Analysis Pies win! Cloke you superstar

[neilk]

Was at the game and didn't hear the commentary, but was there any explanation of the free against White in the last quarter where he dived to clear the ball and the Melbourne player (Howe?) was running at right angles to White basically tripped over him? White didn't dive at his legs so couldn't understand the free?

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

That bolded part is not just the Pies. Actually David King highlighted this exact issue on FoxFooty on Friday night. WHilst the Pies aren't the best at stemming the tide (we averaged 3 or more goals 5 times this season) we certainly weren't the worst (Nth melbourne 7 times). But even Hawthorn were up the on 5 times and Port was worse at 6. So it isn't in isolated issue and the "lab" had no real idea on why happens and why it is so hard to stop.

Most teams have structures in place that if the opposition score 2 or more consecutive goals you drop one back or bring an extra to the centre stoppage or whatever. It just doesn't seem to be effective for any team except Fremantle this year. I have no idea what we have in place as a designated slow down fall back as we seem to lose momentum every week and rarely do we free up the same player as a loose man. We never seem to have an extra sit 15m off the back (defensive side) of a stoppage.

I'd personally love to see Jesse White charging through the centre bounces from our forward 50 and physically imposing himself on the other teams midfielders. Generally speaking Buckley and the coaching staff seem to be very conservative in our structures and match ups.

I'm sure you are correct. It's just taken a few of us by surprise this year. It doesn't seem so long ago to me that the Swans and Eagles of the mid naughtiest were playing a game style akin to some European soccer teams, get a goal or two in front then stonewall for the rest of the game. Then there was Ross Lyons uber defensive set up, then Geelong took over for a while, then the press. I remember a key stat in 2010 was that if your team got out by 30 plus points in the game, statistically you could relax and make a cup of tea. The other side weren't coming back from there. I used to hang on to this in the GFs against The Saints. It was very agonising because we got out to just under by half time in both games.

Today a 30 point margin evaporates in ten minutes just as ours did yesterday (I watched the clock, it was ten minutes). I'm sure the Richmond comeback was similar. As I said, you are correct, that's footy now. It's just hard for some of us to come to terms with the fact that such swings don't reflect a flakiness or lack of coaching nous. I guess we are always looking for someone to blame when things go wrong!

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Nobody asked us to leave - I just thought we had stuck it out for long enough. I wasn't really enjoying myself and my little guy (who had been amazing) was looking like it was starting to affect him. At the end I regretted I wasn't there to see their faces but I felt that by then things could've got ugly. My son was just as happy to have a kick and know we won for him and he sang the song all the way back to Flinders St.

I should also add that not all of the Dees supporters were like that - just enough (and one family in particular) to make it very uncomfortable.

For the record I think you handled this situation really well and did what a good father should do.

I've started taking my eldest two to the game and they are passionate. My son especially is quite vocal and I have switched roles now from being one eyed to trying to give him a bit more perspective. Every now and then we both groan at the same umpiring decision. There we a few yesterday.

Also, old habits die hard. I had a 'moment' with a cheats fan in front in that game - an exchange over a free kick that went Carltanks way where I called him a clown. Immediately I felt appalled that I'd done this with my kids at the game and resolutely went back into my shell for the rest of the game. At half time I was texting a Collingwood mate and told him how ashamed I was to get involved in an exchange while my kids were there with a cheats fan. He replied:

'It's ok you did the right thing, the guy in front IS a cheat. Carlton deserve every bit of abuse you give them, you are setting the RIGHT example for your kids. Well played.'

He is a funny man. All jokes aside, sorry you had to sit among so many livid, self righteous Dees assholes. On the few occasions I've done so it has been excruciating. Most of them don't know the rules and half their own players.

Well done, your kids well being is always the most important thing. Go Pies.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Was at the game and didn't hear the commentary, but was there any explanation of the free against White in the last quarter where he dived to clear the ball and the Melbourne player (Howe?) was running at right angles to White basically tripped over him? White didn't dive at his legs so couldn't understand the free?

