Analysis Pies made mistakes.

[rose jam]

Buckley has installed the Leading Teams philosophy in an attempt to change this culture. Leading Teams has been a successful strategy at Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn so I am reluctant to criticise it. .

The leading teams thing is interesting, because all they essentially are doing is trying to get the team to overcome the 5 reasons teams fail; trust, conflict, commitment, accountability, and results.
Now the issue I would want to know with their model is how they apply it. 40 people is too big to have a healthy team, a football team is a really a collection of sub teams. So what I would hope they are doing is putting all their energy into the leadership team, and fostering the right behaviours there. From there the leadership team should be able to direct the sub teams (forwards, back, mids, etc).
And since Shaw and Thomas are no longer at the club, I'd say it's working just fine.

 

[jmac70]

The leading teams thing is interesting, because all they essentially are doing is trying to get the team to overcome the 5 reasons teams fail; trust, conflict, commitment, accountability, and results.
Now the issue I would want to know with their model is how they apply it. 40 people is too big to have a healthy team, a football team is a really a collection of sub teams. So what I would hope they are doing is putting all their energy into the leadership team, and fostering the right behaviours there. From there the leadership team should be able to direct the sub teams (forwards, back, mids, etc).
And since Shaw and Thomas are no longer at the club, I'd say it's working just fine.

I think you hit the nail on the head there rose jam. It is a big transition for the players to make but driven by Pendlebury we should start to see some positive results next season.

 

[Starcevich90]

I think he is saying that you have not analysed why our position on the ladder had dropped. Don't you think that's important?

Analysed or made excuses for? What goes into the record books at the end of each year? The injury ladder? The bad luck table? The how the player exodus is not my fault affidavit?

Sorry but Buckley is ultimately judged on where the team finishes, it's brutal I know but it's reality. He would tell you the same thing.

I'm not calling for his head BTW, but there would want to be an upward curve sometime soonish.

 

[jmac70]

Analysed or made excuses for? What goes into the record books at the end of each year? The injury ladder? The bad luck table? The how the player exodus is not my fault affidavit?

Sorry but Buckley is ultimately judged on where the team finishes, it's brutal I know but it's reality. He would tell you the same thing.

I'm not calling for his head BTW, but there would want to be an upward curve sometime soonish.

There will be improvement, just need to be a little patient with the development of the list.

 

[Starcevich90]

There will be improvement, just need to be a little patient with the development of the list.

It just kind of irks me how people think this development/progression is a given. It's not, as we've seen with Scharenberg and Freeman.

People have been arguing Broomhead is a massive upgrade on Wellingham. Sorry but that's not based in fact.

Broomhead is a promising type who has shown flashes but is nowhere near established at AFL level. With us (and that's all we should be judging by) Wellingham was a seasoned finals player, a vital cog in an elite midfield group who could run with Judd, rack up 35 touches or end up booting two goals in a Grand Final.

Broomhead has years to go before getting anywhere near that level, so the whole Broomhead > Wellingham thing is just laughable in its ignorance.

And that's only one example of what I'm talking about.

 

[jmac70]

It just kind of irks me how people think this development/progression is a given. It's not, as we've seen with Scharenberg and Freeman.

People have been arguing Broomhead is a massive upgrade on Wellingham. Sorry but that's not based in fact.

Broomhead is a promising type who has shown flashes but is nowhere near established at AFL level. With us (and that's all we should be judging by) Wellingham was a seasoned finals player, a vital cog in an elite midfield group who could run with Judd, rack up 35 touches or end up booting two goals in a Grand Final.

Broomhead has years to go before getting anywhere near that level, so the whole Broomhead > Wellingham thing is just laughable in its ignorance.

And that's only one example of what I'm talking about.

There are no guarantees. Never have been. Your just going to have faith I'm afraid.

 

[Starcevich90]

There are no guarantees. Never have been. Your just going to have faith I'm afraid.

