Teams Philadelphia Eagles - The Gold Standard

[trikster]

Sigh.


Maybe I should have left it until tomorrow to return to the board.

To think we passed on Mims and Baun too.

After the drafting a QB I waiting until sunday night to look

 

[trikster]

So aside from that round 2 pick I think it was a solid draft without being spectacular. There seems to be plenty of value in the day 3 picks so as always you hope a couple of them come through.

Their offence plan seems to be :
Ertz/Goddert as your meat and potatoes accumulators
Sanders/Scott to run and both can catch well out of the backfield
Now lets copy KC (and address an obvious issue) by adding Reagor and Hightower
Then lets copy NO by drafting Hurts to play the Taysom Hill role

If the above works and Dillard can hold down left tackle and Kelce returns, F me this offence will be insanse fun each week.

* Having said that drafting Hurts was a waste of a pick

 

[Southerntakeover]

Well, logic says if you take a QB in the second round you consider him more than just a backup. I wouldn't move Wentz, but I believe there is much more to this than what we are just hearing, Philly wanting to become the QB factory of the universe.

Logic absolutely says you don't draft him. But that's the criticism- that it's illogical to have done this.

It's one thing to search for rationality amongst irrational behaviour, it's another to use it try to suggest that something even more irrational must therefore be rational.

The most likely thing is that they simply had the highest grade on him, and decided that the value was too high to pass up.

 

[sblack]

Trading Wentz would cost 43m in dead cap. It's not even far fetched. It's downright ****ing stupid to even think that

 

[rumply]

says it all

Every excuse the Eagles have given for drafting Jalen Hurts is stupid

The Eagles are trying every excuse they can think of to justify using their 2nd round pick on a quarterback. They’re all stupid.

First let’s take a look at how unusual this situation is. Over the past 20 years, 21 QBs have been drafted in the 2nd round. Teams that have drafted them have usually fit one of two profiles: they have a starter in their mid to late 30s, or their QB depth chart is awful. There’s a third category of drafting an insurance policy behind a QB in his early 30s with injury concerns, but 75% of the time that starting QB was the same person. Nearly a third of the time, the team has had a new coach putting his own mark on the team.

2nd Round QBs 2000-2019

Year	QB	Team	QB#	Other QB(s)	Category	New coach?	Notes
2019	Drew Lock	DEN	4th	34 year old Joe Flacco	Aging vet	Yes
2017	DeShone Kizer	CLE	4th	Kevin Hogan and Cody Kessler	Bad starter	No	3 QBs started the year before
2016	Christian Hackenberg	NYJ	4th	34 year old Ryan Fitzpatrick	Aging vet	No
2014	Derek Carr	OAK	4th	33 year old Matt Schaub	Aging vet	No	3 QBs started the year before
2014	Jimmy Garoppolo	NE	5th	37 year old Tom Brady	Aging vet	No
2013	Geno Smith	NYJ	2nd	35 year old David Garrard, Matt Sims	Everything	No	Garrard retired a month later
2012	Brock Osweiler	DEN	5th	36 year old Peyton Manning	Aging vet	No	Manning had missed previous season
2011	Andy Dalton	CIN	5th	Bruce Gradkowski	Bad starter	No	Previous seasons's starter retired in offseason
2011	Colin Kaepernick	SF	6th	Alex Smith	Bad starter	Yes	Smith's career passer rating was 76.4
2010	Jimmy Clausen	CAR	3rd	Matt Moore	Bad starter	No	Previous season's starter was cut
2009	Pat White	MIA	4th	33 year old Chad Pennington	Insurance	No	Drafted as a wildcat QB
2008	Brian Brohm	GB	3rd	Aaron Rodgers	Insurance	No	Rodgers had yet to start a game
2008	Chad Henne	MIA	4th	32 year old Chad Pennington	Insurance	Yes	Pennington had missed 8 games in 2007
2007	Kevin Kolb	PHI	3rd	31 year old Donovan McNabb	Insurance	No	McNabb missed 13 games previous two seasons
2007	John Beck	MIA	4th	37 year old Trent Green	Aging vet	Yes	3 QBs started the year before
2007	Drew Stanton	DET	5th	35 year old Jon Kitna	Aging vet	No
2006	Kellen Clemens	NYJ	4th	Chad Pennington	Insurance	Yes	Pennington had never started 16 games
2006	Tarvaris Jackson	MIN	5th	38 year old Brad Johnson	Aging vet	Yes	Previous season's starter was traded
2001	Drew Brees	SD	2nd	39 year old Doug Flutie	Aging vet	No	3 QBs started the year before
2001	Quincy Carter	DAL	3rd	Ryan Leaf, Clint Stoerner	Bad starter	No	Previous seasons's starter retired in offseason
2001	Marques Tuiasosopo	OAK	4th	36 year old Rich Gannon	Aging vet	No