It was designated as 'tunneling' another one the ump would and should be embarrassed to review, particularly in slo mo. Your description of it is spot on, just a simple contest where the Melbourne player went high and fell on him. You'd say it was the most ridiculous decision of the day if it wasn't for the Grundy one. Also, while the commentary team were doing their job of trying to get Melbourne across the line they were carrying on about Cloke getting the free for being held by Dunne. Even Maxy, trying to show his balance was saying no free kick. It was a flat out mauling. Couldn't help thinking if it was Hawkins no one would have batted an eye lid, he gets those for any kind of skin on skin contact. Grrrrr.

 

[dmoore30]

How'd Hogan go? Correct. Frost gave him a ******* bath.

In Hogans defence, he got worse delivering than what Clokes been getting for years. Big Jesse might be in for a couple of very long seasons with the deliver Melbourne have been fishing the past few weeks. Although Frosty did still win the challenge and in a quite comfortable manner

 

[Quicky]

That we're grinding through these victories (North included) is great for development and building belief and confidence, I'll give that.

But even with the outs and if Pendles was on one leg, we're still a much better midfield than Melbourne and we shouldn't have been slaughtered at the stoppages as we were today. They kicked 9.2 from stoppages, and we're generally a team that's good at contested footy and clearances.

I rate GWS' midfield a lot more than Melbourne's, and if our mids are caught napping next week like they were today, we'll lose.

I don't disagree with any of that, although I think Melbournes midfield is underated. It has a good blend of experience and class developing talent.

You are right we can't be caught napping against GWS or they will pick us apart. It is a great challenge and I think will answer some questions about where we are at as a club.

 

[golazo]

Got ahead of ourselves and played like millionaires against a garbage side.

You've got to remember that this was Melbourne's Grand Final.

They always raise their game for the QB clash. Anyone remember our 2 games against them in 2010?

 

[wicksy]

That bolded part is not just the Pies. Actually David King highlighted this exact issue on FoxFooty on Friday night. WHilst the Pies aren't the best at stemming the tide (we averaged 3 or more goals 5 times this season) we certainly weren't the worst (Nth melbourne 7 times). But even Hawthorn were up the on 5 times and Port was worse at 6. So it isn't in isolated issue and the "lab" had no real idea on why happens and why it is so hard to stop.

Most teams have structures in place that if the opposition score 2 or more consecutive goals you drop one back or bring an extra to the centre stoppage or whatever. It just doesn't seem to be effective for any team except Fremantle this year. I have no idea what we have in place as a designated slow down fall back as we seem to lose momentum every week and rarely do we free up the same player as a loose man. We never seem to have an extra sit 15m off the back (defensive side) of a stoppage.

I'd personally love to see Jesse White charging through the centre bounces from our forward 50 and physically imposing himself on the other teams midfielders. Generally speaking Buckley and the coaching staff seem to be very conservative in our structures and match ups.

I'd personally love a million dollars.

 

[ColinMochrie]

Did we lose? My god this post game thread shows everything that's wrong with this board.

To the people saying we have only beaten the bottom sides and aren't a threat: We know!
We are a long way off from the top teams. You know why? We are young and developing! We are on the up. Why some people can't accept that I will never understand. Also can't believe people blame bucks for the fall down the ladder post 2011. We and our game plan were spent after that year and it was obvious to the football world.

A great win in the end. Bucks gave a chance for the players to stop the dees run but when it became obvious they couldn't he made the move. It was almost the old malthouse "teach a lesson" to the players tactic.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Did we lose? My god this post game thread shows everything that's wrong with this board.

To the people saying we have only beaten the bottom sides and aren't a threat: We know!
We are a long way off from the top teams. You know why? We are young and developing! We are on the up. Why some people can't accept that I will never understand. Also can't believe people blame bucks for the fall down the ladder post 2011. We and our game plan were spent after that year and it was obvious to the football world.

A great win in the end. Bucks gave a chance for the players to stop the dees run but when it became obvious they couldn't he made the move. It was almost the old malthouse "teach a lesson" to the players tactic.

The next few weeks will be interesting CM. I have to say I agree with your post. As mentioned earlier most had us out of the 8 and some even bottom 4 at the start of the season. Of course we could always fall in a heap from this point similar to last year but you get the feeling there's a bit more structure, spirit and depth to what's going on this year. Injuries also, fingers crossed, haven't yet been as catastrophic. Good lord there's an outside chance Ben Reid may even play again at some point (getting carried away now).

