Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[Zevon]

This was an interesting thread with genuine discussion until yet another boring trollfest between the same old Richmond and Geelong supporters broke out.

If you’re wondering why your posts have been deleted, it’s because the rest of us don’t give a you-know-what about your silly squabbles.

If you really must pointlessly troll each other, take it to PM (preferred) or the divvy section of the bay. The main board isn’t the place for it.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Colin Carter wants Premierships from 1870 onwards to count… this might provide a little perspective on what’s being suggested:

Pre-VFA - a local metro competition:

1870: 5 teams in the comp including Hobson’s Bay Railway. Melbourne were Premiers as they had a better H2H record against 3rd placed Carlton than Albert Park did..(Melb and Albert park were 2-2 during the season)

One of the games Albert Park had a goal that was annulled as a head count showed they had 22 on the field, not 20.

1871: 3 teams in the league. Yes, 3.

1877 : VFA formed. 5 teams who all played a different number of games. Carlton played 21 and won 14. Melbourne played 23 and won 16. Carlton were awarded Premiership due to a better H2H record v Melbourne.

During this era up until 1887 there was NO OFFICIAL SYSTEM FOR DECIDING THE PREMIER. It was by consensus decision based on number of losses or head to head etc… a decision made by

There was no standardise fixture of matches and teams didn’t play the same number of games.

1888: first time there was an actual ‘ladder’ where the top team was awarded the Premiership. , and the Premier wasn’t decided by random ‘consensus’.

1897: 8 teams LEFT the VFA to compete in a newly formed VFL. The existing VFA REMAINED IN PLACE. Port Melbourne won the 1897 VFA Premiership. Footscray won the 1898-1900 VFA flags … a threepeat!

So how can for example Geelong have 7 x VFA flags recognised in the VFA list of Premiers AND the VFL list? It makes no sense.

Carlton won 4 x flags from 1870 to 1876 … this is BEFORE the formation of the VFA as part of a metro comp often with 3-4 teams competing. There was no official schedule … it was almost like playing with mates in the park.

As a comparison, the EPL was formed in 1992, with all 22 clubs from First Division. Due to the restructure and name change the EPL premiers list started afresh in 1992…. it was the SAME teams that all came across yet their titles didn’t.

But we want to recognise Premierships won in a different competition that remained after teams broke away. And from a competition where for a while the Premier was decided by some random consensus and not even a ladder…

Imagine this … Carlton, Geelong, Eagles, Richmond, Collingwood and Essendon break away from the AFL to form the ‘Super League’. 10 x teams remain in the AFL. Do we honestly think each of those 6 teams that broke away would start with their Premierships? Ie. Carlton has 16 x ‘Super League’ Premierships, Richmond has 13 and so on …..

I can’t believe this idea has gotten even this much oxygen. Ridiculous when you research it properly.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Juddernaut08]

If the VFA had ended at the same time, there may be a stronger argument.

The fact that the VFA continued after 8 clubs broke off makes it a bit nonsensical to try and say they were all one and the same comp.

 

[Sttew]

During this era up until 1887 there was NO OFFICIAL SYSTEM FOR DECIDING THE PREMIER. It was by consensus decision based on number of losses or head to head etc… a decision made by

And yet those premierships supposedly carry as much weight as AFL premierships played under the final eight system

1897: 8 teams LEFT the VFA to compete in a newly formed VFL. The existing VFA REMAINED IN PLACE. Port Melbourne won the 1897 VFA Premiership. Footscray won the 1898-1900 VFA flags … a threepeat!

So how can for example Geelong have 7 x VFA flags recognised in the VFA list of Premiers AND the VFL list? It makes no sense.

Until 1897 the VFA was THE peak / controlling / premier Australian Rules competition in Victoria. After 1987 it was relegated to next level because the 8 strongest teams from the VFA broke away to form what was now the peak / controlling / premier competition.

I don't argue the VFL/AFL should have a new start date going back to the 1860's or whatever year it was, but given how the competition evolved there should be official recognition of the three layers of premierships - VFA pre 1987; VFL; and AFL

 

[Hoops]

I think clubs should include their VFA premierships even if earnt after the breakaway. I have no problem with Port including their SANFL premierships up to 1996 either

 

[PhatBoy]

Dumb idea. Most of those "premierships" happened when the competition was entirely amateur.

Premierships should really only be counted from 1990 onwards, and even then I am not sure as the game was not really professional then either since a lot of players needed second jobs to make a living.

A premiership in 1934 where every player trained once a week and got drunk before the games is hardly worth the same as a modern professional premiership.

While I don’t really have a leaning one way or the other about counting premierships back to 1870, this is silly reasoning.

Are the Olympics going to start only counting medals from when the newest country became part of the IOC or from when professional athletes began to compete or some other caveat?

