Training Pre Season '23

[db26]

correct the forward line pressure is not there ball comes out to easy and we get cut up in transition we seen it in preseason needs rectifying. The stand rule is there for all clubs simple as that yeah we got a few older players, but as someone mentioned the cats do to and there pressure and tackling numbers we're chalk and cheese compared to us I'm not buying that.

 

[RobsJourney]

What I mean is that the stand rule allows a lot of set plays with little/no pressure. Previously we could aggressively patrol the mark and so force the ball to not go forward easily and quickly. Now you can run around the mark and kick the ball - no pressure. That means the kick should hit a target. Which reduces pressure. Any free/mark then removes our previous pressure.

Once the ball is in contest then our old pressure style can come into play. But now teams can side step it.

We have really lost that pressure a lot of the time, I agree.

But focusing on what made us great won't work any more. You can play a kick mark style and our pressure is simply put aside. Different defensive structures now. But our old game is still relevant, just not the one wood.

Yep all makes sense but, again, Collingwood became a pressure side last season and that was their one-wood, and it got them to within 1 point of a Grand Final. If stand has stopped that being possible, why could the Pies do it?

 

[Hank Heavenly]

Yep all makes sense but, again, Collingwood became a pressure side last season and that was their one-wood, and it got them to within 1 point of a Grand Final. If stand has stopped that being possible, why could the Pies do it?

possibly because they don't have a KPF, they are all mid or small sized fwds...
The deficiency became their strength

 

[Dr Tigris]

Yep all makes sense but, again, Collingwood became a pressure side last season and that was their one-wood, and it got them to within 1 point of a Grand Final. If stand has stopped that being possible, why could the Pies do it?

They won all the close ones. They made it work where, for some reason, we couldn't.

I don't mean stand makes pressure not work. It does, if you don't provide huge pressure then you are not a contender. But it is an entry point requirement now. When the Dogs and then us brought the heat it was new. Now it is a base state.

What stand does is it makes our style of controlled chaos not work. That style requires the ball to be in contest all the time, well a lot of the time, and we had a unique style that took advantage of that. Our style was attacking and defensive at once. How we used to set up created a mismatch for us that other teams didn't match. Once you can reset and create lots of little set piece plays you can nullify our old game plan.

Pressure was only one part of that game plan.

IMHO where we lost it last year as 1) our midfield was shallow and as soon as we lost Meatball and Cotch couldn't do Cotch of old we lost that midfield battle and so lost control of the ball movement, and 2) we were still adjusting our game style away from controlled chaos to high speed ball movement, and we basically were patchy as all hell. One week/quarter we smashed all comers, the next we sucked. We ran out of legs often, or maybe more ran out of structure.

In 2021 our best was the BEST. Our worst was terrible. I hope that the 2 new guys + another year to embed new habits we will bring our best.

 

[RobsJourney]

They won all the close ones. They made it work where, for some reason, we couldn't.

I don't mean stand makes pressure not work. It does, if you don't provide huge pressure then you are not a contender. But it is an entry point requirement now. When the Dogs and then us brought the heat it was new. Now it is a base state.

What stand does is it makes our style of controlled chaos not work. That style requires the ball to be in contest all the time, well a lot of the time, and we had a unique style that took advantage of that. Our style was attacking and defensive at once. How we used to set up created a mismatch for us that other teams didn't match. Once you can reset and create lots of little set piece plays you can nullify our old game plan.

Pressure was only one part of that game plan.

IMHO where we lost it last year as 1) our midfield was shallow and as soon as we lost Meatball and Cotch couldn't do Cotch of old we lost that midfield battle and so lost control of the ball movement, and 2) we were still adjusting our game style away from controlled chaos to high speed ball movement, and we basically were patchy as all hell. One week/quarter we smashed all comers, the next we sucked. We ran out of legs often, or maybe more ran out of structure.

In 2021 our best was the BEST. Our worst was terrible. I hope that the 2 new guys + another year to embed new habits we will bring our best.

All well described. Hopefully we get some better luck with injuries this year. I know all teams get them, but you generally need most of your best 22 on the field all season to be a good chance, and we just haven't had a proper crack at things for a few years now, and 2023 has started alarmingly similar on that front.