Exactly right - no guarantees. Which is why we can only really judge on results. The rest is just what we hope will happen.

 

[Robroy22]

Exactly right - no guarantees. Which is why we can only really judge on results. The rest is just what we hope will happen.

So....of the 17 sides that FAIL each year, I'm assuming that the bottom sides FAIL worse than the top sides?

 

[good4footy]

It just kind of irks me how people think this development/progression is a given. It's not, as we've seen with Scharenberg and Freeman.

People have been arguing Broomhead is a massive upgrade on Wellingham. Sorry but that's not based in fact.

Broomhead is a promising type who has shown flashes but is nowhere near established at AFL level. With us (and that's all we should be judging by) Wellingham was a seasoned finals player, a vital cog in an elite midfield group who could run with Judd, rack up 35 touches or end up booting two goals in a Grand Final.

Broomhead has years to go before getting anywhere near that level, so the whole Broomhead > Wellingham thing is just laughable in its ignorance.

And that's only one example of what I'm talking about.

Sharrod averages 18 possessions per game and even in 2010 he only averaged 19.5 - his best year. There would not be one club in the comp that wouldn't back Broomhead to be better than that as it stands.

Add the fact that if he was batter up in a baseball game he would be nervous about one more swing and a miss - and we have done well to get pick 17 for him which became Broomhead.

There is not player we have let go that the club wanted to keep. You only gave to look at the Hawks who gave up Kennedy and McGlynn to see that all teams make decisions that sometimes don't work out- including reigning premiers.

 

[Starcevich90]

So....of the 17 sides that FAIL each year, I'm assuming that the bottom sides FAIL worse than the top sides?

If North Melbourne or Port Adelaide bow out (as expected) next week I don't think anyone will be calling their seasons a failure. So yes, bottom sides do fail far worse than finals teams that might not achieve the final step.

How did you feel finishing 11th this year, compared to, say 2007, when we fell just short in a prelim?

 

[Robroy22]

If North Melbourne or Port Adelaide bow out (as expected) next week I don't think anyone will be calling their seasons a failure. So yes, bottom sides do fail far worse than finals teams that might not achieve the final step.

How did you feel finishing 11th this year, compared to, say 2007, when we fell just short in a prelim?

So, let me get it straight....you can FAIL but succeed if you're not Collingwood...that's right then??

And personally that win against the Giants was really reminiscent of the 2007 boys...I love seeing youngsters coming through and I enjoy the trials and tribulations of real footy. 18 teams compete (not to some formula...they just compete as best they can) and at the end of it....someone wins and lots lose. Do you know that when the Pies beat Norm Smith's Demons in '58 the pundits called for Smith's sacking because a premiership had been stolen? Melbourne won 5 out of 7 flags in that era and there were still people labelling Smith and his team "FAILURES" or "under achievers"....or...they made a mistake!
As long as a footy bounces funny, clubs will try their hearts out to win the big one. They will make mistakes, it's not a perfect science like some BF posters believe. But in the end the pies will go on and people will either love of hate em.
I'm one of the lucky ones that gets to love em.

 

[Starcevich90]

Sharrod averages 18 possessions per game and even in 2010 he only averaged 19.5 - his best year. There would not be one club in the comp that wouldn't back Broomhead to be better than that as it stands.

Add the fact that if he was batter up in a baseball game he would be nervous about one more swing and a miss - and we have done well to get pick 17 for him which became Broomhead.

There is not player we have let go that the club wanted to keep. You only gave to look at the Hawks who gave up Kennedy and McGlynn to see that all teams make decisions that sometimes don't work out- including reigning premiers.

Broomhead is averaging 12.88 disposals and has played 8 games in two years. I'm sorry that's not an upgrade at this stage. I hope he does progress, but people need to start dealing in reality, not blind faith.

