Our Ruckmen

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tommyk72 said:
HJ - is there a reason why Skipper is not then one of your three listed players vying for the last rookie spot?
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Basically, Skipper wasn't rated very highly by those close to the club that I have spoken with.

Was smashed in ruckwork when up against the top ruckman. His disposal statistics were quite poor and I believe he kicked something like 1 goal 7 behinds.

Personally from watching from the grandstands, I thought he was handier than that but that's the story basically.

And Tails, well, I think the game has gawn past him especially with the interchange bench being reduced ect.

Best of luck to both of them :thumbsu:
 
Realistically, does anyone think if Bailey doesn't come up we would aggressively chase an A grade ruckman? It has been so damn long since we had a GOOD ruckmen, we've had serviceable ones or reasonable ones, but they always had a drawback, we've never had the complete package so to speak.

Imagine one of the premier ruckmen in hawks colours, Sandilands, Jolly, Cox, Hille, Macintosh etc, we're due! You have to assume the addition of someone with that kind of talent would make a big difference.

Give the opposition worries all over the ground, rather than having the comfort of generally knowing they'll dominate the ruck AND have a mobile, skilled ruckman running around the park. Cox averages something like 20+ possessions, Sandilands nails goals fairly regularly, they're all good contested marks etc etc.

I know Lowden is looking promising, but is he looking A grade promising? and how soon is soon, one year, two, three? I suppose it then boils down to the amount of room we have in our salary cap which I assume is not much (and will be less as our great players demand more $$$)
 
Beandip said:
Realistically, does anyone think if Bailey doesn't come up we would aggressively chase an A grade ruckman? It has been so damn long since we had a GOOD ruckmen, we've had serviceable ones or reasonable ones, but they always had a drawback, we've never had the complete package so to speak.

Imagine one of the premier ruckmen in hawks colours, Sandilands, Jolly, Cox, Hille, Macintosh etc, we're due! You have to assume the addition of someone with that kind of talent would make a big difference.

Give the opposition worries all over the ground, rather than having the comfort of generally knowing they'll dominate the ruck AND have a mobile, skilled ruckman running around the park. Cox averages something like 20+ possessions, Sandilands nails goals fairly regularly, they're all good contested marks etc etc.

I know Lowden is looking promising, but is he looking A grade promising? and how soon is soon, one year, two, three? I suppose it then boils down to the amount of room we have in our salary cap which I assume is not much (and will be less as our great players demand more $$$)
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Personally i do not think ruckmen will be our focus in the coming years we are low on tall KPs. We need to keep recruiting for the future. Half forward flankers capable of kicking goals and half back flankers with plenty of run and carry and we could always do with more midfielders. Renouf, Lowden and Grimley are our future in the ruck if Bailey doesn't come up
 

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Henry Jr said:
Basically, Skipper wasn't rated very highly by those close to the club that I have spoken with.

Was smashed in ruckwork when up against the top ruckman. His disposal statistics were quite poor and I believe he kicked something like 1 goal 7 behinds.
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That's it in a nutshell.
 
Beandip said:
Realistically, does anyone think if Bailey doesn't come up we would aggressively chase an A grade ruckman? It has been so damn long since we had a GOOD ruckmen, we've had serviceable ones or reasonable ones, but they always had a drawback, we've never had the complete package so to speak.

Imagine one of the premier ruckmen in hawks colours, Sandilands, Jolly, Cox, Hille, Macintosh etc, we're due! You have to assume the addition of someone with that kind of talent would make a big difference.

Give the opposition worries all over the ground, rather than having the comfort of generally knowing they'll dominate the ruck AND have a mobile, skilled ruckman running around the park. Cox averages something like 20+ possessions, Sandilands nails goals fairly regularly, they're all good contested marks etc etc.

I know Lowden is looking promising, but is he looking A grade promising? and how soon is soon, one year, two, three? I suppose it then boils down to the amount of room we have in our salary cap which I assume is not much (and will be less as our great players demand more $$$)
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Luke turned 20 today. There are no other ruckmen in the AFL who are able to play senior footy at that age. The young man has huge potential but needs the time to allow his very large body to develop and be able to withstand the rigors of playing in the ruck.
 
I fully appreciate that N24, and I didn't mean my comments in a derogatory way at all, but at the same time it illustrates my point. Is it worth chasing an A grade 24-26 year old ruckman for the few years that Lowden won't be ready?

I'm not a talent scout, nor really know how they acclaim people, but by 20 they must have a fairly good insight as to just how good someone will be, I guess what I'm trying to get at is would Lowden at 20, be comparable to the other ruckmen I mentioned at 20?
 
