Training Pre Season '23

[The Mighty]

My early call is that Seth Campbell will be in the side playing that pressure forward role by the end of the year. Has a good mix of speed and endurance.

Might be in round 1 the way things are going .................

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

 

[Grrr]

The one issue I am having with our side is the forward line and how it relates to our system. Love or hate Castagna, with him no longer in the side we do not seem to have forwards who apply pressure in our forward line. Now I am not talking about just tackle pressure. I am talking the MRJ stuff, the chasing, the blocking of space which in turn disrupts the clean ball out of our forward line. It's a selfless role and what has worked for us is we need two of those players, not just one.

Now If we have a forward line of Lynch, Reiwoldt and Cumberland which i think has to be a lock, as all three are different type of forwards to each other and create mismatches that can be exploited. So with the last three of Shai, Martin and MRJ I would personally make Bolton a mid first forward second and offer the chase, pressure role to a kid with pace that we believe has a future with us, like a clarke.

I dont have a starting spot for chimp. He only comes on either in the center to give a mid a spell or forward when we are giving our small or medium forwards a rest.

We had the highest scoring forward line in the league last year, so not that much is going wrong, even better when George left and Cumberland came in.

Besides half of Cumberland and Rioli's goals come from pressure acts, something George struggles with in the end, (mainly due to his ability to kick points).

The stand rule is a massive part of why teams can rebound quickly now and has made the purely pressure forward a bit null and void. Name another purely pressure forward in the game.

 

[Groupie_]

love it when this earringed angry dude with the filthy look gets a gig
emulates a lot of our feelings on here

he goes to every mcg home game

 

[Wooden Robot]

The one issue I am having with our side is the forward line and how it relates to our system. Love or hate Castagna, with him no longer in the side we do not seem to have forwards who apply pressure in our forward line. Now I am not talking about just tackle pressure. I am talking the MRJ stuff, the chasing, the blocking of space which in turn disrupts the clean ball out of our forward line. It's a selfless role and what has worked for us is we need two of those players, not just one.

Now If we have a forward line of Lynch, Reiwoldt and Cumberland which i think has to be a lock, as all three are different type of forwards to each other and create mismatches that can be exploited. So with the last three of Shai, Martin and MRJ I would personally make Bolton a mid first forward second and offer the chase, pressure role to a kid with pace that we believe has a future with us, like a clarke.

I dont have a starting spot for chimp. He only comes on either in the center to give a mid a spell or forward when we are giving our small or medium forwards a rest.

George did very little of anything last year and in 2021, including the application of 'pressure'.
He was actually a liability and the forward line thrived when he was gone.
I'm not putting all our so-called forward woes on him, but he was part of it, as was Edwards non-performing.
We'll be far better off with people making an 'all-round' contribution.

I do agree we only have the one real MRJ type in the team.
But if he stops doing those things, it's pointless persisting with the role and you find another way to win.

 

[SplintWhisky]

The above should be scary to Dimma. The fact that our defence was shocking last year shows that we need to look to getting our team defence and forward defence back in line. We cant get into shoot outs again, we have to grind out teams like 2017-2020

 

[RobsJourney]

View attachment 1625449

The above should be scary to Dimma. The fact that our defence was shocking last year shows that we need to look to getting our team defence and forward defence back in line. We cant get into shoot outs again, we have to grind out teams like 2017-2020

We don’t have the quality and speed/fitness in the midfield anymore to repeatedly pressure and turn the ball over. Also dunno what happened to us running over teams late in quarters, it became the opposite in 21 and 22.

 

[Dr Tigris]

View attachment 1625449

The above should be scary to Dimma. The fact that our defence was shocking last year shows that we need to look to getting our team defence and forward defence back in line. We cant get into shoot outs again, we have to grind out teams like 2017-2020

I'd potentially take a different message from that work. We can score like crazy, but we have problems in the middle and in defence. So we should try to work from our strength, ball movement and scoring. And we need to fix our problems, contested ball and defensive structures/pressure. If we can control/nullify contested ball then we can slow down the oppo and move the ball into our forward line. Having fast ball movement suits us, as long as we don't lose control of the ball and so allow fast clean ball into our defensive 50.

The stand rule means the manic pressure won't work any more. But it also means that slingshot ball movement is more important, and contested ball is where you can control the game (I don't mean winning contested ball, but controlling contested situations so you get clean ball out). The new rules mean that ongoing chaos ball is relatively easily beaten now. But, they also mean that you MUST stop clean ball movement forward from the set situations enabled by the stand rule - defence folds back deep to force teams to run at you or kick to a contest.