The Eagles fit none of these profiles. The only situations that are remotely close here are the 2007 Eagles and 2008 Packers, but those comparisons are thin. Both were controversial picks, but you could at least sort of see where they were coming from.

McNabb had missed 6 and 7 games in each of the previous two seasons, and was coming off an ACL tear. There was deserved controversy when Kolb was selected, but a 31 year old coming off a major injury is a reason to consider drafting a backup.

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Rodgers was handed the starting job due to Brett Favre finally leaving, but he had just 59 career attempts. This pick was also controversial and led to Packers GM Ted Thompson having to immediately say that they are fully confident in Rodgers, just like the Eagles did with Wentz. With an unknown as your starter, you can understand the idea of adding an insurance policy. Green Bay then doubled up and took Matt Flynn in the 7th round. It’s worth pointing out that Mike McCarthy, Rodgers’ head coach in 2008 and the 49ers offensive coordinator in 2005, was a reason why the 49ers passed on Rodgers in the 2005 draft.

Value Pick
What is good value for a 2nd round pick? What is good value for a backup quarterback? Your mileage may vary on the exact answers, but there are four outcomes to this selection.

The first is that Jalen Hurts succeeds Carson Wentz as the starting QB, and is good. If that’s the case the Eagles will look kind of brilliant, but also like morons for giving 26 year old Carson Wentz a contract extension and then turning on him a year later. It is not a scenario that fills you with confidence about the organization. This would be great value, but for all the wrong reasons.

The second is that the Eagles get quality backup play of Hurts but without Wentz suffering serious injury, then flip Hurts for draft capital/players. We’ll come back to this.

The third is that Hurts plays enough and well enough for a team to want him, but not enough for a team to trade for him. We’ve seen this before with Tyrod Taylor, but he was a 6th round pick and gave the Ravens no on field value, he had 63 touches in four years. For a 6th rounder that’s great value, for a 2nd not so much. In this scenario the Eagles would get at best a 3rd round comp pick in 2024. While not the worst outcome, as having a quality backup and getting a 3rd round comp pick are both valuable, having your 2nd round pick walk in free agency would be embarrassing.

The fourth is that Jalen Hurts stinks and he is either released or walks in free agency and doesn’t register as a comp pick, and the Eagles get nothing. The worst possible outcome, and considering the bust rate of quarterbacks, also the most likely.

So let’s assume a the second option, which is a best case scenario: nothing serious goes wrong with Carson Wentz, but Hurts has trade value in two or three years. It is unrealistic to expect the Eagles acquire a better pick than they gave up.

Over the past 10 years, quarterbacks have been traded for draft capital 42 times. 32 times they were traded for a 4th round pick or later.