 

[Dr Tigris]

All well described. Hopefully we get some better luck with injuries this year. I know all teams get them, but you generally need most of your best 22 on the field all season to be a good chance, and we just haven't had a proper crack at things for a few years now, and 2023 has started alarmingly similar on that front.

Completely agree.

If Dion had stayed fit all year I wonder how different it would have been. Perhaps a few more wins and then finals would have been competitive. But being so reliant on one player with dodgy bits is a problem. With some luck this year will be good injury wise.

 

[tora tora tora]

All well described. Hopefully we get some better luck with injuries this year. I know all teams get them, but you generally need most of your best 22 on the field all season to be a good chance, and we just haven't had a proper crack at things for a few years now, and 2023 has started alarmingly similar on that front.

Martin missing big chunks of 2 seasons has been unprecedented. He probably should not have played the final.
We for good replacements for or Graham, Edwards George and Aarts.
Prestia played his average. We found a player in Sonsie. Lynch always misses a few.
We got a look at Miller and Gibcus partially to do with Grimes missing a few.
Cotch, Nank and Jack barely missed.

 

[tora tora tora]

Completely agree.

If Dion had stayed fit all year I wonder how different it would have been. Perhaps a few more wins and then finals would have been competitive. But being so reliant on one player with dodgy bits is a problem. With some luck this year will be good injury wise.

And the latest injury scare to Prestia is vindication of TT and JH on our list.
Dion average is 17 games. Which hadn't been finals until last year.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

We don’t have the quality and speed/fitness in the midfield anymore to repeatedly pressure and turn the ball over. Also dunno what happened to us running over teams late in quarters, it became the opposite in 21 and 22.

The loss of Rob inness to the swans was a huge blow.
Not a coincidence they made the gf.

 

[SplintWhisky]

The loss of Rob inness to the swans was a huge blow.
Not a coincidence they made the gf.

Need to get him back. Screw the cap. One of the biggest reason that we were able to win the 3 flags is that we had our best players on the park at the crucial times in the year and they were ultra fit. Now we continue to look like muppets with injury lists and looking out of gas by 3qtr time.

 

[The Mighty]

possibly because they don't have a KPF, they are all mid or small sized fwds...
The deficiency became their strength

And they are younger and faster, and havent won 3 flags to quench their hunger.

Oh and they are Collingwood so they get looked after by the Umps instead of getting reamed, which also helps.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Need to get him back. Screw the cap. One of the biggest reason that we were able to win the 3 flags is that we had our best players on the park at the crucial times in the year and they were ultra fit. Now we continue to look like muppets with injury lists and looking out of gas by 3qtr time.

Would be great.But one of the afls luv child.
I don't like our chances.

 

[JR82]

View attachment 1625449

The above should be scary to Dimma. The fact that our defence was shocking last year shows that we need to look to getting our team defence and forward defence back in line. We cant get into shoot outs again, we have to grind out teams like 2017-2020

This a great post. This is why we got Rutten back to the Club, he's the recruit no1 is talking about & like Teague with our fwd line last yr i'd expect our defence to improve as the yr goes on.

 

[JR82]

I don’t believe that the stand rule stops pressure. It was a strength of Collingwood’s game in 2022 and guess where it came from? Macrae ala Richmond.
We’ve either forgotten how or just can’t do it anymore or it was never Dimma’s idea in the first place, and is now gone given (seemingly) the main catalysts in Caracella and Macrae are gone.

Agree here, the best way to defeat the "stand" rule & flip the bird at SHocking & Whateley & co is to stop the oppo marking the ball in the 1st place. Applying pressure helps so the the kick is "dirty ball". IMO the 2 GWS will help with this as it starts at the contest, if we lose the clearance the kick must have pressure applied to it & it can start from there. Our issue last 2 yrs started with the fact that we were getting smashed at the contest & sides could carve us up with clean ball straight from the contest. We have the offensive game, once we sort out defence we'll crack the code & we'll be away.

 

[Do the Dew]

Yep all makes sense but, again, Collingwood became a pressure side last season and that was their one-wood, and it got them to within 1 point of a Grand Final. If stand has stopped that being possible, why could the Pies do it?

They won 11 games by under 2 goals. If they had lost 3 of them then they would've finished 8th. If they'd lost 4 then they would've finished 10th. They ran the gauntlet all year and eventually came up short but just getting to a prelim was a ridiculously unlikely outcome.