Dawes is also bagged relentlessly on here but I'm yet to see anything approaching what he offered, even accounting for 2012 when he was poor AND played completely out of position. Lynch = spud. White = dud. Reid = made of glass.

 

[Starcevich90]

So, let me get it straight....you can FAIL but succeed if you're not Collingwood...that's right then??

And personally that win against the Giants was really reminiscent of the 2007 boys...I love seeing youngsters coming through and I enjoy the trials and tribulations of real footy. 18 teams compete (not to some formula...they just compete as best they can) and at the end of it....someone wins and lots lose. Do you know that when the Pies beat Norm Smith's Demons in '58 the pundits called for Smith's sacking because a premiership had been stolen? Melbourne won 5 out of 7 flags in that era and there were still people labelling Smith and his team "FAILURES" or "under achievers"....or...they made a mistake!
As long as a footy bounces funny, clubs will try their hearts out to win the big one. They will make mistakes, it's not a perfect science like some BF posters believe. But in the end the pies will go on and people will either love of hate em.
I'm one of the lucky ones that gets to love em.

If you're happy to call this season and Buckley's coaching stint thus far a SUCCESS then I'm happy for you.
I love the Pies as much as anyone but I still think that doesn't mean I shouldn't question the direction the club is headed if that direction appears to be the plughole.

 

[good4footy]

Broomhead is averaging 12.88 disposals and has played 8 games in two years. I'm sorry that's not an upgrade at this stage. I hope he does progress, but people need to start dealing in reality, not blind faith.

Dawes is also bagged relentlessly on here but I'm yet to see anything approaching what he offered, even accounting for 2012 when he was poor AND played completely out of position. Lynch = spud. White = dud. Reid = made of glass.

We will need to disagree. He only has to be an average player to be Wellingham's equal. He averages nearly 13 possessions and 1.13 goals a game (Wellers 17.4 possessions & 0.38 goals per game in 2014 / 0.59 career) in his first senior year playing predominately half forward.

As for living in reality - you went on about 35 possessions and playing on Judd. He averages 18 possessions a game and Judd got 3 votes nearly every time he played against us- that is the reality. I doubt anyone on here or in the football world would prefer to have Wellers instead of Broomhead.

As for Dawes:

Dawes 2014 - 12.3 possessions and 1.1 goals a game (2012 0.69 goals a game) * (even in 2010- possessions 12.35 per game and 1.5 goals playing forward only)

White 2014 - 10.5 -possessions and 1.1 goals a game and we also got Kennedy.

Dawes 2013 - 9.1 posessions and 1 goal a game

Lynch 2013 - 14.5 possesions and 0.5 goal a game

To say you "are yet to see anything approaching" what he offered is wrong once again. Vey similar stats to those that replaced him- including when he played in a premiership team. The other two pretty much matched Dawes in the same years and we also got Kennedy.

 

[Starcevich90]

We will need to disagree. He only has to be an average player to be Wellingham's equal. He averages nearly 13 possessions and 1.13 goals a game (Wellers 17.4 possessions & 0.38 goals per game in 2014 / 0.59 career) in his first senior year playing predominately half forward.

As for living in reality - you went on about 35 possessions and playing on Judd. He averages 18 possessions a game and Judd got 3 votes nearly every time he played against us- that is the reality. I doubt anyone on here or in the football world would prefer to have Wellers instead of Broomhead.

As for Dawes:

Dawes 2014 - 12.3 possessions and 1.1 goals a game (2012 0.69 goals a game) * (even in 2010- possessions 12.35 per game and 1.5 goals playing forward only)

White 2014 - 10.5 -possessions and 1.1 goals a game and we also got Kennedy.

Dawes 2013 - 9.1 posessions and 1 goal a game

Lynch 2013 - 14.5 possesions and 0.5 goal a game

To say you "are yet to see anything approaching" what he offered is wrong once again. Vey similar stats to those that replaced him- including when he played in a premiership team. The other two pretty much matched Dawes in the same years and we also got Kennedy.

