Training Pre-season updates 2025.

[sr36]

We’ve seen over the last 12 months that the coaching staff want another key defender to support Moore alongside Howe and Maynard with Murphy gone. There’s far less evidence to support them changing up the structure to an undersized defence than there is to support them maintaining the 2 keys + Howe as the intercepting 3rd.

Melbourne used to play May, Petty and Lever, with Lever playing as the "third tall". It wasn't a ranking system. Pretty unlikely that they rated Petty above Lever as a kpd. Just as when we play Frampton, with Howe loose as 3rd tall, it doesn't mean we rate Frampton above Howe as a kpd.

We want 3 blokes defending the air and Howe plays 3rd tall really well, whereas Frampton doesn't. So sure, when we have 3 fit talls down back, Howe will play 3rd tall but that doesn't make him the 3rd best, just as Checkers isn't the 3rd best tall forward when both McStay and Cox are on the ground playing as the biggest targets.

 

[Apex36]

For certain, Moore sacrifices his game for the benefit of the team playing off his man almost akin to zone defence. That is our unfortunate reality in that we’ve not been able to find a replacement for Murphy, Reef isn’t a key position player either.

I’d query the aggressive positioning though, I think his run and carry and intercepts were down last year…I think he plays off his man as more of a defensive ‘Libero’ type strategy.

You need to remember that Murphy wasn’t a key position player either until he suddenly was.

Reef has almost an inch in height over Murphy and has supposedly put on bulk this preseason. How about you actually watch him play the role before declaring what he is or isn’t?

 

[sr36]

You clearly said that he's the greatest defender of all time and we should sign him up for 10 years.

I got what you meant, you think at the moment it looks like he's the front runner to be our second KPD with Howe as our third tall/interceptor. I also agree, and I'm not sure why everyone is taking it any other way.

Because the conversation was about "2nd best kpd" - not likely or potential role within the team.

Hopefully Reef can nail a kpd spot. It would be fantastic for the team, but if anyone is currently ranking him above Howe and Maynard for any role in our defence - from full back to running back and everything in between - they're dreaming.

 

[Think Goodly]

Pre-season training.

January 24.

9:30-12:30.

Absent:

• Reef
• Beau
• TJ

Rehab:

• Mitchell
• Johnson
• Sullivan.

Nick completed most of the session with lot of drills as he ramps up his progression from the foot injury.
Josh and Jordy completed 80-90% of the session. Josh will be back in full training next week when they return, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jordy is the same.

Thomas McGuane started his 2nd stint at the pies, as he begins his highly anticipated draft year. A few VFL players also participated in the session including the likes of Harry Mahoney and Curtis Taylor. Brady Grey and one other one, the same ones as last week.
Tom didn't look out of place. The way he uses his hands when kicking the ball, it's very Nick like. Has real composure and doesn't look outawed amongst the bigger bodies. Given his age, he still has a light frame, but thats to be expected at this stage.

He'll be at training next Wed-friday to complete his week before CTL resumes in Feb. This was about the same time of year as when Nick (And Dib) trained with the club at the start of his draft year. So this is the start of something special for young Tommy. He even wore the #34 for a bit of training today as well. Looks good on him.

Curtis Taylor did a run down tackle on bruz and got him HTB, how much was he on the other side of a tackle like that at north? I bet he felt happy he was able to give it back haha.

Harry Mahoney too didn't look out of place with the afl boys and the uptempo speed of the training. He is someone the club really like, and how he plays.

There was some conditioning, drills involving handballing to one another in a tight group. There was was the forwards and defenders moving around at FF trying to create space, and one player (Jordy or Houston - they donned the orange vests) being the deignated kicker inside F50.

There was also a ball movement drill and a shorter match play senario before in the last part of the session was a proper full ground match sim. They seemed to play for I'd say 20 mins, one quarter. As they start to ramp things up. I'd say we would be three weeks from the intraclub -- by the time they get back next week, it'll be closer to 2 weeks. So I would assume we would be seeing match sims every week (fridays most likely) as we head toward then.


