Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[adammania9]

View attachment 2019000
As Col so eloquently states, the official Premiership tallies in the VFL included VFA flags as well, up until some time in the 1930s/40s, when the historical revisionists came along and removed them.

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

 

[Engimal v3]

Maybe not, but they are still different enough that counting VFL flags alongside AFL ones is largely pointless.

Not at all. It's really quite simple: The VFL IS the AFL - neither of which are the VFA competition that Colin Carter suggests we should be including premierships from.

The VFL/AFL was a breakaway competition from the VFA.

 

[terrybull]

You mean when a suburban comp added some more suburban teams and didn't have all the best players nationwide playing in it (yes they had most, but not all) as opposed to when a suburban comp added teams from all around the country and did end up having all the best players nationwide playing in it? You think that was essentially the same level of change?

I don’t know why we are still arguing this?

The correct answer is that of the AFL sees it. And at the moment it’s 1897.
They may next year change it to 1991 when Adelaide joined, they may say they were called VFA from 1877-1896, or because of all the rule changes that it’s not the same sport and make the start year 2005.

Bit it’s what’s the official stats from the AFL that counts. Historically correct or not.

All others is just opinions, and we all have different opinions.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Maybe not, but they are still different enough that counting VFL flags alongside AFL ones is largely pointless.

Maybe we should rule a new line and restart it after Tasmania join too? Since 1990, Adelaide, Fremantle, Port, Gold Coast, GWS and Tasmania would have joined, and Fitzroy and Brisbane merged.

I mean, that's pretty different ... right?

Telstra have been around since 1901, under various names. They were government owned and later privatised. Funnily enough, they are proud of their history and longevity.

Any other continuous sporting competition you can think of will include their entire history, despite numerous changes to their rules, teams and levels of professionalism.

The NRL count premiers back to 1908. Theirs is a more compelling case than ours in fact, as the NSWRL and Super League started the NRL as a reconciliation agreement after a 1 season split and new teams being formed to fill Super League. Yet the NRL history counts all premierships back to the start of the NSWRL, including 2 premiers in the one season in the separate competitions.

Seems they don't have the cultural cringe that so many AFL followers have towards the competitions roots.

 

[terrybull]

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

View attachment 2019533

And if you include the Premierships then you need to include everything else. Matches played, results, clubs like West Melbourne, Albert Park and many others were a part of the now called AFL.

So instead of having only three clubs that are no longer in the AFL you need to add a whole lot more.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Isn’t the VFA now the VFL, with the 1897 old VFL now the AFL?

Yes, the VFA are now the VFL, but are not a continuation of the old VFL. That's simply a name change, not a continuation. They adopted the VFL name the AFL changed from. For example, Port Melbourne are a VFL team, but were never a VFL/AFL team. Their continuous flag history in their competition is VFA/VFL and their is a clearly defined gap between the VFL changing their name to AFL, and the VFA changing their name to VFL.

 

[terrybull]

Yes, the VFA are now the VFL, but are not a continuation of the old VFL. That's simply a name change, not a continuation. They adopted the VFL name the AFL changed from. For example, Port Melbourne are a VFL team, but were never a VFL/AFL team. Their continuous flag history in their competition is VFA/VFL and their is a clearly defined gap between the VFL changing their name to AFL, and the VFA changing their name to VFL.

It’s such a mess.

See no reason for the name change back then, but would make more sense now with the Northern States coming in.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I don’t know why we are still arguing this?

The correct answer is that of the AFL sees it. And at the moment it’s 1897.
They may next year change it to 1991 when Adelaide joined, they may say they were called VFA from 1877-1896, or because of all the rule changes that it’s not the same sport and make the start year 2005.

Bit it’s what’s the official stats from the AFL that counts. Historically correct or not.

All others is just opinions, and we all have different opinions.

Agree, and as the AFL is also the Custodian of the Game, its views on which premierships should be officially included is authoritative? My understanding is that currently the premierships that are “official” are only those from the 1897 VFL which changed its name to the AFL in 1991?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It’s such a mess.

See no reason for the name change back then, but would make more sense now with the Northern States coming in.

It should just be AFL reserves and let the VFA clubs go back to being the VFA.

 

[Professor Knowall]

I don’t know why we are still arguing this?

The correct answer is that of the AFL sees it. And at the moment it’s 1897.
They may next year change it to 1991 when Adelaide joined, they may say they were called VFA from 1877 …

The VFL started in 1897, not before, not after - so 1897 is the only factually correct answer for when to count Premierships in this league.

The VFL were never called the VFA - the VFA was an entirely separate organisation from which a bunch of clubs broke away from after the end of the 1896 season to form the VFL as a brand new league (which later named themselves the AFL in 1990, but have otherwise continued, adding new clubs over the years since 1925 when 3 more defected from the rival VFA).

Thus, Premierships for the rival VFA organisation can’t possibly be included as VFL/AFL premierships..

 

[Sentinel]

Its 17 a piece when competing in the best competition in the country.

Sure (assuming you can say that about pre 1897 VFA and the VFL/AFL from 1897 onwards).

Still doesn't change the record books. The premiership list is not 'premiers of the best competition in the country at that time', it's the 'premiers of the VFL/AFL competition'.