I don't need stats to tell me Lynch and White have been very, very ordinary. And I don't see Kennedy lining up at CHF.

 

[ipswichpies]

So, let me get it straight....you can FAIL but succeed if you're not Collingwood...that's right then??

And personally that win against the Giants was really reminiscent of the 2007 boys...I love seeing youngsters coming through and I enjoy the trials and tribulations of real footy. 18 teams compete (not to some formula...they just compete as best they can) and at the end of it....someone wins and lots lose. Do you know that when the Pies beat Norm Smith's Demons in '58 the pundits called for Smith's sacking because a premiership had been stolen? Melbourne won 5 out of 7 flags in that era and there were still people labelling Smith and his team "FAILURES" or "under achievers"....or...they made a mistake!
As long as a footy bounces funny, clubs will try their hearts out to win the big one. They will make mistakes, it's not a perfect science like some BF posters believe. But in the end the pies will go on and people will either love of hate em.
I'm one of the lucky ones that gets to love em.

Love that post .

 

[Robroy22]

If you're happy to call this season and Buckley's coaching stint thus far a SUCCESS then I'm happy for you.
I love the Pies as much as anyone but I still think that doesn't mean I shouldn't question the direction the club is headed if that direction appears to be the plughole.

Grundy, Ben Ken, Broomy, Witts, Freeman, Marsh, Adams, Thomas, Moore, PK, Langdon, Scharen, Billy Elliott, Marley, Ramsey, Seedsman, Oxley, Martin.....yep NO FUTURE THERE....(lol)
I might be silly but I don't think too many of those kids think the club's future "direction appears to be the plughole"....you wanna tell them?

oh ye of little faith (patience)

 

[Scodog10]

The obvious thing which jumps out is that we have a lot of promoted rookies and lower picks getting regular games, but when you look at who those players actually are (Lumumba, Frost, Williams, Langdon, to name a few) you see some of our better performers, which tells you that our development people have actually done a pretty good job in identifying value-for-money picks and developing them. You could put Witts, Thomas and Seedsman in the same category, although they have a fair way to go.

On the other hand more than half of their team was made up of top 20 picks. I've included Hombsch as he was one of those GWS underage selections and its fair to assume he would have gone top 20 is it not?

Kane Cornes - 2000 pick 20
Ollie Wines - 2012 pick 7
Hamish Hartlett - 2008 pick 4
Angus Monfries - 2005 pick 12
Jack Hombsch - 2011 GWS 17 year old access selection
Jay Schulz - 2002 pick 12
Chad Wingard - 2011 pick 6
Matthew Lobbe - 2007 pick 16
Travis Boak - 2006 pick 5
Brad Ebert - 2007 pick 13
Jared Polec - 2010 pick 5
Jasper Pittard - 2009 pick 16
Andrew Moore - 2009 pick 9

Theres 8 top 20 picks there who were drafted between 2005 and 2010 who are in or coming in to their prime years, and that isnt even counting Wines and Wingard.

The top 20 picks on our list were mostly taken more recently if Im not mistaken, so maybe once we start getting more experience into them, plus continuing our performance in maximising our rookies and lower draft picks, we'll be a contender again

I'll just step in on this one. This is where the moves to bring in Armstrong, Russell, Lynch, Young and White hurt.

Instead of trading role players out when their currency is at it's peak we've been bringing role players in as gap filler to pad out the list. It's left us in no mans land in terms of re-building or continuing to challenge.

Last year when White was brought on board we traded selections 11 & 31 to get that done. Keeping the deal for 6 separate I'm confident we could have done it differently. Perhaps a move of 31 & Blair to get back into the 20's could have landed us McStay. Lumumba going out this year could potentially help land us Clark (a former top 10 pick). With Clark on board Reid can shift back making one of the formerly rookie listed Keeffe and Frost surplus to needs who we then trade to get back into the top 25 of the draft.

