Owners

[Fryer Tuck]

An Allam Out thread has been launched and puts his reign at Hull in a pretty bleak light. Yes he pumped in money to save us - but as with Newcastle our debt has grown - in fact almost doubled I believe - and he is charging interest on his 'loan' which was supposedly a 'gift' to the city. A common defence of Allam is he saved us from becoming a Portsmouth, but we were never in as poor a position as Portsmouth, and may have gone down to League One but then would have slowly recovered.

http://www.allamout.co.uk/

Hmm, that is some interesting reading there. It’s good that they are locals, and they did rescue the club and bought it back up to Premier League standard. While the main point seems to be the discarding of the City name for Hull Tigers, there are some other key issues, like interest being charged on the debt and the increase in ticket prices. Heck, they’re not doing anything for the community, aside for the professional rugby team. Just like Ashley, they have a sour relationship with the city council.


There’s also some nasty bits of manipulations and ‘two-facedness’ going on from the older Allem (The younger one seems more level headed from what I’m seeing.) I can see why there is so much of a split between fans and owners on this one.


While I can see why advertising as Tigers in Asia will be more likely to stick, it’s very gimmicky and is not the thing that will win new fans over. As Man City have learned, it is success that brings in the new fans, hence why when you think of City, you think of Man City (He actually wanted to call them Manchester Hunters? What?) And also Chelsea with their recent success.


As an identity, Hull have their own city to themselves, they have a pretty unique colour in orange (The only other club that could compete would be Wolvehampton. Already that’s better than Sunderland/Stoke/Southampton [Try teaching a casual to spot the difference between those three], or any teams in blue or red), to accompany the tiger motif. You don’t need a cheap name change. Look at the merchandise that we’re advertising in Bangkok:

It’s quite obvious which team is being represented here, and I’ll give a hint, it’s the only team that has a fox right in the centre of the badge! (Note: I know of Carlisle United fox theme, but I’m talking in terms of our advertising… besides, they don’t have the fox for their main logo). I think foreign fans will quickly link up Hull with Tigers just by looking at the logo… or at least the old logo, the new one’s a bit gash.


Basically, Hull is in a good position where they have unique motifs that they can advertise, and if they are successful on the pitch, then they will win fans.


Of course, to get success, one has to invest in the club. Now, compared to Newcastle, I know it says the Allams are investing in the club, but exactly how well is he investing? Players, facilities, academy? All key features. I don’t suppose you mind expanding over the improvements that have been made since the Allams took over, and what sort of investments has gone into players? What has been your transfer market activity been like? I think there were plans of upgrading the academy to a higher tier, but you missed out or something like that? (Believe you mentioned it a bit earlier?)

Look at me, so full of questions...

 

[SM]

He's charging you interest on his loan? Ouch! By loan, I'm guessing you mean what he's had to put in for the club?

That sucks.

Yep, same thing Ashley is doing I believe. He claims he gave a gift to the community by rescuing the club, but...

 

[moomba]

Don't necessarily see that it's a bad thing to charge interest on loans to the club. We had it with John Wardle, he ended up writing the lot off when he sold to Shinawatra.

Depends on the rate, and if he is claiming that he's not charging interest thats another matter.

 

[SM]

Hmm, that is some interesting reading there. It’s good that they are locals, and they did rescue the club and bought it back up to Premier League standard. While the main point seems to be the discarding of the City name for Hull Tigers, there are some other key issues, like interest being charged on the debt and the increase in ticket prices. Heck, they’re not doing anything for the community, aside for the professional rugby team. Just like Ashley, they have a sour relationship with the city council.


There’s also some nasty bits of manipulations and ‘two-facedness’ going on from the older Allem (The younger one seems more level headed from what I’m seeing.) I can see why there is so much of a split between fans and owners on this one.


While I can see why advertising as Tigers in Asia will be more likely to stick, it’s very gimmicky and is not the thing that will win new fans over. As Man City have learned, it is success that brings in the new fans, hence why when you think of City, you think of Man City (He actually wanted to call them Manchester Hunters? What?) And also Chelsea with their recent success.