Number 24 said:
Luke turned 20 today. There are no other ruckmen in the AFL who are able to play senior footy at that age. The young man has huge potential but needs the time to allow his very large body to develop and be able to withstand the rigors of playing in the ruck.
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Nat-a-nui
 
go hawks!!! said:
Nat-a-nui
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Natanui is the exception rather than the rule. Most top ruckmen are in their mid 20s when the reach there peak and clubs must make a decision as to whether they will draft young ruckmen and develop them for 4 or 5 years or trade for one at his peak which generally costs a bit. People forget Cox and Sandilands both started as rookies and put in a number of years learning the trade before reaching their peak. Jolly left Melbourne for the Swans because he was not an automatic selection with the Demons. Mark Jamar was just a battler at Melbourne (more often in the reserves) before a break out year in 2010. Blokes like Lowden and Grimley need time invested in them to build their bodies and develop their skills without unrealistic expectations being imposed. Are they potential A grade ruckmen? I doubt if anyone knew that about Cox or Sandilands in their first few years but they were given the chance to develop their potential.
I am more concerned about the back up we have for Hale and Renouf if Bailey breaks down as the prospect of Roughead rucking is fraught with danger. It would appear the only big (200cm, 100kg+) ruckman available to us now is Paul johnson and he has missed the preseason due to a foot injury.
 
It is strange we did not sniff around Robbie C and offer him a rookie spot. Robbie on one leg is a better option than PJ. PJ plays like a poor man's Skipper.

Hale and Suzie are a good enough combo. If any team loses their first two rucks they are in strife.

I am looking forward to seeing Lowden this year. He will pinch hit the odd game depending on the opposition.
 
FriarTuck said:
It is strange we did not sniff around Robbie C and offer him a rookie spot. Robbie on one leg is a better option than PJ. PJ plays like a poor man's Skipper.

Hale and Suzie are a good enough combo. If any team loses their first two rucks they are in strife.

I am looking forward to seeing Lowden this year. He will pinch hit the odd game depending on the opposition.
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Robbie is currently on the injured list at Melbourne. I don't think we could gamble on having both Bailey and Campbell on our list with their medical prognoses. At least Renouf has proven relatively durable and I hope Hale proves likewise.
 
dermott said:
Robbie is currently on the injured list at Melbourne. I don't think we could gamble on having both Bailey and Campbell on our list with their medical prognoses. At least Renouf has proven relatively durable and I hope Hale proves likewise.
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Just wondering if the club thought that Robbie would fall through and then they could have nominated him for the training squad rather than Johnson. Just a thought....
 
How time have changed..

One similarity between Simon and Justin Madden, Paul Salmon, Peter Moore, Carl Ditterich, Don Scott, Gary Dempsey, Brad Ottens, Jamie Charman, Drew Petrie and Steven King (amongst others) is they all debuted well before their 19th birthday - Madden at only 16.
 
I know its like kicking a puppy but i'll say it anyway

We really should have delisted Max or at least downgraded him to a rookie spot. Knee swelling after an intra-club does not bode well. No doubt he is the most talented ruckman on our list but he averages 1 game per year. Sometimes you just need to make a hard decision. Muston had a similar issue and we all know how that ended.
 

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Henry Jr said:
Basically, Skipper wasn't rated very highly by those close to the club that I have spoken with.

Was smashed in ruckwork when up against the top ruckman. His disposal statistics were quite poor and I believe he kicked something like 1 goal 7 behinds.

Personally from watching from the grandstands, I thought he was handier than that but that's the story basically.

And Tails, well, I think the game has gawn past him especially with the interchange bench being reduced ect.

Best of luck to both of them :thumbsu:
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Thanks HJ - insight much appreciated. I was the same as you. Without looking at the stats I thought he had performed much better!
 
Beandip said:
I know Lowden is looking promising, but is he looking A grade promising? and how soon is soon, one year, two, three? I suppose it then boils down to the amount of room we have in our salary cap which I assume is not much (and will be less as our great players demand more $$$)
Click to expand...

I watched Lowden very closely last year.

He occasionally did things that are pretty special, including one audacious act where he gave 'a don't argue' to an opposition midfielder on the wing and then ran off him. I still can't believe that one. At times he showed that he was a very good mark around the ground. So the potential of that part of his game can't not be faulted. He really is, potentially a Pelchonite A or B grader as an 'around the ground' ruckman. ie D. Cox.

However, as a tap ruckman he has a very long way to go. This is to be expected from a kid who did not have the opportunity to play TAC cup because we drafted him. This was compounded when he effectively missed his first year with a shoulder injury Hawks sustatined because some geniuses, like "Euler" Evans or perhaps even "Cauchy" Clarkson, at the club, threw him into a totally pointless pre-season stratch match at Berri where, playing against men, he smashed his shoulder. Recovering from this and ongoing groin issues have severely limited his game time and hence his development.

He desperately needs a lot of time with very high quality specialist coaching to bring his ruck work up to standard. He also needs to harden his body considerably. I can't see him becoming an truly effective AFL ruckman in the next two years at all, and 2013/4 is potentially still development time for him.