If you'd offered me a 7-3 start at the beginning of the year I'd have taken it in a flash. The Richmond game was winnable but then we've had several that were also loseable which we prevailed in and usually you don't win them all. This is the first time in living memory Collingwood has had an easy draw, and we've made the most of it, banked some wins and got much needed confidence and morale into a young group. And it is a young group. Bruce had to pull himself up yesterday because he was about to talk about Melbourne fading late because 'they're such a young side' then he realised 'Collingwood is a young team too but you just feel they've got more legs'. This is instructive, we had a side yesterday that was slightly younger than Melbournes but more experienced because of the planning that has gone into building this team over 3 years now. ALL of what is happening with them is positive, positive, positive. I still have doubts on one or two (Seedsman, Witts) but I'm not going to let that ruin an overwhelmingly positive start to the season.

The next 4 weeks will be a real test but what a great opportunity for this young side you get a) a chance to play the most exciting talent laden development side in the comp and a birds eye view of who we need to steal off them at seasons end b) a chance to test ourselves against two of the benchmarks of the comp to see if we've made any progress and c) an away game against a completely different but another potential heavy weight in Port.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Not much love for Fas on here? He didn't have a breakout game, but his attack at the ball and his composure helped a lot throughout the match. Was really happy he's maintained his effort. You get the feeling Maxy is riding his arse at the club to make sure he does better, his commentary on Ch7 said as much.

Given how slick GWS' midfield is, I'd be resting Broomy this week and letting Kennedy have his turn. Even Broomy himself wasn't happy with his touch - fumbly, slow and just not clicking.

 

[bucksisbest]

Yeah... It's like we didn't have an opposition to contend with our there. Please.

Yeah we did and we got outplayed for substantial parts of the day in key areas, after quarter time. Against a team who many said played their best footy at times against us in years, where we may want to look at how we allowed that to happen.

You do realise we are on the pies board discussing the game from our perspective?!

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

BTW, if we're reviewing umpiring decisions, how was Jeff Garlett's move not a free kick? He slid to grab the ball to intentionally take out Toovey's legs when they were running at goal in Q2. Still shaking my head at decisions from yesterday.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Was at the game and didn't hear the commentary, but was there any explanation of the free against White in the last quarter where he dived to clear the ball and the Melbourne player (Howe?) was running at right angles to White basically tripped over him? White didn't dive at his legs so couldn't understand the free?

The umpiring was dubious throughout.

White was already on the ground, jumped at the ball and was penalised.
Grundy was pushed in the back, fell into Jones' legs as a result, penalised.
Varcoe hadn't had the ball for a split second, got tackled, penalised.

Melbourne on the other hand....

- Allowed to play Rugby. CONSTANTLY throwing the ball and allowed to get away with it
- Players being caught red handed with prior but play allowed to go on
- Players consistently being spun 360 degrees but allowed to play on
- Players being caught in the same manner as Varcoe was by Watts, yet allowed to play on

The inconsistency was maddening. Completely different to the Richmond game where they just got EVERYTHING and we got nothing. Against Melbourne, the Free kick count was roughly even, but they were just soooooo inconsistent.

 

[peatease]

Umpires aside, I liked our attack on the ball. The tackling pressure was good.

I was worried at how Melbourne had a run on, mostly through domination the center bounce clearances. I think Gawn had 20HOs to advantage.

Marley's looking like one of the top small defenders in the league, and his decision making is really good. His disposal has improved slightly but it's the decision making that makes the difference.

The gulf between the decision making of the two sides I'd say was the main difference. We scored mainly through turnovers from pressure and just random Demons brain fades.

I also liked the contest our forwards made, especially when clearing the ball outside 50. For a lot of the game I thought we managed to prevent Melbourne having multiple i50 entries.

Cloke's 'pain in the butt' comment so cheeky yet an apt description. The support for Daniher and freeze MND has been spectacular.
A reminder of how good the vast majority of supporters actually are.