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

I never said they were fast. I said "controlling contested ball and then moving it forward cleanly as the approach that will win games". Geelong always were clean mark kick. Last year they sped up.

The things stand did was
1) allowed teams to have set up plays again and again as long as they had a free/mark. This rewards skills, patience and smarts.
2) stopped manic pressure because a free/mark allowed you to reset and remove the pressure set up we applied (this is why we have moved away from that - doesn't work as your 1 wood anymore. It's a must have, but the rest of our old game plan has been forced off stage)
3) Moved the game away from rolling mauls, and broken play to set ups (mark/free) or contested situations. Free running is still the same. But the entire logic of our player selection and development and game style was broken (well done SHocking, now get your dream job)
4) allows teams that can move the ball cleanly and quickly to get one on one forward opportunities. So having 2 good KPFs + crumber/s is a huge advantage. Previously you could always cause pressure on the ball and stop that clean ball inside 50 - if you were good enough (we won 3 premierships doing that)

Re Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy I agree and disagree. Marking the ball will mostly slow you down, and to score heavily relies on fast clean ball movement. The new paradigm is fast ball movement through lots of mini set plays. i.e. mark then stand next the guy on the mark and have someone run through the protected zone and get a free clean possession 5 meters beyond the mark. Very fast, no pressure, reliable and easily instructed. But this is also easy to defend against - sit back and create defence in depth. In the end that forces teams to kick to a contest, often and outnumber, unless they can move the ball very fast.

This means that slingshot from the back is now huge in the game. And if the ball movement is disrupted controlling contests is key. Our style of zig zag half in half to ball movement that also allowed us to apply huge pressure is almost dead (or more truly a more minor part of play). So marking the ball is vital. But, it's not so much the marking, as using the ability to create lots of set plays that is the new paradigm. And stopping those set plays. We're great at the set plays now, but poor at defending against them. Or more to the point, our midfield was no longer capable of controlling contested ball in 2021. This has always been bad, but now it kills you. We got 2 guys to fix this. We'll see how it goes now. Bit worried about our defence so far. But it gets real this coming week.

Fast is a relative term...your fast is not my fast and vice versa...the success of your footy/coach game plan is in it's success...how successfully you retain and move the ball. I can see Clarkson's/Hawks ball plan returning that was carried out beautifully by Mitchell and Team! Control the ball movement!
Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy...simply because of the stand rule...and works well with ball control.
The stand rule has changed footy...simply by removing an oppo out of the play until the umpire says go! the player with the ball has at times strolled past the oppo on the mark with not a care in the world other than set up the next marking contest.
The more times you mark the footy...the more times you reduce the oppo in front of you...and the more times you reduce the oppo the more times you control the game...
To me contested ball is a breakdown in play...all players are involved! It is easier to mark and kick and less taxing...with one less oppo in the play!
I'll coach my team to mark and kick against your team of controlling contested ball!

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

They won all the close ones. They made it work where, for some reason, we couldn't.

I don't mean stand makes pressure not work. It does, if you don't provide huge pressure then you are not a contender. But it is an entry point requirement now. When the Dogs and then us brought the heat it was new. Now it is a base state.

What stand does is it makes our style of controlled chaos not work. That style requires the ball to be in contest all the time, well a lot of the time, and we had a unique style that took advantage of that. Our style was attacking and defensive at once. How we used to set up created a mismatch for us that other teams didn't match. Once you can reset and create lots of little set piece plays you can nullify our old game plan.

Pressure was only one part of that game plan.

IMHO where we lost it last year as 1) our midfield was shallow and as soon as we lost Meatball and Cotch couldn't do Cotch of old we lost that midfield battle and so lost control of the ball movement, and 2) we were still adjusting our game style away from controlled chaos to high speed ball movement, and we basically were patchy as all hell. One week/quarter we smashed all comers, the next we sucked. We ran out of legs often, or maybe more ran out of structure.

In 2021 our best was the BEST. Our worst was terrible. I hope that the 2 new guys + another year to embed new habits we will bring our best.