That only leaves controlling contested ball and then moving it forward cleanly as the approach that will win games (Oh sorry, did I just say that the rule changes lead straight into the old Geelong style being more likely to win?). That change in game style is what we are trying to do. Not the Geelong style necessarily, but a style that focuses on clean fast ball movement and can win/control contested ball, whilst still applying pressure. that analysis shows we are 1/2 way there. But we lost control of he ball and so the game last year. Our pressure style doesn't work any more, but our changed approach basically still relied on Cotch and Meatball to dominate. Good luck nowadays.

So what we have a great ball movement and scoring power. But we had limited ability to stop other teams moving the ball themselves. The 2 GWS guys + other changes should help there. If we can only just 1/2 contested ball and make the oppo ball movement dirty then we should improve out of sight defensively.

 

[RobsJourney]

I'd potentially take a different message from that work. We can score like crazy, but we have problems in the middle and in defence. So we should try to work from our strength, ball movement and scoring. And we need to fix our problems, contested ball and defensive structures/pressure. If we can control/nullify contested ball then we can slow down the oppo and move the ball into our forward line. Having fast ball movement suits us, as long as we don't lose control of the ball and so allow fast clean ball into our defensive 50.

The stand rule means the manic pressure won't work any more. But it also means that slingshot ball movement is more important, and contested ball is where you can control the game (I don't mean winning contested ball, but controlling contested situations so you get clean ball out). The new rules mean that ongoing chaos ball is relatively easily beaten now. But, they also mean that you MUST stop clean ball movement forward from the set situations enabled by the stand rule - defence folds back deep to force teams to run at you or kick to a contest.

That only leaves controlling contested ball and then moving it forward cleanly as the approach that will win games (Oh sorry, did I just say that the rule changes lead straight into the old Geelong style being more likely to win?). That change in game style is what we are trying to do. Not the Geelong style necessarily, but a style that focuses on clean fast ball movement and can win/control contested ball, whilst still applying pressure. that analysis shows we are 1/2 way there. But we lost control of he ball and so the game last year. Our pressure style doesn't work any more, but our changed approach basically still relied on Cotch and Meatball to dominate. Good luck nowadays.

So what we have a great ball movement and scoring power. But we had limited ability to stop other teams moving the ball themselves. The 2 GWS guys + other changes should help there. If we can only just 1/2 contested ball and make the oppo ball movement dirty then we should improve out of sight defensively.

I don’t believe that the stand rule stops pressure. It was a strength of Collingwood’s game in 2022 and guess where it came from? Macrae ala Richmond.
We’ve either forgotten how or just can’t do it anymore or it was never Dimma’s idea in the first place, and is now gone given (seemingly) the main catalysts in Caracella and Macrae are gone.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

I'd potentially take a different message from that work. We can score like crazy, but we have problems in the middle and in defence. So we should try to work from our strength, ball movement and scoring. And we need to fix our problems, contested ball and defensive structures/pressure. If we can control/nullify contested ball then we can slow down the oppo and move the ball into our forward line. Having fast ball movement suits us, as long as we don't lose control of the ball and so allow fast clean ball into our defensive 50.

The stand rule means the manic pressure won't work any more. But it also means that slingshot ball movement is more important, and contested ball is where you can control the game (I don't mean winning contested ball, but controlling contested situations so you get clean ball out). The new rules mean that ongoing chaos ball is relatively easily beaten now. But, they also mean that you MUST stop clean ball movement forward from the set situations enabled by the stand rule - defence folds back deep to force teams to run at you or kick to a contest.

That only leaves controlling contested ball and then moving it forward cleanly as the approach that will win games (Oh sorry, did I just say that the rule changes lead straight into the old Geelong style being more likely to win?). That change in game style is what we are trying to do. Not the Geelong style necessarily, but a style that focuses on clean fast ball movement and can win/control contested ball, whilst still applying pressure. that analysis shows we are 1/2 way there. But we lost control of he ball and so the game last year. Our pressure style doesn't work any more, but our changed approach basically still relied on Cotch and Meatball to dominate. Good luck nowadays.

So what we have a great ball movement and scoring power. But we had limited ability to stop other teams moving the ball themselves. The 2 GWS guys + other changes should help there. If we can only just 1/2 contested ball and make the oppo ball movement dirty then we should improve out of sight defensively.