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

View attachment 2019533

In the video posted on the previous page with Colin Carter talking, he mentions the earlier premierships should be included because in 1883 all of the clubs in the competition were VFL clubs anyway (ladder below, Hotham being the original name of North). Funny how he didn't talk about 1878 when West Melbourne and Albert Park were competing, amongst many other years with other clubs. Totally not misrepresenting the reality.

 

[Seeds]

Sure (assuming you can say that about pre 1897 VFA and the VFL/AFL from 1897 onwards).

Still doesn't change the record books. The premiership list is not 'premiers of the best competition in the country at that time', it's the 'premiers of the VFL/AFL competition'.

But what actually matters is premiers of the best competition in the country and anyone who does a list of that will find those pre 1896 flags are on there.

 

[Seeds]

In the video posted on the previous page with Colin Carter talking, he mentions the earlier premierships should be included because in 1883 all of the clubs in the competition were VFL clubs anyway (ladder below, Hotham being the original name of North). Funny how he didn't talk about 1878 when West Melbourne and Albert Park were competing, amongst many other years with other clubs. Totally not misrepresenting the reality.

View attachment 2019596

Doesnt that make his point even stronger though? Even more teams to compete against for the flag

 

[Professor Knowall]

But what actually matters is premiers of the best competition in the country and anyone who does a list of that will find those pre 1896 flags are on there.

Who says what actually matters?

And given that both South Australia (SANFL) and Tasmania beat Victoria (VFA) twice each in the 1890’s, one could debate what was the best competition in the country for at least a few of those years in the 1890’s.

Ultimately, only VFL/AFL premiers are what can actually matter for VFL/AFL records.

 

[Engimal v3]

Agree, and as the AFL is also the Custodian of the Game, its views on which premierships should be officially included is authoritative? My understanding is that currently the premierships that are “official” are only those from the 1897 VFL which changed its name to the AFL in 1991?

It's not even a matter of opinion; the VFL and the AFL are the same thing. It's no more complex than that.

 

[Sentinel]

But what actually matters is premiers of the best competition in the country and anyone who does a list of that will find those pre 1896 flags are on there.

Who says that's what actually matters? You're welcome to make up a list but it doesn't belong in the official VFL/AFL records because its a different thing.

What matters when discussing the history of a competition is that the record books accurately reflect what happened in that particular competition.

 

[HairyO]

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

View attachment 2019533

That's ****ing ridiculous. Play 4 games and win a flag. Yeah, we for sure should consider these equal...

 

[NetworkNerd]

Its 17 a piece when competing in the best competition in the country.

But 10 years ago you only counted AFL flags. Why change now?

 

[Sentinel]

That's ****ing ridiculous. Play 4 games and win a flag. Yeah, we for sure should consider these equal...

They played 4 against 'Senior' sides (Hotham/North Melbourne, Melbourne, West Melbourne, Carlton). But don't forget the other 13 games including against Geelong Schools (a junior side?), 3 against Barwon (another local Geelong based side), Chilwell (another Geelong side) Warrigal (NSW), North Adelaide and Ballarat - on their way to qualifying top 2 and the Grand Final. As Colin Carter suggests, the VFA in those days was basically full of the same sides as the VFL/AFL

1878 Geelong Football Club season - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's quite funny watching Geelong supporters (on their lonesome) try to argue in favour of this lunacy.

 

[Mibie]

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

View attachment 2019533

Saints have been shit for even longer than I thought….

 

[MelbourneGWS]

They played 4 against 'Senior' sides (Hotham/North Melbourne, Melbourne, West Melbourne, Carlton). But don't forget the other 13 games including against Geelong Schools (a junior side?), 3 against Barwon (another local Geelong based side), Chilwell (another Geelong side) Warrigal (NSW), North Adelaide and Ballarat - on their way to qualifying top 2 and the Grand Final. As Colin Carter suggests, the VFA in those days was basically full of the same sides as the VFL/AFL

1878 Geelong Football Club season - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's quite funny watching Geelong supporters (on their lonesome) try to argue in favour of this lunacy.

Won’t Carlton and Sydney also benefit from the addition of flags from 1870-1896 VFA to the VFL/AFL flags?

• Carlton become the “most successful” premiership club in history, as they go from 16 to 22? Currently they are equal with Essendon and Collingwood with 16 VFL/AFL premierships
• Swans effectively double their premiership tally to 10

 

[The Tilt]

I don’t know why we are still arguing this?

The correct answer is that of the AFL sees it. And at the moment it’s 1897.
They may next year change it to 1991 when Adelaide joined, they may say they were called VFA from 1877-1896, or because of all the rule changes that it’s not the same sport and make the start year 2005.

Bit it’s what’s the official stats from the AFL that counts. Historically correct or not.

All others is just opinions, and we all have different opinions.

Ah, no. It's what's historically correct that counts. If the AFL came out and said "Actually, the competition currently known as the AFL was formed in 1990", then they'd be saying something that's demonstrably false.

 

[beerbandit]

Collingwood finally draw level on 16 Flags and Nek minute there’s a proposal!

Oh the irony !

 

[The Tilt]

Yeah lets count flags won in years where ladders looked like this

View attachment 2019533

Sure, but that's not the reason pre-1897 premierships shouldn't be counted as VFL/AFL premierships. They shouldn't be counted because.... they weren't won in the VFL/AFL!

Fitzroy's 1916 premiership is at least as farcical. Still counts though. Well played, Roys.