QB For Draft Pick Trades 2010-2020

Year	QB	Pick(s) Received	Originally Acquired	Note
2020	Nick Foles	4th	FA
2020	Kyle Allen	5th	UDFA
2019	Ryan Tannehill	4th & 7th	1st	Also sent a 6th
2019	Case Keenum	6th & 7th	FA
2019	Josh Rosen	2nd & 5th	1st
2019	Josh Dobbs	5th	4th
2019	Joe Flacco	4th	1st
2018	Alex Smith	3rd	2nd	Also recieved Kendall Fuller
2018	Teddy Bridgewater	3rd	FA	Also sent a 6th
2018	Trevor Siemian	5th	7th	Also sent a 7th
2018	DeShone Kizer	4th & 5th	2nd	Also sent a 4th & 5th, received Damarious Randall
2018	AJ McCarron	5th	5th
2018	Brett Hundley	6th	5th
2018	Kevin Hogan	6th	5th	Also sent a 6th
2018	Cody Kessler	7th	3rd
2017	Jimmy Garoppolo	2nd	2nd	In season
2017	Tyrod Taylor	3rd	FA
2017	Brock Osweiler	4th	FA	Also sent a 2nd and 6th
2017	Cardale Jones	7th	4th
2016	Sam Bradford	1st, 4th	2nd & 4th	In season
2016	Matt Cassel	5th	FA	Also sent a 7th
2015	Sam Bradford	2nd & 4th	1st	Also sent a 5th, received Nick Foles
2015	Nick Foles	5th	3rd	Also sent a 2nd & 4th, received Sam Bradford
2015	Ryan Fitzpatrick	6th	FA
2015	Case Keenum	7th	FA
2015	Matt Cassel	6th & 7th	FA
2015	Matt Barkley	7th	4th
2014	Carson Palmer	6th & 7th	1st & 2nd	Also sent a 7th
2014	Ryan Mallet	7th	3rd
2014	Matt Schaub	6th	Two 2nds, swap of 1sts
2014	Blaine Gabbert	6th	1st
2014	Terrelle Pryor	7th	3rd
2013	Alex Smith	2nd	1st
2013	Matt Flynn	5th	FA
2013	Colt McCoy	5th & 7th	3rd	Also sent a 6th
2012	Tarvaris Jackson	7th	FA
2012	Tim Tebow	4th & 6th	1st	Also sent a 7th
2012	Brady Quinn	6th	1st	Also recieved Peyton Hillis
2012	Drew Stanton	6th	FA	Also sent a 7th
2011	Carson Palmer	1st & 2nd	1st	In season
2011	Kevin Kolb	2nd	2nd	Also recieved Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
2011	Donovan McNabb	6th	2nd & 4th

Let’s focus on the ten that were dealt for at least a 3rd round pick. Seven of the ten trades were for experienced QBs: Carson Palmer, Alex Smith twice, Sam Bradford twice, Teddy Bridgewater, and Tyrod Taylor. All were starters for at least two years.

In just three of 42 trades over the past decade was a QB with fewer than two years of starting experience traded for better than a 4th round pick: Josh Rosen, Jimmy Garoppolo, and Kevin Kolb. Rosen was traded for less value than the pick he was taken for. Garoppolo and Kolb were traded for a pick in the same round they were drafted in, though the Eagles also received DRC for Kolb.

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So the best case scenario that doesn’t involve Carson Wentz missing significant time is the Eagles getting a high 2nd round pick, or a later 2nd round and a starter in three or four years. Is that the best use of the 53rd overall pick? Was that the best use of the 53rd overall pick for the 2020 Eagles? Is that reward worth the risk for this team?

The QB Factory
Howie Roseman was deservedly mocked for his “QB factory” comment. It’s the new “gold standard” line that should haunt them for years. This is of course absurd, as the Eagles under Doug Pederson have truly developed one QB: Carson Wentz. Nick Foles was a finished product that they fixed up and they deserve credit for both of those. But Chase Daniel, McLeod-Bethel Thompson, Matt McGloin, Aaron Murray, Joe Callahan, Christian Hackenberg, Louis Perez, Cody Kessler and Clayton Thorson have come and gone for nothing, and it is hard to see them getting anything for Nate Sudfeld.

If you want to add a quality backup QB with the hope of getting draft capital out of him, you don’t have to use draft capital to get him. The Eagles should know this since it’s what they did with Nick Foles. The Eagles gave up nothing nor canceled out a comp pick for signing Foles, then gained a 3rd round comp pick for him. They got the benefit of having a veteran QB rather than a developmental one, got good play out of him (well, great play out of him, but let’s not raise the bar too high), and they got a valuable pick in return. That’s manufacturing, or more accurately refurbishing. There are several QBs available in free agency right now that would be quality backups. (You will see this material again.) You’d have a much higher floor of play if Wentz were to miss time, and potentially essentially buy draft picks.

