Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[sherb]

and again, the issue of the AFL as a competition, contradicting its role as Custodian of the Game.
Not your fault, not mine, just a competition self-serving it’s own agenda (and by their silence, you know they tacitly support this “crusade“) as it further promotes its comp at the expense of the game’s history.

Yes. I've long argued that those two roles need to be split.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Which is exactly how Geelong's official website lists it. Though I find it funny that they can't even bother to name the years they won it prior to !925, let alone add any historical context to it.

Geelong - News, Fixtures, Scores & Results - geelongcats.com.au

Geelong Football Club. All the latest news, video, results and information

www.geelongcats.com.au

I understand that third parties run some of these websites. It's part of the reason list updates take too long.

Opportunity missed IMO.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yes. I've long argued that those two roles need to be split.

Same. Needs to be a clear delineation. The AFL competition have hijacked the game itself. They have disrespected a heap of competitions in doing so.

 

[sherb]

Same. Needs to be a clear delineation. The AFL competition have hijacked the game itself. They have disrespected a heap of competitions in doing so.

And we are in the perfect thread to highlight one of the areas that the self-appointed "custodian of the game" fails spectacularly - the game's history.

The AFL pays lip service to researching and recording the history of the game. It's really only interested in the history of the AFL competition - and even that is minimal. Look at the paucity of historical information on the AFL website for instance.

The same here in NSW. The history of the game here is not of interest to the AFL in Sydney, the only reason it has been researched so extensively is because of an outside organization formed by a group of like minded individuals -

NSW Australian Football History Society Inc

If the AFL was fulfilling its role as "custodian of the game", it would be serious about its commitment to the history of the game itself - not just the AFL competition. I believe the AFL should be setting aside a considerable amount of money each year to fund a History and Research department - with a view to recording the game as extensively as cricket does for argument's sake. Have the main department in Melbourne and have a research officer or two in each capital city.

Cricket is an interesting comparison. It is well known that the history of cricket is well researched and recorded - via two principal statistical websites - cricinfo and Cricket Archive (the latter is subscription only unfortunately, but as a subscriber I can tell you it is fantastic) - plus plenty of other websites and thousands of written publications (annuals, magazines, biographies/autobiographies tour books, history books, etc, etc) , the best known of course being Wisden, which has been an institution since 1864.

Now - the cricket administration itself is not responsible for all this recording, it has all been done via outside parties (cricinfo for instance is Indian I believe). But cricket is different to our game. It has historically lent itself to heavy recording and statistical analysis, plus it is played across various countries - as a result, there would be hundreds, if not thousands, currently contributing to the game historically and statistically. Australian Football just doesn't compare - there is a comparative handful of people attending to the history of the game.

Because the recording of Australian Football is so scattered, this is why the "Custodian of the Game" needs to take control - ie consolidate what is known already and research what isn't. But it won't and it doesn't - I won't say because it doesn't care, it may do, but at the very least it is because it is of little priority to them.

 

[sherb]

Same. Needs to be a clear delineation. The AFL competition have hijacked the game itself. They have disrespected a heap of competitions in doing so.

Just further on this.

I went to a meeting involving Sydney AFL clubs and the AFL NSW/ACT admin in the late 90s/early 2000s. This was still in the "infancy" days of the AFL in Melbourne pumping millions into footy in NSW.

It was made very clear in that meeting that the AFL was funding the game here for two - and only two - reasons. One was to generate consumers of AFL competition product (eg merch, TV viewers, AFL club members, etc). The other was to develop talent for the AFL competition via junior development.

No mention of improving the health of the game overall in NSW at grassroots level.

That's when I realized that the AFL organization is principally (if not exclusively) there for the AFL competition and not for the game itself - despite its "custodian of the game" role.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Just further on this.

I went to a meeting involving Sydney AFL clubs and the AFL NSW/ACT admin in the late 90s/early 2000s. This was still in the "infancy" days of the AFL in Melbourne pumping millions into footy in NSW.

It was made very clear in that meeting that the AFL was funding the game here for two - and only two - reasons. One was to generate consumers of AFL competition product (eg merch, TV viewers, AFL club members, etc). The other was to develop talent for the AFL competition via junior development.

