Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[Profop]

Imagine the opinions of the media being lauded as the correct way to decide who won the flag

The selection criteria for the ‘premierships’ back then is more than enough reason to exclude them let alone the fact it was a totally different league

I don’t want 1870’s Kane Cornes effecting AFL history

 

[Happy_Neale]

So do we add the night competition/pre-season titles as well??...which takes Hawthorn into the 20's.

Might as well add AFLX while we’re at it. Actually might not be a bad idea…

 

[Nebular]

Does such a thought bring out your insecurities? Why would you care otherwise?

Oh, the irony!

 

[Wargreymon90]

Surely the AFL is old enough now to only count AFL flags.

Geelong, Hawthorn, West Coast are the most successful clubs imo

 

[Sttew]

Dumb idea. Most of those "premierships" happened when the competition was entirely amateur.

Premierships should really only be counted from 1990 onwards, and even then I am not sure as the game was not really professional then either since a lot of players needed second jobs to make a living.

A premiership in 1934 where every player trained once a week and got drunk before the games is hardly worth the same as a modern professional premiership.

To be fair, premierships should be categorised:
1. Pre VFL
2. VFL
3. AFL

 

[Nebular]

Imagine the opinions of the media being lauded as the correct way to decide who won the flag

The selection criteria for the ‘premierships’ back then is more than enough reason to exclude them let alone the fact it was a totally different league

I don’t want 1870’s Kane Cornes effecting AFL history

We should go back to the old ways.

No finals, just Kane and Robbo deciding who was the best each year.

 

[Underarm]

1. Before the VFL, behinds weren't included as part of the score.
2. Premierships used to be decided by newspapers - how would you feel about Robbo picking the next premier?

 

[Sttew]

1. Before the VFL, behinds weren't included as part of the score.
2. Premierships used to be decided by newspapers - how would you feel about Robbo picking the next premier?

How many VFL premierships weren't decided by a grand final?

If we were serious about a level playing field, then only post McIntyre Final Eight System premierships should be considered

 

[thejester]

I haven't read his book, so he maybe discusses it there, but has Carter ever explained why he thinks having these things recognised by the AFL is so crucial? Geelong have 17 senior flags; Port Adelaide have 37. Those basic numbers, and the fact they were won under different systems within different competitions, all remain true regardless of what the AFL puts in its record books.

 

[freddy mercury]

St.Kilda would still have one, lol.

 

[Sttew]

No one is denying individual clubs their own history of winning premierships since their own foundation. Geelong has won 17 premierships in their existence, good for them.

The fact that someone (a former Geelong president with new 7 flags up his sleeve, of course) now wants to include in VFL/AFL league records premierships which were won in an entirely different league, is what is laughably up for debate.

Essendon rightfully counts the 1897 "premiership" as one of theirs, yet there was no Grand Final. How fair is/was that?

In 1924 Essendon was again declared "premiers" after an experimental round robin system played out, but there was no grand final. How fair was that? This system lasted one year.

The point is nobody questions those "premierships" and nor should they, but consider the following:

"The vagaries of history have meant that Geelong’s feat of winning seven senior VFA premierships during the period when the ‘Association’ was the controlling body of the premier competition in Victoria, has essentially been lost to the official record, and to historical consciousness."

Australian Football - rethinking the historical record

australianfootball.com

 

[Sentinel]

Essendon rightfully counts the 1897 "premiership" as one of theirs, yet there was no Grand Final. How fair is/was that?

In 1924 Essendon was again declared "premiers" after an experimental round robin system played out, but there was no grand final. How fair was that? This system lasted one year.

The point is nobody questions those "premierships" and nor should they, but consider the following:

"The vagaries of history have meant that Geelong’s feat of winning seven senior VFA premierships during the period when the ‘Association’ was the controlling body of the premier competition in Victoria, has essentially been lost to the official record, and to historical consciousness."

Australian Football - rethinking the historical record

australianfootball.com

Nobody questions those premierships because they were still part of the same league, even if it was operating under different rules (as per almost every year in the league's history where rules have been modified as the game evolves). The topic of "fairness" is subjective and irrelevant.

Geelong's feat of winning 7 senior VFA flags has not been "lost to the official record", it still exists in the club's history books and also in the VFA/VFL record where it belongs, because that is exactly where the flags were won. It does not belong in the record of a completely separate league, which was brought upon by clubs including Geelong seceding from the VFA. If a clean uninterrupted record was so very important, maybe those clubs shouldn't have seceded in the first place?