I think we have a lock on who our wings will be.
Lippa and Sidey.
WHE I think will rotate with Lippa between wing and HF, as he was opposite wing to Lippa/Sidey through match sim today.

Midfield was Allan. Fin. Long v Pendles. Crisp. Perryman.
I'm very interested to see how they fit all of Pendles. Crisp. Perryman, Nick. Jordy. Mitchell?? into the mid rotations given Perryman is training and playing fully as a inside mid.

Obviously no Cox, he'll be back next week apparantely, so it gave Steene and Smit a good opportunity to be front and centre v DC.

All in all, it was a good session.

Thanks as always Jen - another great report. In the videos Crisp features a bit and to me it looks like he is leaner than last year and seems to be covering the ground really well. I know he works super hard on his fitness. Have you noticed any changes?

 

[Jen2310]

Thanks as always Jen - another great report. In the videos Crisp features a bit and to me it looks like he is leaner than last year and seems to be covering the ground really well. I know he works super hard on his fitness. Have you noticed any changes?

Not sure, possibly. I've always thought he was lean but strong in the arms and shoulders.

 

[Hardas]

It's gonna be hard to get into the team with so many near-certain starters, but I'm really hoping to see a bunch of younger players consistently knocking on the door from the VFL side in the early games.

 

[Jen2310]

It's gonna be hard to get into the team with so many near-certain starters, but I'm really hoping to see a bunch of younger players consistently knocking on the door from the VFL side in the early games.

injuries will happen. There will always be opportunity

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

 

[Jelly Bean]

Because the conversation was about "2nd best kpd" - not likely or potential role within the team.

Hopefully Reef can nail a kpd spot. It would be fantastic for the team, but if anyone is currently ranking him above Howe and Maynard for any role in our defence - from full back to running back and everything in between - they're dreaming.

It was me that said it, and as DERKADERR said, it was in reference to him being the likely candidate as the 2nd KPD in the team. I was assuming we have a preference to have Howe remain as a third tall. My expectation is that Reef gets the nod over Dean and Frampton for the 2nd KPD post, and hence my comment. I don't even know why Maynard is even in the conversation.

I don't know why people are flipping out... Whether it's Reef or Dean or Frampton, my point is the same - without Moore, one of these guys needs to step up to become our 1st KPD, and that's a big drop off from the skipper.

 

[Hardas]

injuries will happen. There will always be opportunity

Sure - it's a brutal game - just hoping (expecting) to see.some of the younger brigade rising up & challenging for the last few spots, even without any injuries setting in.

 

[Jen2310]

Sure - it's a brutal game - just hoping (expecting) to see.some of the younger brigade rising up & challenging for the last few spots, even without any injuries setting in.

We def need to start seeing the changing of the guard. Where the kids have earned their spot so that come 2026 they are ready to take over.

 

[sr36]

It was me that said it, and as DERKADERR said, it was in reference to him being the likely candidate as the 2nd KPD in the team. I was assuming we have a preference to have Howe remain as a third tall. My expectation is that Reef gets the nod over Dean and Frampton for the 2nd KPD post, and hence my comment. I don't even know why Maynard is even in the conversation.

I don't know why people are flipping out... Whether it's Reef or Dean or Frampton, my point is the same - without Moore, one of these guys needs to step up to become our 1st KPD, and that's a big drop off from the skipper.

Maynard is in the conversation because they all shift and cover for each other a heap and Maynard is often on a tall either due to in game situations or because we've been forced or chosen to go in with only two other "talls".

In a perfect world, you'd want Darcy Moore loose in a Sicily style role. But we haven't got the list for that so he matches up on the forward whose central and deep usually on the big bloke and the others match up around him. Howes the one we try to get loose, because he reads it well, is good at coming over the top and such a good kick, but he's also good in a match up if needs be.

You probably inadvertently used the phrase 2nd best kpd. I said considering him our second best kpd is nuts. Apex chimed in and it snowballed from there.