No mention of improving the health of the game overall in NSW at grassroots level.

That's when I realized that the AFL organization is principally (if not exclusively) there for the AFL competition and not for the game itself - despite its "custodian of the game" role.

At one stage there was an amateur body called the International Australian Football Council to govern our game. However AFL used its $$ to crush it and have it dissolved and became the sole governing body of our game worldwide.

International Australian Football Council - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[sherb]

At one stage there was an amateur body called the International Australian Football Council to govern our game. However AFL used its $$ to crush it and have it dissolved and became the sole governing body of our game worldwide.

International Australian Football Council - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The ANFC had the same role in Australia, that was gobbled up by the AFL as well.

Australian National Football Council - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The ANFC had the same role in Australia, that was gobbled up by the AFL as well.

Australian National Football Council - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just like VFA and all other domestic and international Australian Rules organisations have to bend their knees to the AFL?

 

[big_e]

Cricket is an interesting comparison. It is well known that the history of cricket is well researched and recorded - via two principal statistical websites - cricinfo and Cricket Archive (the latter is subscription only unfortunately, but as a subscriber I can tell you it is fantastic) - plus plenty of other websites and thousands of written publications (annuals, magazines, biographies/autobiographies tour books, history books, etc, etc) , the best known of course being Wisden, which has been an institution since 1864.

Now - the cricket administration itself is not responsible for all this recording, it has all been done via outside parties (cricinfo for instance is Indian I believe). But cricket is different to our game. It has historically lent itself to heavy recording and statistical analysis, plus it is played across various countries - as a result, there would be hundreds, if not thousands, currently contributing to the game historically and statistically. Australian Football just doesn't compare - there is a comparative handful of people attending to the history of the game.

FWIW - Cricinfo was originally started by an English guy living in the USA, was sold to Wisden, then subsequently sold to ESPN. Which means it's part of the Disney group.

 

[NetworkNerd]

Leaders are
Hawthorn have 5 AFL Flags
Collingwood/Essendon/Carlton have 16 VFL/AFL Flags
Carlton have 22 VFA/VFL/AFL flags

If we want to include AFLW/preseason then just add it to the above lists

 

[sherb]

FWIW - Cricinfo was originally started by an English guy living in the USA, was sold to Wisden, then subsequently sold to ESPN. Which means it's part of the Disney group.

Yes, I was only going off the top of my head.

My point was that it is external to the game's administration.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Leaders are
Hawthorn have 5 AFL Flags
Collingwood/Essendon/Carlton have 16 VFL/AFL Flags
Carlton have 22 VFA/VFL/AFL flags

If we want to include AFLW/preseason then just add it to the above lists

This method suggests that VFL and AFL are just as separate to each other as VFA are. That's incorrect.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

This method suggests that VFL and AFL are just as separate to each other as VFA are. That's incorrect.

Isn’t the VFA now the VFL, with the 1897 old VFL now the AFL?

 

[sherb]

Just like VFA and all other domestic and international Australian Rules organisations have to bend their knees to the AFL?

Yep, the AFL has become an all-powerful monster, whose "custodian of the game" responsibilities run a distant second to the commercial interests of the AFL competition itself.

Now, there is nothing wrong with the AFL maximising the commercial gains of the AFL competition, as that money funds game development - but when those commercial interests relegate the interests of the game itself to a secondary status (for instance as I have highlighted with the game's history), then there is a problem.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Yep, the AFL has become an all-powerful monster, whose "custodian of the game" responsibilities run a distant second to the commercial interests of the AFL competition itself.

Now, there is nothing wrong with the AFL maximising the commercial gains of the AFL competition, as that money funds game development - but when those commercial interests relegate the interests of the game itself to a secondary status (for instance as I have highlighted with the game's history), then there is a problem.

But as effectively the sole Custodian of the Game, the AFL has the power to easily decide and enforce how it counts “official” premierships? ICC in cricket and FIFA in soccer have extensive domestic stakeholders, some of which are almost equally as powerful (for example UEFA in soccer and India in cricket), and have to extensively negotiate on what is counted in official records.