NBA titles only count from when the ABA merged into it? NRL titles only count from the inception of the Broncos and Giants into the comp in 1988? Or from when NZ joined? Come on.

What is this obsession we have with trying to weight something current over something from the past?

What makes the modern player achieving something any greater than the player from 1930?

If EVERYONE from 1930 was amateur and on the jars 5 nights a week, wouldn’t it still be the same level playing field and as such just as hard as it is now?

How the hell can you say the guy who plays a full game with no interchange, no physio, no pain killers, no protection, no recovery, no strength and conditioning people, plus a full time job, does it ‘easier’ than the guy who yeah, puts in a lot of effort training but gets managed through it all by other professionals, travels anywhere they need to in a plane, gets a few full months off every year, and has absolutely no physical commitment to stick to every day after their couple of hours at training?

 

[THE EQUALIZER]

I couldn’t give a continental what happened before 2023.

I’m sure I’m not the only one.

 

[Kenny Hunter09]

Whilst it would be a nice boost to the Carlton tally - I'm really keen on seeing flag 17. I've been waiting for it for so long (and not saying it's going to happen in my lifetime)

 

[jpmelb7]

Daily Mail wrote an article about this as well.

Carlton could have more premierships than Essendon with radical change

The former AFL commissioner and Geelong president argues the start date of the then-VFL should be moved to include the Victorian Football Association years back to 1870.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Interesting to see they list Fitzroy and Brisbane premierships together. I've always seen Fitzroy and Brisbane as two clubs with two histories including two separate premiership tallies.

If Sydney has South's premierships attributed to them then Brisbane should have Fitzroy's. I dislike how Brisbane's records include the Bears at the exclusion of Fitzroy.

 

[Coach_Required]

I'm all for teams counting flags won no matter what competition they were in, but to say that these flags should be added to the VFL/AFL competition is a tad laughable.

The VFA was a different competition, it still existed even after the VFL formed. You cant then just add those flags to the existing competition we have today.

Carlton can say they have won 22 flags but only 16 VFL/AFL flags, same with Geelong if they want to include them.

What don't I agree with is saying flags won in the VFA don't count after the VFL formed? It was still the VFA. 2 separate comps that in fact hated each other.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Its a great idea.

It was the same clubs in the 1800s VFA.

It was the 'premier comp' in the land back then.

So, Flags won in the 'premier comp' should be included in the tally of AFL clubs (the current foremost championships).

Geelong - one of the two original clubs - have won 17 flags. They dominated the original association, much like they dominate today's AFL.

 

[Freddy Swift]

If the VFA had ended at the same time, there may be a stronger argument.

The fact that the VFA continued after 8 clubs broke off makes it a bit nonsensical to try and say they were all one and the same comp.

And this is the crux of the matter for me. The VFA continued on for another 100 odd years alongside the VFL. It’s not like it suddenly stopped and the VFL began. It was a separate competition altogether.

 

[Sttew]

What don't I agree with is saying flags won in the VFA don't count after the VFL formed? It was still the VFA. 2 separate comps that in fact hated each other.

The VFL did not exist before 2 October 1896. It was just the VFA.

The VFA that existed after the breakaway was a second tier competition, initially comprising just 5 teams. So to say "it was still the VFA" is misleading. It was in name only.

 

[Hawksboy72]

Hawthorn beat Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood and Port Adelaide (in Adelaide) to win the 1985 Night Premiership

I'd argue this was more noteworthy than Geelong playing every game at home in 1878 and defeating juggernaut powerhouses like Barwon, Chilwell, Hotham, Warrigal (NSW), University and the Geelong schoolboys

Agree...but it's a well known fact that The Uni boys were tanking.

 

[Toucan Soup]

It is perfectly fine for individual clubs to recognise ALL premierships won by their teams. A Flag is an excellent achievement, and should be celebrated. (Bear in mind that some of the “premierships” in this discussion were the result of “media consensus” (1877 – 1887), and none involved a genuine Grand Final (1887 – 1895).) Link

ALL clubs – even non-Victorian clubs – should acknowledge their successes. It does not require endorsement or validation from the AFL (ie, the League), especially if they were not the officiating body.

I personally have no problem either with the argument that the AFL commenced from 1897. For me, it is an evolution, a progression from an existing Victorian competition. I appreciate that others will disagree with that premise – and that’s fine.

But to claim the early VFA premierships as “official AFL flags” is completely inaccurate, an act of twisting history to accommodate modern-day insecurities or egos. The VFA and the VFL/AFL were completely different organisations with distinct governance. Does it almost feel dishonest to claim otherwise?

Should Richmond, Footscray, and North Melbourne feel aggrieved to have their post-1896 VFA premierships excluded from the discussion? The simple answer is “No” – but they should still respect and treasure their non-VFL/AFL flags regardless. They represent tremendous triumphs within their competition of that era.