I agree with you overall. If Darcy is out it's a massive hole as Frampton would probably play central and deep to a much lower standard than Moore does and also not cause teams to alter their forward entries for the gun marking defender. So Frampton would become our "no1 defender" - despite not being our second best, the whole number 1, 3rd tall defender thing isn't a ranking system - it's not about best to worst - it's what combination fills the roles we want best for us.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I haven’t heard a lot about Fin Macrae this pre-season.

How is he doing?

 

[Copeland]

Jen2310 Hows Westy going at training please.

 

[Jen2310]

Jen2310 Hows Westy going at training please.

Definitely producing good moments. Has very good hands. Marks very well, uncontested and contested.
Looking forward to seeing him in games.

 

[Jen2310]

I haven’t heard a lot about Fin Macrae this pre-season.

How is he doing?

Quietly underrated. Has a new role that I feel suits him. Looks stronger, and his hands are so quick, one of his strengths. Big year for him.

 

[sr36]

Quietly underrated. Has a new role that I feel suits him. Looks stronger, and his hands are so quick, one of his strengths. Big year for him.

What's his new role?

 

[Jelly Bean]

Maynard is in the conversation because they all shift and cover for each other a heap and Maynard is often on a tall either due to in game situations or because we've been forced or chosen to go in with only two other "talls".

In a perfect world, you'd want Darcy Moore loose in a Sicily style role. But we haven't got the list for that so he matches up on the forward whose central and deep usually on the big bloke and the others match up around him. Howes the one we try to get loose, because he reads it well, is good at coming over the top and such a good kick, but he's also good in a match up if needs be.

You probably inadvertently used the phrase 2nd best kpd. I said considering him our second best kpd is nuts. Apex chimed in and it snowballed from there.

I agree with you overall. If Darcy is out it's a massive hole as Frampton would probably play central and deep to a much lower standard than Moore does and also not cause teams to alter their forward entries for the gun marking defender. So Frampton would become our "no1 defender" - despite not being our second best, the whole number 1, 3rd tall defender thing isn't a ranking system - it's not about best to worst - it's what combination fills the roles we want best for us.

I know how we set up, and even still I'd never describe Maynard as a KPD.

Let's go back to my central point though - and no issue with anyone disagreeing with it (that's what this forum is all about).

My central point is (and was) that I think Moore is the hardest player to replace in our best structure, given the lack of proven quality of the direct replacement candidates for his role (whether you think that's McIness, Frampton, Maynard, Dean, etc).

One could certainly make a case that it would in fact be Nick Daicos, as he is clearly our best player. But I think we could still put together a very high functioning midfield without Nick if we needed to (with some evidence being that the first half of 2023 he didn't play mid and we won lots, and the last 4 games of 2023 including a final he didn't play at all).

There could also definitely be a case made for McStay, and he is almost certainly our most dangerous marking threat forward, but again, we've barely had him since he joined the club and we haven't been too bad with our replacement structures. Cox spends more time on the ground, Membrey would come in as a taller forward alongside Mihocek, WHE even plays more as a darting leading forward type, etc.

You could also argue a Cameron, but Cox is a strong back up ruck option, and it's probably time to acid test either Smit or Steene as a second fiddle to Cox if we need to, and if not, then a Frampton or McStay would take second ruck duties to Cox.

 

[Kappa]

How close is De Goey to full training? Another poor preseason is quite bad news

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

How close is De Goey to full training? Another poor preseason is quite bad news

And from Jen's training report on Friday :

Josh and Jordy completed 80-90% of the session. Josh will be back in full training next week when they return, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jordy is the same.

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

I know how we set up, and even still I'd never describe Maynard as a KPD.

Let's go back to my central point though - and no issue with anyone disagreeing with it (that's what this forum is all about).

My central point is (and was) that I think Moore is the hardest player to replace in our best structure, given the lack of proven quality of the direct replacement candidates for his role (whether you think that's McIness, Frampton, Maynard, Dean, etc).

Think you are a year old in this thinking....but you're not alone.

Just to weigh in on the Murph/ Reef convo....

We just have NO ONE who can play Murph role.
Without that role, Moore is 2024 as opposed to 2022/23.