See one needs to define pressure in the modern footy game...'pressure' is not a one wood generic term...
Pressure shifts and changes through the course of a game...there is score board pressure, free kick pressure, physical pressure, closing pressure, intimidation pressure, illegal tactic pressure...
How the feck does a team/coach turn on this so called 'pressure' like a tap?!?
It's about control...what can the player/coach control!
Once the team leaves the Coaches huddle...the coaches have lost control.
Once the ball leaves the forward line the forwards have lost control.
A player can only control what he does well or not...and his oppo is of the same like mind.

 

[lumpinee]

Fast is a relative term...your fast is not my fast and vice versa...the success of your footy/coach game plan is in it's success...how successfully you retain and move the ball. I can see Clarkson's/Hawks ball plan returning that was carried out beautifully by Mitchell and Team! Control the ball movement!
Marking the ball is now the new paradigm of footy...simply because of the stand rule...and works well with ball control.
The stand rule has changed footy...simply by removing an oppo out of the play until the umpire says go! the player with the ball has at times strolled past the oppo on the mark with not a care in the world other than set up the next marking contest.
The more times you mark the footy...the more times you reduce the oppo in front of you...and the more times you reduce the oppo the more times you control the game...
To me contested ball is a breakdown in play...all players are involved! It is easier to mark and kick and less taxing...with one less oppo in the play!
I'll coach my team to mark and kick against your team of controlling contested ball!

stand rule pits 18 players against 17 in an instant,its cheating and an abomination on the game,marking is everything,never forget rd 2 2021 when Sydney carved us on the G,my eyes were clearly opened that day,hadnt seen us toyed with like that in a long while,Sydney took 124 marks,many thru the centre corridor

 

[Muddiemoose]

stand rule pits 18 players against 17 in an instant,its cheating and an abomination on the game,marking is everything,never forget rd 2 2021 when Sydney carved us on the G,my eyes were clearly opened that day,hadnt seen us toyed with like that in a long while,Sydney took 124 marks,many thru the centre corridor

It’s not really cheating if both teams are playing with the same rules
Sydney capitalised on the change and we didn’t

 

[sante]

It’s not really cheating if both teams are playing with the same rules
Sydney capitalised on the change and we didn’t

Exactly. So many in here go on about it as if we are the only ones having to stand on the mark. Same thing happens when we take a mark, yet for whatever reason we don’t take advantage of it like other teams do

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

I get that stand makes the opponent just 17, but isn’t the guy with the ball kind of otherwise out of the play? It’s still 17 v 17 in other words. The team with the guy with the ball has the advantage but that was always the case anyway, stand just enhanced that advantage.

For the record I hate stand.

Nope...not when the guy with the footy can run around the stand oppo on the mark...until the umpire decides to call play on...
And until the umpire calls play on it is effectively 17 V 18 in play...

 

[JAKLAUGHING]

Exactly. So many in here go on about it as if we are the only ones having to stand on the mark. Same thing happens when we take a mark, yet for whatever reason we don’t take advantage of it like other teams do

Wrong...it is an inconsistently applied umpiring rule...waiting for the umpire to make the play on call...how many times do we see play commence and still the oppo have not moved off from their spot waiting for the umpire to yell out play on!
A few such late umpire calls to play on in the oppo forward line can change the scoreline dramatically.
And the way we are treated by the umpires in the free kick differential...it's easy to see RFC getting the same biased treatment with late umpire calls.

 

[tora tora tora]

Wrong...it is an inconsistently applied umpiring rule...waiting for the umpire to make the play on call...how many times do we see play commence and still the oppo have not moved off from their spot waiting for the umpire to yell out play on!
A few such late umpire calls to play on in the oppo forward line can change the scoreline dramatically.
And the way we are treated by the umpires in the free kick differential...it's easy to see RFC getting the same biased treatment with late umpire calls.

The stand situation occurs at free kicks for and marks of the footy. If we can't up one stat, frees for. We can up the marks stat.
In the practice game. We were -6 on frees. -10 on marks.

 

[Wooden Robot]

They won 11 games by under 2 goals. If they had lost 3 of them then they would've finished 8th. If they'd lost 4 then they would've finished 10th. They ran the gauntlet all year and eventually came up short but just getting to a prelim was a ridiculously unlikely outcome.

But let's be honest, if it was Richmond either 'grinding it out', or just falling in' to win 11 games by two goals or less, we'd view it as something brilliant and character defining! Take my hat off to the Pies.

 

[Groupie_]

I watched this clip again and none of our players are busting a gut at all

all dees players going full bore