Remember he is still only 20 and young ruckman can take a very long time but if he can add at least another ~10kgs, the website has him at 89kg, learn how to ruck, and stay relatively injury free then we should have a very good prospect on our hands.
 
ordivician said:
I watched Lowden very closely last year.

He occasionally did things that are pretty special, including one audacious act where he gave 'a don't argue' to an opposition midfielder on the wing and then ran off him. I still can't believe that one. At times he showed that he was a very good mark around the ground. So the potential of that part of his game can't not be faulted. He really is, potentially a Pelchonite A or B grader as an 'around the ground' ruckman. ie D. Cox.

However, as a tap ruckman he has a very long way to go. This is to be expected from a kid who did not have the opportunity to play TAC cup because we drafted him. This was compounded when he effectively missed his first year with a shoulder injury Hawks sustatined because some geniuses, like "Euler" Evans or perhaps even "Cauchy" Clarkson, at the club, threw him into a totally pointless pre-season stratch match at Berri where, playing against men, he smashed his shoulder. Recovering from this and ongoing groin issues have severely limited his game time and hence his development.

He desperately needs a lot of time with very high quality specialist coaching to bring his ruck work up to standard. He also needs to harden his body considerably. I can't see him becoming an truly effective AFL ruckman in the next two years at all, and 2013/4 is potentially still development time for him.

Remember he is still only 20 and young ruckman can take a very long time but if he can add at least another ~10kgs, the website has him at 89kg, learn how to ruck, and stay relatively injury free then we should have a very good prospect on our hands.
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I agree with most of this post. I think Luke has shown both on the field at BHH and at training flashes of what he has to offer. There is a very good ruck coach at HFC now in the person of Monkey, so that aspect is covered. He was only 17yo when he did his shoulder and would have played mostly school footy that year anyway. The next preseason he really threw himself into it and did not know how to read his body and suffered OP (or similar) which affected him into 2010. He is completely over that now and is in full training. 2011 will be a BHH year and, possibly a game or two with HFC. 2012 will be his year to make his mark with the Hawks. This kid can run, really run, he can catch it and kick it...is a very good kick for someone so tall. He will learn ruck skills this year at BHH and working with Monkey......A lot to look forward to in this very early draft chioce.
 
Number 24 said:
Luke turned 20 today. There are no other ruckmen in the AFL who are able to play senior footy at that age. The young man has huge potential but needs the time to allow his very large body to develop and be able to withstand the rigors of playing in the ruck.
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Anyone know how old Renouf was in 08?
 
Brent was 20 in 2008 and lucky to play in the GF ahead of Taylor.

Height200cmWeight98kgDOB03-05-1988DebutAFL 2008
 
I've been super stoked ever since I read we procured the big Monkey as our ruck coach, he is a likable character, and has great skills, also from what I've heard he is quite insightful and a good teacher.
So here's hoping he can impart that to the youngsters, and Lowden can absorb it all like a premium price sponge :p

Excellent news regarding the group training, I hope Max is able to manage his knee swelling in a mutually beneficial way, is it the type of thing where he'd be shooting Quarterzone into the knee? I always have fingers crossed for Max, I think it shows amazing character to have been shut down so hard 3 times, and keep rising back up to it without just throwing in the towel, not sure if it's something I could do, and for that I salute him.
Also good to hear Hale is training, does that mean he has fully recovered from the Achilles?
 
Beandip said:
I've been super stoked ever since I read we procured the big Monkey as our ruck coach, he is a likable character, and has great skills, also from what I've heard he is quite insightful and a good teacher.
So here's hoping he can impart that to the youngsters, and Lowden can absorb it all like a premium price sponge :p

Excellent news regarding the group training, I hope Max is able to manage his knee swelling in a mutually beneficial way, is it the type of thing where he'd be shooting Quarterzone into the knee? I always have fingers crossed for Max, I think it shows amazing character to have been shut down so hard 3 times, and keep rising back up to it without just throwing in the towel, not sure if it's something I could do, and for that I salute him.
Also good to hear Hale is training, does that mean he has fully recovered from the Achilles?
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You would assume so, just read that he would've played in Perth but he rolled his ankle at the last training session before the team left, and was hence left out. I think I speak for all of us when I say caution is definately the best way to go about things at this stage of the year.

Also, I suspect you will struggle find a bigger sentimental favorite than Big Max on Bigfooty, let alone the Hawks board. Here's hoping all his bad luck is behind him :thumbsu:
 
I may just be a dreamer, but none of us batted an eyelid when it was announced that Buddy wouldn't be playing due to an operation...so I'm not feeling 100% convinced that Max's swelling is that bad.

I just wonder if either the club didn't want him to take the flight to Perth because it's a long way to go, particularly for a tall guy when we're playing interstate for the first real match - or if they just didn't want him roughed up in the NAB for no good reason.

I could be totally wrong, and maybe the prognosis isn't great - but I'm hoping that he's not really particularly badly off, and the club think that they've seen what they need in the intraclub and they want to keep him for the season proper?
 

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