 

[rose jam]

I'm sure you are correct. It's just taken a few of us by surprise this year. It doesn't seem so long ago to me that the Swans and Eagles of the mid naughtiest were playing a game style akin to some European soccer teams, get a goal or two in front then stonewall for the rest of the game. Then there was Ross Lyons uber defensive set up, then Geelong took over for a while, then the press. I remember a key stat in 2010 was that if your team got out by 30 plus points in the game, statistically you could relax and make a cup of tea. The other side weren't coming back from there. I used to hang on to this in the GFs against The Saints. It was very agonising because we got out to just under by half time in both games.

Today a 30 point margin evaporates in ten minutes just as ours did yesterday (I watched the clock, it was ten minutes). I'm sure the Richmond comeback was similar. As I said, you are correct, that's footy now. It's just hard for some of us to come to terms with the fact that such swings don't reflect a flakiness or lack of coaching nous. I guess we are always looking for someone to blame when things go wrong!

The issue with the run-on's that we've had in every game is that our centre square mix doesn't have a combination of good balance anymore and when our prime team is not in there we are conceeding the scoring chains. We have periods where we lose a lot of stoppages in a row and that's when we concede scores.
We don't seem to get hit on transition goals in a big run, mostly stoppage goals. Will get better as we learn to put more players through there. Yesterday Blair went in when we were going against it in the 2nd and that seemed to rebalance it as a more defensive stoppage set up to slow down the easy exits they were getting.

 

[Big Bryza]

Yeah we did and we got outplayed for substantial parts of the day in key areas, after quarter time. Against a team who many said played their best footy at times against us in years, where we may want to look at how we allowed that to happen.

You do realise we are on the pies board discussing the game from our perspective?!

Add Greenwood and Adams to the middle and it nullifies Jones and Vince. End of the day we only lost the clearances by 4 and we managed to get on top in the 2nd half. It was really that passage in the 2nd term where the dees kicked 6 goals in 12 mins that hurt us. Once Oxley was placed behind the footy I felt as if we were in control of the game.

Not sure what you're getting at with your last comment but anyway, it was a solid win by the boys.

 

[Big Bryza]

BTW, if we're reviewing umpiring decisions, how was Jeff Garlett's move not a free kick? He slid to grab the ball to intentionally take out Toovey's legs when they were running at goal in Q2. Still shaking my head at decisions from yesterday.

The Jessie White decision where he was first to the ball and had the Melbourne player (forget who it was) run in to him and trip over and then receive a free for it was a fair dinkum disgrace.

 

[Maggie5]

I hate Dees supporters personally, they're a disgusting mob.

It's funny but they are one of few teams I love to win against purely based on their supporters. Felt like this since 1990!

 

[jmac70]

It's funny but they are one of few teams I love to win against purely based on their supporters. Felt like this since 1990!

At the pub yesterday it was amazing to see how many Dees fans had flags. Even old blokes were carrying them. I guess it's the one game they go to all year...

 

[Old Spice]

At the pub yesterday it was amazing to see how many Dees fans had flags. Even old blokes were carrying them. I guess it's the one game they go to all year...

Were you in Kew?

 

[jmac70]

Were you in Kew?

I was at Transport in the city. The Dees fans had a function at Fed square. One old bloke nearly poked my eye out with his flag, he is lucky I didn't insert it.

 

[Old Spice]

I was at Transport in the city. The Dees fans had a function at Fed square. One old bloke nearly poked my eye out with his flag, he is lucky I didn't insert it.

Hard to penetrate those moleskins.

 

[jmac70]

Hard to penetrate those moleskins.

So true.

 

[TradeDraft]

The umpiring was dubious throughout.

White was already on the ground, jumped at the ball and was penalised.
Grundy was pushed in the back, fell into Jones' legs as a result, penalised.
Varcoe hadn't had the ball for a split second, got tackled, penalised.

Melbourne on the other hand....

- Allowed to play Rugby. CONSTANTLY throwing the ball and allowed to get away with it
- Players being caught red handed with prior but play allowed to go on
- Players consistently being spun 360 degrees but allowed to play on
- Players being caught in the same manner as Varcoe was by Watts, yet allowed to play on

The inconsistency was maddening. Completely different to the Richmond game where they just got EVERYTHING and we got nothing. Against Melbourne, the Free kick count was roughly even, but they were just soooooo inconsistent.

I think Everyone wanted the Dees to win because of Neil Danhier