I dispute that the catters ever looked fast with their ball movement...they looked like they were always weighing up their ball movement options whenever they marked the ball. It was careful and considered movement to a (favourable) contest...always waiting the last moment and umpires whistle to play on unless they had a clear upfield advantage. Their ball movement appeared/looked fast when they had continuity in their kick/mark contests.
Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy...with a mark...you can stop/stand the oppo play...effectively reducing the oppo to 17 players on the field of play. Teams now can move the footy on without being actively pressured. Doesn't matter if you go backwards, sideways, whatever...as long as you mark as opposed to controlling the footy...your team is favourably advantaged when you play on from a mark cos the man on the mark is now subject to the whims/attention span of the controlling umpire...not the game!
Standing the mark has skewered/biased the game of footy to outside influence...reduced it from a contest between two oppo teams to one controlled by the umpires attention span/whims.

 

[RobsJourney]

I get that stand makes the opponent just 17, but isn’t the guy with the ball kind of otherwise out of the play? It’s still 17 v 17 in other words. The team with the guy with the ball has the advantage but that was always the case anyway, stand just enhanced that advantage.

For the record I hate stand.

 

[domin8]

I don’t believe that the stand rule stops pressure. It was a strength of Collingwood’s game in 2022 and guess where it came from? Macrae ala Richmond.
We’ve either forgotten how or just can’t do it anymore or it was never Dimma’s idea in the first place, and is now gone given (seemingly) the main catalysts in Caracella and Macrae are gone.

Here we go another one of these. McRae was the VFL and Development coach so he would have had 2/5ths of **** all to do with the senior game plan. Caracalla was more ball movement but that’s neither here nor there.

The main factor in the pressure has been the personnel change.
Lambert (couldn’t get on the park) Castagna (form dipped) Rioli (changed roles) Butler (gone) B Ellis (gone) these guys were the catalyst for most of the pressure or perceived pressure applied. What did they have in common? The ability to cover the ground and repeat their efforts. Add to them, Graham in the midfield who was fantastic at applying pressure at the coal face, the demographic has changed.

We don’t have as many “role” players as we did. It’s an easy solution. Just takes a bit of application from the right type of player.

 

[RobsJourney]

Here we go another one of these. McRae was the VFL and Development coach so he would have had 2/5ths of * all to do with the senior game plan. Caracalla was more ball movement but that’s neither here nor there.

The main factor in the pressure has been the personnel change.
Lambert (couldn’t get on the park) Castagna (form dipped) Rioli (changed roles) Butler (gone) B Ellis (gone) these guys were the catalyst for most of the pressure or perceived pressure applied. What did they have in common? The ability to cover the ground and repeat their efforts. Add to them, Graham in the midfield who was fantastic at applying pressure at the coal face, the demographic has changed.

We don’t have as many “role” players as we did. It’s an easy solution. Just takes a bit of application from the right type of player.

I disagree sorry. Our whole team used to be all in on the pressure. Remember how many jumpers used to flood the screen? We were last for tackles last season, LAST. I’m pretty sure the pressure aspect came from Caracella. He was the new coach the year we started doing it, as well as the forward handball. No coincidence that after he moved to Essendon they started trying it and we stopped.

I dunno though, it’s probably not something we stopped so much as we got too old to be able to keep it up, and changed tact.

But I miss watching us pressure like mad, that was our schtick and it was fun even when we didn’t win.

 

[RFCGloryJC]

Will be interesting to see how they modify the mid to forward line with the departure of Cads and Lambs.

 

[manangatang]

I disagree sorry. Our whole team used to be all in on the pressure. Remember how many jumpers used to flood the screen? We were last for tackles last season, LAST. I’m pretty sure the pressure aspect came from Caracella. He was the new coach the year we started doing it, as well as the forward handball. No coincidence that after he moved to Essendon they started trying it and we stopped.

I dunno though, it’s probably not something we stopped so much as we got too old to be able to keep it up, and changed tact.

But I miss watching us pressure like mad, that was our schtick and it was fun even when we didn’t win.

Are you truly suggesting that when an assistant coach leaves, that every concept of what they believed in no longer exists within the club?

That seems quite mad.

