I don't and that should be fine as well.

So Newnes didn't actually lose any games for us, yeah?

 

[Macca43]

So Newnes didn't actually lose any games for us, yeah?

For a bloke who doesn't care you are putting a lot of effort in.

Move on champ.

 

[Aphrodite]

For a bloke who doesn't care you are putting a lot of effort in.

Move on champ.

How about you do the same.

 

[Macca43]

How about you do the same.

Happy to, been trying to shut the conversation down for some time,

 

[Blue__Balls]

Errrrrrr serious injury...force way into side on form...then injured again. 5 days a week what the hell is that?

No I am not the Dow fanclub but leaving out all the pertinent facts is always gonna get you or anyone else called out.

Body of work as a whole, he doesn't go hard enough for long enough in my view. His elevation to the seniors last year reinforced that - he wasn't ready, and didn't look ready (though the year wasn't conducive to it, to be fair).

I'm aware he's had some setbacks along the way, but even so I believe he should be further along than he is. And it's between the ears where the change needs to happen. He looks to me like a player who is coasting a bit, rather than one going above and beyond to break into the side.

 

[Macca43]

Body of work as a whole, he doesn't go hard enough for long enough in my view. His elevation to the seniors last year reinforced that - he wasn't ready, and didn't look ready (though the year wasn't conducive to it, to be fair).

I'm aware he's had some setbacks along the way, but even so I believe he should be further along than he is. And it's between the ears where the change needs to happen. He looks to me like a player who is coasting a bit, rather than one going above and beyond to break into the side.

I would say you can't take anything from last year as evidence, hampered by injury and not having serious hit outs in the reserves - I would put more emphasis on doing extra sessions with Diesel and coaches being impressed with the way he came back and has trained so far.

I think any "between the ears" changes revolve around confidence and possibly learning how far he can actually push himself (different to coasting) but I am encouraged by the noises coming out of the blues this pre-season. I think it will only take a couple of good performances during the pre-season for the belief to be created and things will hopefully snowball from there.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Back on topic anyway...

FB: Docherty, Jones, Plowman
HB: Saad, Weitering, SPS
C: Walsh, Williams, Williamson*
R: TDK, Cripps, Setterfield
HF: Martin, Casboult, Fisher
FF: Betts, McKay, McGovern
I/C: Curnow, Murphy, XXXXXX, XXXXXX

I've got two spots up for grabs, and an asterisk on Willo on the wing as I'm unsure if they'll actually look to play him there or keep him predominantly off half back.

If he plays back, then I could see him starting on the bench and Murph being a preferred option on the wing instead.

Those last two bench spots are tough though.

Reliability and consistency should have Newnes, Gibbons, JSOS and Newman in the frame, or Pittonet if we want a ruck duo...
If he's fit, then Marchbank might deserve a spot.
Potential upside and point-of-difference considerations might elevate Cunners or Fogarty.
Then there's a block of relative youngsters who could be rotated through on form - Dow, Stocker, O'Brien, Kemp, Honey, Owies, Durdin and Cottrell.

I think we'll start the year a bit conservatively with something like JSOS and Newnes/Gibbons in those final spots. Kids then get introduced either through injury to starters or because we're losing and need to bring in some "enthusiasm". If we get some good wins on the board we'll probably try to ride the momentum with minimal changes.

Only ones I can't really see being in the discussion this far out are Kennedy (looking purely like depth these days), Curnow (injured), Philp (development required), Ramsay (development required), Carroll (development required) and Parks (development required).