Cheap contract to spend elsewhere
It’s true that the Eagles save cap space by going with a rookie QB. But they haven’t operated this way for most of the Doug Pederson era, they paid high salaries to their backups while Carson Wentz was on his cheap rookie contract. Chase Daniel got $12M for one year of work, they ate $11M of Sam Bradford’s contract, and paid Nick Foles $15M for two years. Josh McCown’s $2M was actually a fair market value. Now that Wentz is highly paid they apparently want to save money on his backups to invest elsewhere. That would be fine but they haven’t really invested that money. The addition of Marquise Goodwin will count for $4M in 2020, but it is next to impossible to see them keeping him in 2021 when he’s scheduled to make $7M. He is the only veteran they have acquired on offense.

Great Teammate
In a not so subtle shot at the anonymous sources who have said mean things about Carson Wentz—who they are trying to protect by using a 2nd rounder on his backup and creating a media focal point—the Eagles went out of their way to talk about what a great guy Jalen Hurts is. I’m sure he is. I have no ill will towards Hurts, this isn’t about him as a person or player. I’m glad the Eagles drafted a high character guy instead of someone who might assault a cabana boy. It feels nice to root for good guys. But “we wanted to get him a friend” is something you say about adopting another pet, not drafting a player.

COVID-19
This one is just pathetic. It’s sad really. In an incredible display of not having a bullshit filter, Adam Schefter actually went on national TV and said this:

Now in this day and age, I’ve had teams tell me it’s more important than ever to have a backup quarterback in this pandemic. We’re going to be playing next year, coronavirus is out there, COVID-19, what if your quarterback gets the virus? It’s an interesting situation here. I think there are more problems than ever before. And so I think teams are looking up to sure up the most important position in the sport. And that’s why the Eagles did it.

“What if your quarterback gets the virus?” What if your quarterback gets the virus.

I can not imagine the stupidity it takes to come up with a scenario in your galaxy brain that Carson Wentz gets Coronavirus but nobody else on the team does. The entire reason you can’t eat in a restaurant right now is that simply being in a room while having the virus puts everyone in the room at high risk of contracting the virus. If Carson Wentz has it then there’s a really good chance that Jalen Hurts has it too. That QB room ain’t in open air.

And it ignores that the NBA came to a screeching halt when one player tested positive, and then we found out that several players he either played with or against also got it. The NFL would have to be Brian Kemp level of tone deaf to keep playing if this happened, and the NFLPA would have to be injecting bleach into their bodies level of dumb to allow it to happen. We’re not even confident that there will be a season, or when it will start.

Speaking of Coronavirus, I wrote this in a piece about why the Eagles would be wasting a day three pick on a QB, but it applies to a second rounder as well:

The COVID-19 pandemic adds another layer to this. This is not an ideal offseason to draft a developmental QB. These QBs need hands on coaching, a ton of practice reps, hours and hours of film study with coaches, and other things that aren’t going to happen this summer. We can not even be sure at this time when the season will begin. It’s a bad environment to bring a late round QB into.

If you’re truly weighing how the pandemic will or could affect your QB situation, wouldn’t you be better off signing a guy with experience to take over if necessary?

Taysom Hill
If not for Adam Schefter’s pandemic concerns, this would be the most pathetic reason. Taysom Hill was an undrafted free agent who wasn’t even originally signed by the Saints, he started with the Packers so the Saints were able to let another team spend time and effort figuring out if Hill was worth even a practice squad roster spot. The Saints stashed him on the roster for a year before using him as a utility player of questionable value. Every time he throws the ball is a time when Drew freaking Brees doesn’t. Because of that they’ve only let him throw 13 times, he has a 46.6 passer rating. Last season he averaged 15 snaps a game, and his playing time decreased when Brees was injured, he played 17 snaps per game when Brees was healthy, 12 per game when he was hurt. The guy at the top of Taysom Hill’s positional depth chart missed nearly six games and he ended the season 17th in offensive snaps. The Saints third string center played more than Taysom Hill did. Hill was the Saints #3 QB last season and the Saints are so confident in his abilities as a backup quarterback that they just signed Jameis Winston to be the #2. Hey look at that, a team trying to win a Super Bowl and with an injury concern at QB signed a veteran to be the backup. Apparently that’s an option.