 

[Sttew]

Nobody questions those premierships because they were still part of the same league, even if it was operating under different rules (as per almost every year in the league's history where rules have been modified as the game evolves). The topic of "fairness" is subjective and irrelevant.

Geelong's feat of winning 7 senior VFA flags has not been "lost to the official record", it still exists in the club's history books and also in the VFA/VFL record where it belongs, because that is exactly where the flags were won. It does not belong in the record of a completely separate league, which was brought upon by clubs including Geelong seceding from the VFA. If a clean uninterrupted record was so very important, maybe those clubs shouldn't have seceded in the first place?

Sure, and that's why in an earlier post I suggested official records show:

1. Pre VFL
2. VFL
3. AFL

I know VFA premierships were a different beast. But I also know it is disingenuous comparing early VFL premierships (e.g., 1897 and 1924 and I'm sure there were plenty others) with AFL premierships for so many reasons, hence they should be separated, IMO

 

[freddy mercury]

Do we take away the one carlton won the year they got done with salary cap breaching?

 

[Arr0w]

Do we take away the one carlton won the year they got done with salary cap breaching?

Think you mean Essendon's 1993 breach

 

[Sentinel]

Sure, and that's why in an earlier post I suggested official records show:

1. Pre VFL
2. VFL
3. AFL

I know VFA premierships were a different beast. But I also know it is disingenuous comparing early VFL premierships (e.g., 1897 and 1924 and I'm sure there were plenty others) with AFL premierships for so many reasons, hence they should be separated, IMO

You are suggesting exactly what club records rightly show, but that's not the point.

If you read the article in the OP, this thread is about rewriting/falsifying history to move the start date of the VFL/AFL to 1870, rather than its actual start date of 1897, and amending league records to include pre-1897 premierships. The VFL/AFL is its own entity, separate from the other league which exist beforehand and continues to exist. The official records being discussed for amendment are those of the VFL/AFL, not of general 'top flight Australian Football' records or something along those lines.

The point about splitting up AFL and VFL records is another debate entirely. The major change from 1989 to 1990 was the name change, the league otherwise carried on it exactly the same form from one year to the next (albeit with a new CBA), there were no new teams, the competition didn't abruptly change into a national competition in any way other than by name. Completely different to what happened from 1896 to 1897.

 

[smasha]

Do we take away the one carlton won the year they got done with salary cap breaching?

Pies won flags having a second go.

Richmond got voted out of being a foundation club,even back then everyone played political games like Col against us.

#weareeveryonesgrandfinal

 

[Underarm]

How many VFL premierships weren't decided by a grand final?

If we were serious about a level playing field, then only post McIntyre Final Eight System premierships should be considered

2. Both by Essendon.

 

[QuietB]

An under 16's team would beat both the 1909 Carlton and South Melbourne sides. I mean the skills are awful.

3.07 is a young Joel Selwood.

I think the more important question is should wearing a bowler hat be reinstated as a a condition of entry to watch the footy?

 

[STPer18]

Geelong are number three on the all-time leaderboard. What a thrill.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Dumb idea. Most of those "premierships" happened when the competition was entirely amateur.

Premierships should really only be counted from 1990 onwards, and even then I am not sure as the game was not really professional then either since a lot of players needed second jobs to make a living.

A premiership in 1934 where every player trained once a week and got drunk before the games is hardly worth the same as a modern professional premiership.

I guess we should also erase all the VFL premierships then? Since it was also amateurs who had day jobs

 

[LordLucifer]

It’s ridiculous.

Why is it so difficult to just divide the premierships up per comp.

Eg
Collingwood 1 VFA, 13 VFL, 2 AFL

100% agree.

 

[LordLucifer]

Do we take away the one carlton won the year they got done with salary cap breaching?

Are you sure you want to open that closet ????

 

[maskmcgee]

Who cares, nobody alive or even who died in the last 70 years would of been able to remember anything about any of them.

 

[Purple Suit]

1870 to 1989 as ‘VFL/VFA Premierships’ and then count the premierships won in the national competition (1990 onwards), as a separate achievement.

Keeps all those state based flags together - hell we can even include Port’s ones - and focus

Glad you agree, Fremantle just got awarded 10 WAFA flags from 1887-98.