As an identity, Hull have their own city to themselves, they have a pretty unique colour in orange (The only other club that could compete would be Wolvehampton. Already that’s better than Sunderland/Stoke/Southampton [Try teaching a casual to spot the difference between those three], or any teams in blue or red), to accompany the tiger motif. You don’t need a cheap name change. Look at the merchandise that we’re advertising in Bangkok:

It’s quite obvious which team is being represented here, and I’ll give a hint, it’s the only team that has a fox right in the centre of the badge! (Note: I know of Carlisle United fox theme, but I’m talking in terms of our advertising… besides, they don’t have the fox for their main logo). I think foreign fans will quickly link up Hull with Tigers just by looking at the logo… or at least the old logo, the new one’s a bit gash.


Basically, Hull is in a good position where they have unique motifs that they can advertise, and if they are successful on the pitch, then they will win fans.


Of course, to get success, one has to invest in the club. Now, compared to Newcastle, I know it says the Allams are investing in the club, but exactly how well is he investing? Players, facilities, academy? All key features. I don’t suppose you mind expanding over the improvements that have been made since the Allams took over, and what sort of investments has gone into players? What has been your transfer market activity been like? I think there were plans of upgrading the academy to a higher tier, but you missed out or something like that? (Believe you mentioned it a bit earlier?)

Look at me, so full of questions...

He's increased spending on the academy from 800k -> 2m, move them to new facilities, brought in a heap of players - though that's more down to the PL money than his own - though he's getting interest back on any penny he puts in the club. We missed out on Tier 2 but are getting another audit in September. The Council is on the verge of taking legal action against him for putting down a 3G pitch in a public sports facility and banning the public from using it.

I don't understand how owners don't realise that success breeds support, and that the best way to increase revenue and support overseas is to do better and thus market yourself better to fans.

 

[SM]

Don't necessarily see that it's a bad thing to charge interest on loans to the club. We had it with John Wardle, he ended up writing the lot off when he sold to Shinawatra.

Depends on the rate, and if he is claiming that he's not charging interest thats another matter.

I don't know if he ever specifically said he wasn't charging interest, but he has repeatedly said he gave the club the money as a gift which is blatantly untrue.

 

[jd2010]

52,387 capacity and the attendance was reported to be 47,000 not much of a success unfortunately

 

[moomba]

52,387 capacity and the attendance was reported to be 47,000 not much of a success unfortunately

Season ticket holders are automatically counted in attendance figures so official attendance figures are always going to be on the high side. Any season ticket holder that did show up would have been counted as one of those 47k.

 

[jd2010]

Season ticket holders are automatically counted in attendance figures so official attendance figures are always going to be on the high side. Any season ticket holder that did show up would have been counted as one of those 47k.

Oh yes of course. The famed Arsenal trick for attendance figures!! From watching the game on TV it did look like there was a few empty seats here & there. What would have made it more noticeable is if there was huge chunks of seats near each other empty. Away support definitely the more audible when watching

 

[simba_]

Season ticket holders are automatically counted in attendance figures so official attendance figures are always going to be on the high side. Any season ticket holder that did show up would have been counted as one of those 47k.

huh? so if they had only 20k there but have 30k season ticket holders, the minimum they'd announce as attendance is 30k?

 

[moomba]

huh? so if they had only 20k there but have 30k season ticket holders, the minimum they'd announce as attendance is 30k?

Yeah, pretty standard across clubs too I think.

 

[simba_]

man, membership and attendance numbers are the worst wank fest!

 

[Zidane98]

FWIW we publish actual attendance figures. I was at the Bolton game years ago start of 2011 and there was a "protest" against Woy and only 35k turned up. 2 games later he was fired.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

52,387 capacity and the attendance was reported to be 47,000 not much of a success unfortunately

huh? so if they had only 20k there but have 30k season ticket holders, the minimum they'd announce as attendance is 30k?

I believe the 47k figure the club announced was based on tickets sold (including season tickets), not the number who went through the turnstiles.

I think its common across the league though wouldn't surprise me if they partly revealed the number to try and 'quash' the hopes of fans.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Any plans to boycott games SM by the Hull fans?

I guess for you guys, it comes at a precarious time when the club would be looking to try and ensure survival (guessing, unlike some sections of the Toon army, most Hull fans would agree that relegation would be a bad thing).

I know some Toon fans are going to try and support the team to 'ward' off relegation but a lot seem pretty indifferent.

 

[SM]

Any plans to boycott games SM by the Hull fans?

I guess for you guys, it comes at a precarious time when the club would be looking to try and ensure survival (guessing, unlike some sections of the Toon army, most Hull fans would agree that relegation would be a bad thing).