These excuses that the Eagles have either peddled out themselves or got water carrying media members to repeat aren’t just weak, they’re insultingly stupid.

But it's done & thankfully there's a few other additions to get a bit excited about.

 

[rumply]

another QB added to the ranks under the guise of a wideout...



has been working out with McNabb, dunno how that'll help him as a receiver but whatever.

 

[rumply]

 

[Exe Gesis]

I really like Khalil Tate, has high upside as a QB if properly developed.

 

[Dirty Bird]

That is so stupid.

You spend a second round pick on someone for a few little trick plays here and there, rather than someone who can actually contribute to a position of need as a low salary starter for years?

Our front office doesnt just drink its own bath water right now, when its time to piss it out they bottle it and drink it again later. Have any of our 'outsmarting the league' picks ever actually worked out ever?

Just pick football players to play.

Isn’t this what you wanted with Michael Vick and Vince Young all those years ago?

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Well, logic says if you take a QB in the second round you consider him more than just a backup. I wouldn't move Wentz, but I believe there is much more to this than what we are just hearing, Philly wanting to become the QB factory of the universe.

Ahhh yes, "the QB Factory".
What complete, utter garbage that line was from Howie.

As noted in the article quoted above:

"Chase Daniel, McLeod-Bethel Thompson, Matt McGloin, Aaron Murray, Joe Callahan, Christian Hackenberg, Louis Perez, Cody Kessler and Clayton Thorson have come and gone for nothing, and it is hard to see them getting anything for Nate Sudfeld."​

I would add Kevin Kolb (2nd rounder), Mike Kafka (4th rounder) and Matt Barkley (4th rounder) to that list, to say nothing of the factory of free agency awesomeness that includes Sam Bradford, Vince Young, Mark Sanchez and Trent Edwards. If you want to be cruel and include the Chupa Chup Kelly years, that list expands to include Tim freakin' Tebow.

Quite the QB production line.
Even my neighbour's second cousin's 69 year old great uncle gets better production and reliability out of his 1952 vintage Lada factory in the dark cold Siberian tundra.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Eagles GM Howie Roseman confirmed the team wants to feature more of a down-field passing attack in 2020.
"We want to throw the ball down the field," Roseman said matter of factly. "We don’t want to be station-to-station football — that’s not what coach (Doug) Pederson wants.” The Eagles have been hunting for more of a down-field element for several years but keep getting sidelined by injuries, including DeSean Jackson's in 2019. D-Jax is returning for 2020, but Roseman took matters into his own hands during the draft, selecting three speed-demon wideouts, highlighted by first-rounder Jalen Reagor. After years of an efficiency-at-all-costs mindset, NFL offenses are slowly beginning to open up again. Coming off a white-hot finish with an enfeebled supporting cast, Carson Wentz will be a highly-intriguing re-draft option this season.
SOURCE: Ian Rapoport on Twitter
Apr 28, 2020, 1:23 PM ET

 

[rumply]

Sounds like JP will be back as starting LT, doesn't say much for Dillard if so.