 

[Grrr]

I dispute that the catters ever looked fast with their ball movement...they looked like they were always weighing up their ball movement options whenever they marked the ball. It was careful and considered movement to a (favourable) contest...always waiting the last moment and umpires whistle to play on unless they had a clear upfield advantage. Their ball movement appeared/looked fast when they had continuity in their kick/mark contests.
Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy...with a mark...you can stop/stand the oppo play...effectively reducing the oppo to 17 players on the field of play. Teams now can move the footy on without being actively pressured. Doesn't matter if you go backwards, sideways, whatever...as long as you mark as opposed to controlling the footy...your team is favourably advantaged when you play on from a mark cos the man on the mark is now subject to the whims/attention span of the controlling umpire...not the game!
Standing the mark has skewered/biased the game of footy to outside influence...reduced it from a contest between two oppo teams to one controlled by the umpires attention span/whims.

Against that, now that that the man on the mark has to stop, play on is the go to method. We are still the masters of this game, hense no.2 from back-line to scoring. Geelong also took this method on, mainly due to the fact that they had two very good targets to go long to Cameron and Hawkins. They also had Stengle at ground level.

Melbourne are also a play on side, they have great rebound 50, but also from stoppages, where we were previously weak, hence our backline was often exposed. Hopefully Prestia stays on the park because the GWS boys should by a fair margin help with stoppages. A fit Martin is always good around stoppages and I think Cotchin might surprise with a bit more space to move in, he rarely loses a loose ball contest. If we even the contest, then our backline could get back to what it does best.

 

[Grrr]

I don’t believe that the stand rule stops pressure. It was a strength of Collingwood’s game in 2022 and guess where it came from? Macrae ala Richmond.
We’ve either forgotten how or just can’t do it anymore or it was never Dimma’s idea in the first place, and is now gone given (seemingly) the main catalysts in Caracella and Macrae are gone.

The stand rule allows the man with the ball to play on with impunity hense the ball moves much faster and more direct. Collingwood won so many games because (a good part), they had this weird belief that they could win from any situation, and basically did. Lose two or three of those close ones and that belief wanes. They fluked a lot of wins this year.

 

[Tiger71]

We had the highest scoring forward line in the league last year, so not that much is going wrong, even better when George left and Cumberland came in.

Besides half of Cumberland and Rioli's goals come from pressure acts, something George struggles with in the end, (mainly due to his ability to kick points).

The stand rule is a massive part of why teams can rebound quickly now and has made the purely pressure forward a bit null and void. Name another purely pressure forward in the game.

I think you missed my point or more likely I over explained it lol. Our forward line offensive output I have zero issue with.

What we do have a major problem that was exposed last year as well as the two practice games is the ease the oppo move the ball from our f50 arc.

That applies huge pressure on our mids and backs.

 

[domin8]

I think you missed my point or more likely I over explained it lol. Our forward line offensive output I have zero issue with.

What we do have a major problem that was exposed last year as well as the two practice games is the ease the oppo move the ball from our f50 arc.

That applies huge pressure on our mids and backs.

Clearly that because Caracalla left and Dimma can’t coach

 

[fargothegreat]

I think you missed my point or more likely I over explained it lol. Our forward line offensive output I have zero issue with.

What we do have a major problem that was exposed last year as well as the two practice games is the ease the oppo move the ball from our f50 arc.

That applies huge pressure on our mids and backs.

This is the reason everyone keeps saying our backline has dropped off.

It's not their fault. They're just under so much more pressure because the ball coming in is a lot cleaner rather than hack kicks under pressure that are easily intercepted.

 

[guruisatiger]

Got a feeling Mansell could be a bolter for a small pressure defensive forward role.

He's got the pace and the aggro and his free kicks against wont be as damaging in the forward 50.

Similar to how we turned jake king from a small defensive player to a very successful small forward,,, I like your idea

 

[Grrr]

I think you missed my point or more likely I over explained it lol. Our forward line offensive output I have zero issue with.

What we do have a major problem that was exposed last year as well as the two practice games is the ease the oppo move the ball from our f50 arc.

That applies huge pressure on our mids and backs.

Agree and I think the stand rule has a lot to do with it in regard to us. We used to back off and hit the next contest and pressure it, that was a hallmark of our game. Smart players like Edwards, Cotchin and Lambert really capitalised on the hard work of our pressure forwards. But now playing on is the no.1 mode of breaking the lines, something were were that best at. Other sides are now able to do it due to that lack of pressure allowed around the ball.

I'm sure they have worked on it over summer. MRJ has double the defensive pressure of any player in the league, so we are lucky to have him at least, but players like him these days are rare. Imagine the damage he would have done at our peak.