I know some Toon fans are going to try and support the team to 'ward' off relegation but a lot seem pretty indifferent.

No plans because it would impact on the team performance and that's far more important. If we were comfortably mid-table then certainly I think it would be on the cards.

 

[Fryer Tuck]

He's increased spending on the academy from 800k -> 2m, move them to new facilities, brought in a heap of players - though that's more down to the PL money than his own - though he's getting interest back on any penny he puts in the club. We missed out on Tier 2 but are getting another audit in September. The Council is on the verge of taking legal action against him for putting down a 3G pitch in a public sports facility and banning the public from using it.

I don't understand how owners don't realise that success breeds support, and that the best way to increase revenue and support overseas is to do better and thus market yourself better to fans.

Well, it sounds like the funding is definitely there, but also as you say, that's more likely to be PL money than his actual money (I take it these improvements only came once you got to the Premier League, rather than getting the foundations done when you were still in the Championship). That's not exactly a good way to get onside with your community, banning the public from using the pitch and getting offside on the council. It does make me wonder what happens if you guys get relegated? He's already proven that it is his way or the highway, and Allam does seem like the kind of guy that demands his loan be paid right away. I mean, you guys should have enough in the bank to pay off the loan, but if there was another owner taking over, your recovery back to the Premier League might be somewhat delayed unless the guy is billionaire loaded.

It would also help if said owners actually put a good deal of value on the fans they already have by not ticking them off with name changes and changing certain traditions. He claims fans are afraid of change... fans are only afraid if it's change for change's sake. I'm sure all the fans would get on board if the change really is for the better. Even if the owner has ambitions for their overseas fanbase, they must remember that Hull City represents Hull first and foremost, that is the roots and identity of the club.




Hmm, I've got some good examples of bad ownership, and good ownership. Perhaps I should save my Bournemouth story once they get promoted. I feel like talking about Coventry City's past woes. It's just amazing how badly they have fallen these days (well, signs of improement are coming now they got the Ricoh, but gee whiz...)

 

[Tulip]

Everyone knows Levy's faults, but I often caution Spurs fans against thinking that the grass is greener.

We aren't a top four clubs by rights, and we'd need an incredibly generous owner to turn us into one.

I think Levy's done a good job, and now that the new stadium is finally off the ground we should see progress whether its him or someone else.

Right now, our task is to stay in the top seven and not fall off a cliff.

 

[SM]

West Ham have announced they're slashing season tickets once the new TV deal comes in. That's the way to do it.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

Everyone knows Levy's faults, but I often caution Spurs fans against thinking that the grass is greener.

We aren't a top four clubs by rights, and we'd need an incredibly generous owner to turn us into one.

I think Levy's done a good job, and now that the new stadium is finally off the ground we should see progress whether its him or someone else.

Right now, our task is to stay in the top seven and not fall off a cliff.

Gladly trade you Ashley for Levy Tulip - He's rumoured to be a Spurs fan too.

I think Levy's done a pretty solid job for Spurs - has got a bit of a reputation as being a tough negotiator (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but I think overall, most would argue he's done mostly good in his time and seen the club progress under his watch.

Comparing Spurs to us, I would have had both clubs around the same mark back in 2007 (when Ashley came in) - Spurs maybe slightly ahead. Since then, Spurs would have had a huge jump in profile and stature (playing in the CL and being around the top 4 mark for a good few seasons. Plus having a number of high profile players in that time as well). I'm sure if I looked up commercial and match day revenue figures, there would be a big improvement in that time too. Seem to recall Spurs announcing a record sponsorship deal not long ago (either with AIA or possibly HP even going back a few years?).

Spurs IIRC are in the top 15 wealthiest clubs in the world which is quite impressive too given they don't have a gulf state or Russian billionaire forking the bill (granted PL TV money is a big help) nor can they boast regular titles or silverware like a lot of the other elite European clubs who probably fill out the top 10-15.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

West Ham have announced they're slashing season tickets once the new TV deal comes in. That's the way to do it.

They have their critics (mostly due to how they made their fortune) but Gold and Sullivan are good owners IMO. 2 guys who love their club and put the money into it despite not really making anything in return (believe they might not even recoup the money they've invested unless they sell for a lot more than they bought it for initially).

