- Banned
- #626
Agree. The demise of the exotics is a great shame, and it's been done so that TAB and corporates can chase the mug dollar through fixed pools.
"Money back if you run 4th!"
Who really gives a ****?
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- Thread starter Angus Young
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Agree. The demise of the exotics is a great shame, and it's been done so that TAB and corporates can chase the mug dollar through fixed pools.
"Money back if you run 4th!"
Who really gives a ****?
I don't think that's true Re a bigger take from fixed odds. If you go through their reports I think their fixed odds is lo w double fidget.
iluvparis
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What is the trend in pool sizes on the exotics on NSW & S-TAB over the last 10 years or so?
That doesnt happen
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I’m not sure if it’s still happening, but they 100% have had that ability in the past.
Where have you heard this? They 100% never got any personal favours to bet or cancel bets after the jump
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Without wanting to go into great detail (it’s a relatively small industry and specific details would be a personal risk on my part), but I’m not talking about placing bets 300m into a race or anything of that sort, but we were given an incredibly small window to finalise bets post official jump time, and with people on course realistically 1 second significantly changes the market at the start. Just another small advantage that big syndicates were able to use (I’ll take peoples here word for it that no deals of that nature are in place any more) that gave them an unbeatable edge. I also can’t stress enough how low/minuscule in the pecking order of the operation I was involved in I was. It was a decent wage but knowing anything about horses wasn’t necessary in the role. With the systems and volume of money involved at that level, it’s just a numbers game.
On a change of topic for anyone looking to get into in-play racing betting and taking on the ‘pros’, I can’t stress enough the importance of being on track if looking to bet with any real volume. It brings such a competitive advantage to those at home on a delayed feed.
Well yeah when markets are closed manually there will be instances when it is left open for a second or so after jump time, but that's not something specifically only available to big syndicates. I would also question whether any sort of real edge could be gained by that split second of information anyway
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Was a slightly different arrangement to that available to other punters, and obviously not done through retail, but similar enough to what you’ve said. These split seconds are plenty of time for some to make a significant advantage if horse do/don’t look to be going to settle to where the market has them mapped.
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I would say post jump tote stabilising is a pretty grey area(rebates themselves are a grey area in other countries). There are higher profile people involved in the industry who have indicated this takes place in the past so I’m not sure it would be big news.
The general rule of tote rebates is it helps out the average losing punter but hurts the winning punter who plays the sharper end of the market. There’s a reason tote divs are returning $1.00 on dogs and trots races in higher numbers year on year. The syndicates back a relatively sure thing and get there rebate on top, completely distorting the pool.
Its not a grey area at all. Letting select customers bet or withdraw from pools after the general population gets locked out would be completely against the law when betting into pari-mutuel pools.
Ive never heard of this happening before and if it was common knowledge the TAB would be in very hot water
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I can only speak from experience from 10+ years ago but it certainly did happen. Also I shouldn’t have said withdrawn from the pool, rather manoeuvred on rare occasions.
I couldn’t say it was an edge exclusive to syndicates, just one that only they could take true advantage of. Betting at the track gives a 2-5 second edge to those watching on sky at the pub/at home. Races generally close in line with the sky feed. Tabcorp/Tatts need retail to be able to bet until ‘gates open’. A syndicate with current tote divs/pools at that moment, with a knowledge of what’s happened in reality in those 2 seconds of lag, using the software they use can do a fair bit of manipulating/stabilising to the pools, particularly outside of metro racing.
You did say it was a different arrangement to other punters before though. So it is basically what i said before with pools often closing manually a second or two after jump time? Something that anyone can theoretically try to take advantage of?
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You are correct and I take back my previous statement, although there are only a handful of people/syndicates in the country capable of taking true advantage of this edge on the tote. Most pros on track use the edge to their advantage on betfair instead.
The arrangement referred to the fact that Tabcorp/Tatts could close the accounts involved in this if it was used to the detriment of their business. So instead of tote manipulation it’s ‘tote stabilisation’. Corporates close the accounts of people who try and use this same edge on fixed odds pretty quickly. Once again my fault for poorly wording/using the wrong terms.
Yeah that makes more sense and I don't think is an issue assuming it's the same lockout time for all. Taking advantage by being on course is different to having your own lockout delay.
I bet a fair bit in play and BF goes in-play 1-2 seconds before the sky feed jumps. I've always wondered how BF know that the race has gone in play before the sky feed, not sure whether they have someone at every track or if their in-play timeline is also delayed from the actual jump. The delay for UK races is much longer (5-6 sec) and it's not viable to bet in-play from the sky feed, giving away too much to those on course or even at home in the UK with a quicker feed.
With decent software and internet speed you can make coin without being on course but it's a massive edge if you can be there. Trotters galloping, hurdlers falling. horses missing the kick or getting badly checked in the run.
I bet a fair bit in play and BF goes in-play 1-2 seconds before the sky feed jumps. I've always wondered how BF know that the race has gone in play before the sky feed, not sure whether they have someone at every track or if their in-play timeline is also delayed from the actual jump. The delay for UK races is much longer (5-6 sec) and it's not viable to bet in-play from the sky feed, giving away too much to those on course or even at home in the UK with a quicker feed.
With decent software and internet speed you can make coin without being on course but it's a massive edge if you can be there. Trotters galloping, hurdlers falling. horses missing the kick or getting badly checked in the run.
Sabbathen
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That same edge is applicable for any sport really, it's not unique to horse racing.
Have a look at how in-play markets react in a T20 cricket game for example, massive swings every boundary or wicket and even on the coin toss. Then consider how many times a wicket or boundary occurs over the course of a 2 hour match. That's a lot of opportunities over a short period of time and the liquidity is huge.
Not including syndicates, i'm sure there are plenty of people in this country who have a way around Betfair's in-play restrictions making very easy money trading on live sports.
Have a look at how in-play markets react in a T20 cricket game for example, massive swings every boundary or wicket and even on the coin toss. Then consider how many times a wicket or boundary occurs over the course of a 2 hour match. That's a lot of opportunities over a short period of time and the liquidity is huge.
Not including syndicates, i'm sure there are plenty of people in this country who have a way around Betfair's in-play restrictions making very easy money trading on live sports.
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- #644
Bottom feeders.
There's a few decisions to be made on options which walk or cross the line regarding legislation or corp T&C guidelines. Use of bowlers, VPNs, overseas bookies etc. Not my cup of tea but I understand why others head down that path.
Other than that absolutely, do whatever it takes and use whatever edge is available to make coin. The biggest challenge is long term sustainability. Anyone can make a quick buck using arbing or matched betting but when that's dead and accounts are limited in 6 mths how do you stay profitable. Then it's evolving with changes in the market, legislation etc.
Radio is a couple of seconds ahead of sky. Races will start on the radio and for about a second the market will typically still be pre-race on Betfair.
Crazy if true