Besides our backline is not as stable or as good as in our glory years. Rance was incredible, Astbury very under rated. Grimes has struggled a bit the last two years and Balta is just learning the craft. Gibcus similar but more so. So under pressure it is not the same unit, hopefully better this year, pity about Gibcus, he will be a massive player for us.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

Haven't looked up the stats but it felt like we just stopped taking intercept marks last year. It's a huge element of a teams defensive capabilities. You can punch the ball over the boundary all day but it just gives the oppo another chance to set up. We were our absolute best with Floss and Grimes and Rance clunking grabs rather than belting them.
Need to get Grimes and Floss at least to start backing themselves again. Miller and Tarrant have good mitts too but one of them needs to play the dour Astbury role.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I dispute that the catters ever looked fast with their ball movement...they looked like they were always weighing up their ball movement options whenever they marked the ball. It was careful and considered movement to a (favourable) contest...always waiting the last moment and umpires whistle to play on unless they had a clear upfield advantage. Their ball movement appeared/looked fast when they had continuity in their kick/mark contests.
Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy...with a mark...you can stop/stand the oppo play...effectively reducing the oppo to 17 players on the field of play. Teams now can move the footy on without being actively pressured. Doesn't matter if you go backwards, sideways, whatever...as long as you mark as opposed to controlling the footy...your team is favourably advantaged when you play on from a mark cos the man on the mark is now subject to the whims/attention span of the controlling umpire...not the game!
Standing the mark has skewered/biased the game of footy to outside influence...reduced it from a contest between two oppo teams to one controlled by the umpires attention span/whims.

I never said they were fast. I said "controlling contested ball and then moving it forward cleanly as the approach that will win games". Geelong always were clean mark kick. Last year they sped up.

The things stand did was
1) allowed teams to have set up plays again and again as long as they had a free/mark. This rewards skills, patience and smarts.
2) stopped manic pressure because a free/mark allowed you to reset and remove the pressure set up we applied (this is why we have moved away from that - doesn't work as your 1 wood anymore. It's a must have, but the rest of our old game plan has been forced off stage)
3) Moved the game away from rolling mauls, and broken play to set ups (mark/free) or contested situations. Free running is still the same. But the entire logic of our player selection and development and game style was broken (well done SHocking, now get your dream job)
4) allows teams that can move the ball cleanly and quickly to get one on one forward opportunities. So having 2 good KPFs + crumber/s is a huge advantage. Previously you could always cause pressure on the ball and stop that clean ball inside 50 - if you were good enough (we won 3 premierships doing that)

Re Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy I agree and disagree. Marking the ball will mostly slow you down, and to score heavily relies on fast clean ball movement. The new paradigm is fast ball movement through lots of mini set plays. i.e. mark then stand next the guy on the mark and have someone run through the protected zone and get a free clean possession 5 meters beyond the mark. Very fast, no pressure, reliable and easily instructed. But this is also easy to defend against - sit back and create defence in depth. In the end that forces teams to kick to a contest, often and outnumber, unless they can move the ball very fast.

This means that slingshot from the back is now huge in the game. And if the ball movement is disrupted controlling contests is key. Our style of zig zag half in half to ball movement that also allowed us to apply huge pressure is almost dead (or more truly a more minor part of play). So marking the ball is vital. But, it's not so much the marking, as using the ability to create lots of set plays that is the new paradigm. And stopping those set plays. We're great at the set plays now, but poor at defending against them. Or more to the point, our midfield was no longer capable of controlling contested ball in 2021. This has always been bad, but now it kills you. We got 2 guys to fix this. We'll see how it goes now. Bit worried about our defence so far. But it gets real this coming week.

 

[Dr Tigris]

I don’t believe that the stand rule stops pressure. It was a strength of Collingwood’s game in 2022 and guess where it came from? Macrae ala Richmond.
We’ve either forgotten how or just can’t do it anymore or it was never Dimma’s idea in the first place, and is now gone given (seemingly) the main catalysts in Caracella and Macrae are gone.

What I mean is that the stand rule allows a lot of set plays with little/no pressure. Previously we could aggressively patrol the mark and so force the ball to not go forward easily and quickly. Now you can run around the mark and kick the ball - no pressure. That means the kick should hit a target. Which reduces pressure. Any free/mark then removes our previous pressure.

Once the ball is in contest then our old pressure style can come into play. But now teams can side step it.

We have really lost that pressure a lot of the time, I agree.

But focusing on what made us great won't work any more. You can play a kick mark style and our pressure is simply put aside. Different defensive structures now. But our old game is still relevant, just not the one wood.