So, my opinion: clubs can claim all their past premierships, regardless of the competition; they can celebrate all of their achievements; but they should not identify them as VFL/AFL premierships, simply because they are not.

With regards to this sentence:
"The vagaries of history have meant that Geelong’s feat of winning seven senior VFA premierships during the period when the ‘Association’ was the controlling body of the premier competition in Victoria, has essentially been lost to the official record, and to historical consciousness."
I think this is completely untrue. Geelong should feel entitled to celebrate these successes without any expectation of them being considered part of the AFL (because they were not). Nothing will be lost to "historical consciousness" as long as the clubs, the media, and the public are not lazy with their collective understanding of the actual events of the past.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

The VFL did not exist before 2 October 1896. It was just the VFA.

The VFA that existed after the breakaway was a second tier competition, initially comprising just 5 teams. So to say "it was still the VFA" is misleading. It was in name only.

Uninformed post.

There were 6 teams initially, a situation that was forced onto the VFA. Of those 6 teams, 3 were later admitted to the VFL, Richmond, the Footscray and North Melbourne. Those 3 clubs collectively have proved a lot stronger than several of the original VFL clubs. The VFA quickly found its feet by recruiting more clubs and for many decades had players playing within its ranks that were upper echelon VFL players. North stalwart Syd Barker, who later captain-coached Essendon to back to back VFL flags is a notable early example of this, but there are many.

The VFA was not as strong as the VFL but it was in no way a second tier competition in the way the VFL is now to the AFL. There was a lot more overlap in the standard of the two competitions than that. My Grandfather who was born around 1909 often told me that during his playing days the VFA was considered almost as good as the VFL in standard. He played in the VFA and was invited to train at a VFL club but didn’t accept the offer, I think because the money was better in the VFA at the time. This was common. His father played in the VFL. So his opinion was an informed one.

I don’t have as big a problem with VFA flags being counted from 1888 onwards, although even those lacked complete credibility due to the way the competition was organised with teams playing different amounts of matches etc. The years before 1888, you have got to be having a laugh. You cannot seriously claim “Premierships” “won” against as few as 4 teams who did not even know they were competing for a Premiership, that is completely preposterous.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Count them and celebrate them all you want. But to have them included in official league records seems really bizarre given they weren’t in the league.

Seems like a strange personal crusade from the Geelong bloke, probably not surprising given Geelong have the most to “officially” gain.

 

[Golden_6]

I’d be completely comfortable only including the VFL/AFL flags as the only legitimate ones in the current era. The clubs individually can recognise all of their past era flags however they see fit.

 

[masai tu]

It’s not the same club

How about we make a simpler formula for the AFL, count the premierships from 1990 onwards.

Prior to 1990, the premierships are either VFL or VFA.

 

[HugeJohnson]

It’s not the same club

Who's still at Geelong from 1940? Are they the same club still if the personnel have completely changed?

 

[Noidnadroj]

Its a great idea.

It was the same clubs in the 1800s VFA.

It was the 'premier comp' in the land back then.

So, Flags won in the 'premier comp' should be included in the tally of AFL clubs (the current foremost championships).

Geelong - one of the two original clubs - have won 17 flags. They dominated the original association, much like they dominate today's AFL.

I especially like the idea of counting Carlton’s 4 x flags from 1870 to 1876 before they’d im even formed the VFA when there was at times 3 teams in the competition. No fixture .. teams just played whoever was available, whenever they got a chance. The Premier was decided by consensus vote of who was the best team, not a ladder or finals.

The VFL ‘broke away’ from the VFA in 1897 … this was because they wanted to bring a greater level of organised competition, have official rules etc… it makes perfect sense that this was the start of counting VFL/AFL Premierships.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Strange Cat]

Who's still at Geelong from 1940? Are they the same club still if the personnel have completely changed?

We aren’t a new entity established in 1997

 

[FourthTimeAround]

Colin Carter has proposed in his book launch (where attendees included the AFL Chairman and the AFL CEO) that the premiership tally be recalculated to include VFA and Victorian premierships from 1870 (Debate raging over ‘wrong’ AFL date that’s shortchanged Geelong and Sydney’s flags)

So do VFA premierships after name changed to the VFL count? Can clubs claim 2 premierships (AFL and VFL) in the same year?
Does Barry Round get to count 100+ games for Williamstown?
When do Marngrook premierships come into play? I’m sure the Kaurna Dream-Timers would love to count their 194 premierships and 1 night premiership.

 

[FourthTimeAround]

We aren’t a new entity established in 1997

 

[Strange Cat]

View attachment 1598779

Golf claps

Not going to even bother with that

Your club was established as a new entity, hence the new logo and jumper …deal with it