They are also moving into the Olympic Stadium next season I believe which will enable them to potentially grow their attendance numbers too (certainly lowering prices is a good way to encourage more season ticket sales).

 

[jd2010]

Gladly trade you Ashley for Levy Tulip - He's rumoured to be a Spurs fan too.

I think Levy's done a pretty solid job for Spurs - has got a bit of a reputation as being a tough negotiator (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but I think overall, most would argue he's done mostly good in his time and seen the club progress under his watch.

Comparing Spurs to us, I would have had both clubs around the same mark back in 2007 (when Ashley came in) - Spurs maybe slightly ahead. Since then, Spurs would have had a huge jump in profile and stature (playing in the CL and being around the top 4 mark for a good few seasons. Plus having a number of high profile players in that time as well). I'm sure if I looked up commercial and match day revenue figures, there would be a big improvement in that time too. Seem to recall Spurs announcing a record sponsorship deal not long ago (either with AIA or possibly HP even going back a few years?).

Spurs IIRC are in the top 15 wealthiest clubs in the world which is quite impressive too given they don't have a gulf state or Russian billionaire forking the bill (granted PL TV money is a big help) nor can they boast regular titles or silverware like a lot of the other elite European clubs who probably fill out the top 10-15.

We were definitely behind you guys when Levy/ENIC took over us in the early 2000's. We were a London equivalent of a Sunderland/Aston Villa really. Too good to go down but occasionally flirt with relegation but not good enough to qualify for Europe. They've no doubt turned us around but I think we've hit our limit with Levy/ENIC and I think they know that too. We're a well run business with league record profits in the last financial year but this has caused a drop in quality on the pitch.

They're just waiting until the new stadium is complete & by then the new TV revenue deal will be in place and they'll be listening to some very large offers for a takeover. ENIC are an investment company and that's all we are to them. They've been patient and made little returns as they've gone so far but their big cash day will come once they sell to the US or Arab countries.

 

[DBAH0]

They have their critics (mostly due to how they made their fortune) but Gold and Sullivan are good owners IMO. 2 guys who love their club and put the money into it despite not really making anything in return (believe they might not even recoup the money they've invested unless they sell for a lot more than they bought it for initially).

They are also moving into the Olympic Stadium next season I believe which will enable them to potentially grow their attendance numbers too (certainly lowering prices is a good way to encourage more season ticket sales).

Compared to the Icelandic Billionaires we had, Gold and Sullivan have really done a very good job, and really are probably the best owners West Ham's ever had. It's quite amusing that I think of saying that now, because I remember an old Birmingham supporter on these forums who would give it to em every chance he got for how they left the club and ran it.

Really, we could be down at the same level as a Sheffield Wednesday / Wolves etc. when we got relegated, if we didn't have the right people in place in the right areas.

Off-field, obviously there's the Olympic Stadium, Ticket Prices will be going down when we move in there, and they re-invest the profits back into the club in terms of transfers. Even when Alpari went bust in January, we were able to then sign our biggest sponsorship deal in the club's history straight after (3.5 years for $20M quid I think).

That said, a lot of eyes will be on them this off-season in terms of what they do with the Manager.

Sullivan is also one of the most hands on owners when it comes to transfers, and he himself said as much in interviews this season. And all of the acquisitions we made in the off-season (Sahko, Cresswell, Valencia etc.), that was pretty much all down to Sullivan.

 

[Fryer Tuck]

Everyone knows Levy's faults, but I often caution Spurs fans against thinking that the grass is greener.

We aren't a top four clubs by rights, and we'd need an incredibly generous owner to turn us into one.

I think Levy's done a good job, and now that the new stadium is finally off the ground we should see progress whether its him or someone else.

Right now, our task is to stay in the top seven and not fall off a cliff.

We were definitely behind you guys when Levy/ENIC took over us in the early 2000's. We were a London equivalent of a Sunderland/Aston Villa really. Too good to go down but occasionally flirt with relegation but not good enough to qualify for Europe. They've no doubt turned us around but I think we've hit our limit with Levy/ENIC and I think they know that too. We're a well run business with league record profits in the last financial year but this has caused a drop in quality on the pitch.

They're just waiting until the new stadium is complete & by then the new TV revenue deal will be in place and they'll be listening to some very large offers for a takeover. ENIC are an investment company and that's all we are to them. They've been patient and made little returns as they've gone so far but their big cash day will come once they sell to the US or Arab countries.