 

[trikster]

Sounds like JP will be back as starting LT, doesn't say much for Dillard if so.

back maybe (hopefully), but no guarantee he will start, or at least start the whole season. He thought someone else would pay him another 6mil to be a starter, the eagles played the FA game and possibly won.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Speaks very poorly of our drafting (again) if that happens.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Carson Wentz confirmed he suffered a concussion in the team's Wild Card playoff loss to the Seahawks.
Wentz exited the game following a hit by Jadeveon Clowney after just four passing attempts, with Josh McCown ultimately leading Philadelphia to a 17-9 defeat. "It was scary stuff," Wentz said of the concussion-like symptoms. "You only get one of these brains and you have to protect it." Wentz has not finished the season healthy in each of the last three years. Much of the Eagles' offseason has been geared towards helping their quarterback - drafting two speed receivers in Jalen Reagor and John Hightower, and trading for another in Marquise Goodwin. And to protect their side, GM Howie Roseman spent a second-round pick on backup quarterback Jalen Hurts.
SOURCE: Mike Garafolo on Twitter
May 4, 2020, 1:28 PM ET

 

[sblack]

Week 1 - at Washington Redskins (Sept. 13, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

Week 2 - vs. Los Angeles Rams (Sept. 20, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

Week 3 - vs. Cincinnati Bengals (Sept. 27, 1:00 PM ET, CBS)

Week 4 - at San Francisco 49ers (Oct. 4, 8:20 PM ET, NBC) Sunday Night Football

Week 5 - at Pittsburgh Steelers (Oct. 11, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

Week 6 - vs. Baltimore Ravens (Oct. 18, 1:00 PM ET, CBS)

Week 7 - vs. New York Giants (Oct. 22, 8:20 PM ET, FOX/NFL Network/Amazon) Thursday Night Football

Week 8 - vs. Dallas Cowboys (Nov. 1, 8:20 PM ET, NBC) Sunday Night Football

Week 9 - BYE

Week 10 - at New York Giants (Nov. 15, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

Week 11 - at Cleveland Browns (Nov. 22, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

Week 12 - vs. Seattle Seahawks (Nov. 30, 8:15 PM ET, ESPN) Monday Night Football

Week 13 - at Green Bay Packers (Dec. 6, 4:25 PM ET, CBS)

Week 14 - vs. New Orleans Saints (Dec. 13, 4:25 PM ET, FOX)

Week 15 - at Arizona Cardinals (Dec. 20, 4:05 PM ET, FOX)

Week 16 - at Dallas Cowboys (Dec. 27, 4:25 PM ET, FOX)

Week 17 - vs. Washington Redskins (Jan. 3, 1:00 PM ET, FOX)

 

[rumply]

Some tasty match-ups there. Seahawks, Pack, Saints over 3 weeks will be a good test at that time of the season & I'm sure Peyton will get a nice warm welcome.

 

[trikster]

I like the opening, should start 3-0 and get things sorted ready for the harder games.

 

[rumply]

Birds put in bid for Clowney apparently, guess that's one way to keep him away from Wentz.

 

[trikster]

Birds put in bid for Clowney apparently, guess that's one way to keep him away from Wentz.

not sure it's the most pressing need but the birds certainly do like stocking the D-line as much as possible. Certainly protects the (complete lack of) linebackers

 

[rumply]

Brandon Brooks tears Achilles, out for season, sources say

Months away from the start of the 2020 season and the Eagles have already been dealt a devastating blow. Eagles right guard Brandon Brooks on Monday tore his left Achilles tendon while working out at the NovaCare Complex, according to sources. He will miss the entire 2020 season. I’m told...

www.nbcsports.com

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Brandon Brooks tears Achilles, out for season, sources say

Months away from the start of the 2020 season and the Eagles have already been dealt a devastating blow. Eagles right guard Brandon Brooks on Monday tore his left Achilles tendon while working out at the NovaCare Complex, according to sources. He will miss the entire 2020 season. I’m told...

www.nbcsports.com

Dammit. Wentz under even more pressure now, unless we can get Peters back?

 

[rumply]

Dammit. Wentz under even more pressure now, unless we can get Peters back?

Peters back hopefully plus a few options to help fill the Brooks hole already on the roster.

6 internal guard options for the Eagles following Brandon Brooks’ injury

Win from within?

www.bleedinggreennation.com

or FA's

7 free agent guard options for the Eagles following Brandon Brooks’ injury

Philly might be able to find outside help.

www.bleedinggreennation.com

 

[rumply]

had to cheer myself up

 

[drd23]