In one fell swoop we move on 3 formerly rookie listed players and a 4th round draftee for 3 picks in the top 25 with the potential to use 44 still. Unfortunately our ability to get the best out of rookie selections is one of our great strengths, but I now view it as a weakness because the high end talent isn't there in comparison with our competitors moving forward (Port, GWS, GC and WB) at this point in time.

 

[good4footy]

I don't need stats to tell me Lynch and White have been very, very ordinary. And I don't see Kennedy lining up at CHF.

If Dawes has similar stats and they are ordinary what is your point about Dawes. Why bring him up as a mistake? What's your point?

Kennedy was brought into it to show we got people at the same level as Dawes and an extra young player with him leaving. Would redo every day of the week.

People keep bringing up these players having left and I am yet to see anyone show how we would be better off if they stayed.

 

[Scodog10]

I'd also just like to make a general comment on this thread. I'm off Buckley ATM for my own reasons, but what I don't like reading is hard line negativity or support. The heat has gone out of our fall from grace so some critical thinking must start coming into it.

We have made mistakes along the way and like every club we will continue to make mistakes. The problem is that with overt positivity or negativity few people in general are prepared to own their mistakes and learn from them.

From my perspective we are learning in some areas (moving away from bringing in fringe players), a wait and see approach is required in others (injury management and rehab measures) and regressing in others (onfield structure and general tactical nous) so there's too much grey currently to be overly positive or negative on what we're doing.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Grundy, Ben Ken, Broomy, Witts, Freeman, Marsh, Adams, Thomas, Moore, PK, Langdon, Scharen, Billy Elliott, Marley, Ramsey, Seedsman, Oxley, Martin.....yep NO FUTURE THERE....(lol)
I might be silly but I don't think too many of those kids think the club's future "direction appears to be the plughole"....you wanna tell them?

oh ye of little faith (patience)

How many of those will make it? Lots of speculation but so many late round picks really.
Broomhead will make it. Can't be sold on others just yet.

 

[jmac70]

How many of those will make it? Lots of speculation but so many late round picks really.
Broomhead will make it. Can't be sold on others just yet.

Any chance you could jump in your Delorean and find out for us? It would save a lot of angst.

 

[Robroy22]

How many of those will make it? Lots of speculation but so many late round picks really.
Broomhead will make it. Can't be sold on others just yet.

And therein lies the interest. Whether they "make it" (by which I'm assuming you mean your own version of make it....multiple premiership players and AA's) I just enjoy the ride. Watching kids learn and develop is a really positive experience, enjoying the fruits of their labours is just a bonus.

 

[good4footy]

I'd also just like to make a general comment on this thread. I'm off Buckley ATM for my own reasons, but what I don't like reading is hard line negativity or support. The heat has gone out of our fall from grace so some critical thinking must start coming into it.

We have made mistakes along the way and like every club we will continue to make mistakes. The problem is that with overt positivity or negativity few people in general are prepared to own their mistakes and learn from them.

From my perspective we are learning in some areas (moving away from bringing in fringe players), a wait and see approach is required in others (injury management and rehab measures) and regressing in others (onfield structure and general tactical nous) so there's too much grey currently to be overly positive or negative on what we're doing.

Like the post a lot but I think that a lot of the positive posts come from defending the club against the never ending, mind numbing posters who make ridiculously negative comments.

I am on the more positive side but happy to acknowledge we have made mistakes and glad we do as we would not be having a crack if we just take safe options with our way forward. Just need to look at Hawthorn- we have not made a mistake as big as Kennedy and McGlynn in recent times and they are in the box seat for back to back.

 

[good4footy]

How many of those will make it? Lots of speculation but so many late round picks really.
Broomhead will make it. Can't be sold on others just yet.

Another motherhood statement post with no facts. What does 'make it' mean? What do you base your confidence on Broomy but none of the others?