Now this an interesting thought. I think we can agree that as individuals, you have a couple of the wealthiest owners in the Premier League, yet there seems to be that wall were you guys can’t seem to break that top 3 (or beat Arsenal). I don’t think it helps that while Tottenham is capable of some great results, they do pull results that are just mind-bogglingly bad. Some excellent stuff has come out of Tottenham, without question, but like Liverpool, there’s just that lack of extra steel (and I would hazard to say it's mental mostly) that should turn Tottenham into a proper CL fighter. As a club, I think Tottenham’s underachieved.


The money is there, (Top 15 richest club, billionaire owners) but as noted, your owners do view the club more as a business investment as opposed to an actual football club. Money money, all around, but not a cent to spend. Let’s be honest, not since 1991 has the owners really been all about the club (Surprise surprise, another wealthy businessman owning Tottenham, only this one is more similar to Ashley, Sir Alan Sugar.) I think it should also be noted that while Tottenham is a Top 15 club in terms of wealth, their wealth is on the wane, and they have been overtaken by Man City (NUFC Tiger's right, in 2007, Tottenham and Newcastle had a similar net worth).


You are correct, the grass isn’t always greener when it comes to an owner swap. Who’s to say that you won’t get another Alan Sugar, who may be loaded, but won’t give as much? What Tottenham need is someone that is willing to treat them like a football club and will give them the opportunity to make a proper impact, because as things currently stand, it’s not looking good.


The major, major problem is Tottenham’s lack of success. Your last top tier title in 1961, and unlike Liverpool, there’s no pedigree of success (2 top tier titles, no FA cup since 1991). You also have the major problem of Arsenal, which is the Man United to your Man City. Even with their lack of success, you still haven’t finished above them, and haven’t fared too much better in trophies since that 2004 perfect season (Just one league cup). It seems to be a big mental block. This leads to players getting frustrated, wanting better things: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/21/hugo-lloris-tottenham-champions-league When Tottenham loses, there’s always something disappointing about the way they do lose. You feel that perhaps with just the right results, those Europa appearances become Champions League appearances, you finish above Arsenal and make a claim as the best team in North London. Suddenly, the current crop want to stay at the club, more players hope to join the Spurs, there is more opportunity to land quality players (whether you land them is another story, as we have heard the stories about Levy), and suddenly things look rosier. The value of the club increases just with a few better results.


Part of why Tottenham are… well, just there, is a mix of your owners not really allowing Tottenham reach their full potential (Finishing in 4th, the Bale sale, a chance to really make the most of the high), and just the lack of results at critical times. A chance to take up the sword at your peak, and open the door to further opportunities.

The big question now is, where will you finish this season? Will you be able to maintain your playing list? Would you be able to add some class to it? What is the mindset of the owners now? Would they try to keep up the level? Or will they try to sell the club on before the value drops? It's not a good situation to be in when your owner doesn't have your best interest at heart.

 

[moomba]

I think Levy was good getting Spurs to where they were. Sometimes more interested in making the perfect deal than doing whats good for the club but overall has done a decent job.

I don't think he is willing to take the next step though. Maybe he's hoarding a few pennies for the stadium but I think Spurs had a real opportunity to push on a few years back but he sat on his hands and I think they've barely spent a penny since (nett).

 

[jd2010]

Levy and ENIC have hit their ceiling. Very rarely will the side with the 6th largest wage bill crack the top 4. For all his stupid football decisions Levy is a fantastic businessman and that is why ENIC have him in charge of their investment. Since their arrival we've:
- achieved top 4 twice,
- broke the world record for a player sale,
- built a state of the art new youth & training facility,
- about to complete a player's lodge at the training facility (to be used by us and visiting overseas teams playing in London)
- will move in to a 56,000 seat stadium.
- all while increasing our profits over time

This will only increase ENIC's return on investment once we are sold (and get Levy a healthy bonus I'm sure). I don't think ENIC's goal is for us to be a top 4 side at all. They've done nothing to show that's their aim (constantly selling players & sacking managers). The aim is to keep us close enough and turning a profit until a new buyer comes in with a massive amount in mind. A US company enquired about buying us late last year but they were priced out. At that point the new stadium wasn't a certainty so the asking price wouldn't have been worth it for them. Until Levy & ENIC are gone top 4 achievements should be a bonus rather than the expectation.