Murph read it so well and was super super defensive.
All about halving the contest.
We didn't launch off his intercepts or efforts...ever.
He just flat out stopped the oppo and killed the contest.
That's it.

Murph read the play so well (which included where our defenders were and when to come off his man).
When he didn't read it and was out of position....he was so stupid with his body to make sure he halved it.
It was really quite insane and doesn't get the credit it should.

We've tried Frampton (has size, doesn't read it well enough) and Dean (Doesn't read it and to slow by foot to recover) in that role.
Neither are the answer.

So...to my point.

From training reports, Reef is appearing as an interceptor.
If so, how does that actually help us?

Adding another attacking defender isn't what we need.
It won't magically make Moore better.
in fact it will make us worse.

So it may well be that Moore needs to curtail his aggressive position in favor of an Andrews style role to allow Reef to execute.
Playing Dean or Frampton will allow Moore to play how he has (albeit it may result in another 2024)

This idea that Reef is "replacing" Murphy/Frampton/Dean (in terms of role) is folly.

It's a different role, (if reports are true), which means it will require others to change their role to accommodate.

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

And from Jen's training report on Friday :

Josh and Jordy completed 80-90% of the session. Josh will be back in full training next week when they return, and I wouldn't be surprised if Jordy is the same.

Just to add a comment to Josh,Nick, jordy & Tom.

Wade has said he’d prefer to break players in training than in games.
With 4 days off and end of Jan, I wonder if today wasn’t a test for them.

4 days to recover.
Getting close to season.
Perfect storm.

Maybe the training today was more about working out how they all recover as opposed to the fact they are all back…..

 

[Jelly Bean]

Think you are a year old in this thinking....but you're not alone.

Just to weigh in on the Murph/ Reef convo....

We just have NO ONE who can play Murph role.
Without that role, Moore is 2024 as opposed to 2022/23.

Murph read it so well and was super super defensive.
All about halving the contest.
We didn't launch off his intercepts or efforts...ever.
He just flat out stopped the oppo and killed the contest.
That's it.

Murph read the play so well (which included where our defenders were and when to come off his man).
When he didn't read it and was out of position....he was so stupid with his body to make sure he halved it.
It was really quite insane and doesn't get the credit it should.

We've tried Frampton (has size, doesn't read it well enough) and Dean (Doesn't read it and to slow by foot to recover) in that role.
Neither are the answer.

So...to my point.

From training reports, Reef is appearing as an interceptor.
If so, how does that actually help us?

Adding another attacking defender isn't what we need.
It won't magically make Moore better.
in fact it will make us worse.

So it may well be that Moore needs to curtail his aggressive position in favor of an Andrews style role to allow Reef to execute.
Playing Dean or Frampton will allow Moore to play how he has (albeit it may result in another 2024)

This idea that Reef is "replacing" Murphy/Frampton/Dean (in terms of role) is folly.

It's a different role, (if reports are true), which means it will require others to change their role to accommodate.

I never actually mentioned Murphy at all, and I agree with you that he's been hard to replace.

My biggest curiosity is whether Reef can be a shut down key back, as that is what we really need him to be. We don't need another interceptor (this year), and we desperately need a shut down tall back. I'm hoping they are trying to get him to play that role

 

[Optimax]

I worry that we are building up Reef like we did Finn last year.

Reef is not, and will not be a key back. He'll be an intercepting flanker and likely, serviceable, but those thinking he'll lock down on key forwards will be as disappointed as those that wanted Finn to play like Tom Mitchell, when in reality he's a less physical Shane O'Bree

 

[TheVillageIdiot7]

I never actually mentioned Murphy at all, and I agree with you that he's been hard to replace.

My biggest curiosity is whether Reef can be a shut down key back, as that is what we really need him to be. We don't need another interceptor (this year), and we desperately need a shut down tall back. I'm hoping they are trying to get him to play that role

100%.

The trick with the “murph” role was reading the play and getting to the contest.
Whether that be third man or rolling up.

Don’t need height or strength.
Just a desire not to lose and ability to read what is happening.

Hence I’m not fussed with him “intercepting and rebounding using his pace”….unless we change roles for others, we don’t need that.