 

[Father Jack]

This method suggests that VFL and AFL are just as separate to each other as VFA are. That's incorrect.

Maybe not, but they are still different enough that counting VFL flags alongside AFL ones is largely pointless.

 

[big_e]

Maybe not, but they are still different enough that counting VFL flags alongside AFL ones is largely pointless.

The Eagles joined the VFL, and three years later, the name of the competition changed.

Counting VFL and AFL premierships together makes perfect sense because it's the same competition.

Nobody would argue Spurs don't get to count their first FA Cup win because there are more teams in it now.

 

[Father Jack]

The Eagles joined the VFL, and three years later, the name of the competition changed.

Counting VFL and AFL premierships together makes perfect sense because it's the same competition.

Nobody would argue Spurs don't get to count their first FA Cup win because there are more teams in it now.

The AFL is not remotely the same competition as the VFL, the comp has changed markedly and 1990 is as good enough a year to separate it as any, if for no the reason than the name of the comp changed and it was around the middle of the time when it changed the most.

Saying that the comp today is even remotely the same as it was in 1980 is silly, which you can't say about the FA Cup.

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

The AFL is not remotely the same competition as the VFL, the comp has changed markedly and 1990 is as good enough a year to separate it as any, if for no the reason than the name of the comp changed and it was around the middle of the time when it changed the most.

Saying that the comp today is even remotely the same as it was in 1980 is silly, which you can't say about the FA Cup.

This makes no sense...

In 1908 two new clubs came in and in 1925 three; 1916 is around the middle of the time when it changed the most as a % of new clubs added to the league, so I propose we start from the famous 1916 season.

 

[kickazz]

The AFL is not remotely the same competition as the VFL,

Well it is and it isn't I suppose, depending on semantics and one's interpretation of the word 'same'.

When a woman (or man for that matter) changes their name upon getting married - are they still the same person? Of course.

After a few decades are they they same person they were when they got married? Well, technically yes, but in another sense, no. When counting how many times they did x, they are the same person though.

 

[Father Jack]

This makes no sense...

In 1908 two new clubs came in and in 1925 three; 1916 is around the middle of the time when it changed the most as a % of new clubs added to the league, so I propose we start from the famous 1916 season.

You mean when a suburban comp added some more suburban teams and didn't have all the best players nationwide playing in it (yes they had most, but not all) as opposed to when a suburban comp added teams from all around the country and did end up having all the best players nationwide playing in it? You think that was essentially the same level of change?

 

[Father Jack]

Well it is and it isn't I suppose, depending on semantics and one's interpretation of the word 'same'.

When a woman (or man for that matter) changes their name upon getting married - are they still the same person? Of course.

After a few decades are they they same person they were when they got married? Well, technically yes, but in another sense, no. When counting how many times they did x, they are the same person though.

That wasn't my point, my point was that the name change came at around the mid point of when most of the change took place as the suburban competition became national, making it a good place to start demarcate the old era from the new.

 

[Seeds]

It's 17 a piece between Collingwood and Geelong when competing in the same league together. It's not 17 a piece in the VFL/AFL.

Its 17 a piece when competing in the best competition in the country.

 

[big_e]

The AFL is not remotely the same competition as the VFL, the comp has changed markedly and 1990 is as good enough a year to separate it as any, if for no the reason than the name of the comp changed and it was around the middle of the time when it changed the most.

Saying that the comp today is even remotely the same as it was in 1980 is silly, which you can't say about the FA Cup.

You mean when a suburban comp added some more suburban teams and didn't have all the best players nationwide playing in it (yes they had most, but not all) as opposed to when a suburban comp added teams from all around the country and did end up having all the best players nationwide playing in it? You think that was essentially the same level of change?

I mean, the FA Cup has gone from a competition featuring predominantly amateur players from only England to featuring highly-paid professionals from all over the world. How is that not different to the change you describe between the VFL and AFL?

 

[Muddiemoose]

Cbf looking it up
Does my club benefit from it?

If it does i absolutely endorse the move but if it doesn’t I think its a terrible idea