Proposal to include premierships dating back to 1870 gathering pace

[sherb]

Not sure why it's so hard to change it if doesn't doesn't really matter? Restoring history does matter for some of us, even if we are in the minority.

The history is there for you already, there's nothing to restore.

Geelong Football Club - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rapidfire7]

One thing is clear, there's gonna be a full on meltdown when this eventually gets over the line.

 

[Cleansweep17]

One thing is clear, there's gonna be a full on meltdown when this eventually gets over the line.

And you’ll be sooking forever because it won’t.

 

[terrybull]

One thing is clear, there's gonna be a full on meltdown when this eventually gets over the line.

I’m not religious, but I expect the second coming of Christ will happen before this.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Col doesn't want to turn old VFA Premierships into VFL or AFL ones. He just wants them to be formally recognised as Premierships by the AFL, and thus, added to the official tallies of Premierships won by the clubs. Like is the case with English Football Titles.

There is no independent “official” tally of premierships. In either sport.

In England the Premier League does the Premier League. The Football League (now the EFL) does the Football League.

The overriding body is the FA, but they don’t get involved in these things.

The Premier League records have not been changed to co-opt the Football League records.

If people want to recognise them themselves, that’s up to them. Individual clubs do.

It’s the same in Australia. The AFL (formerly the VFL) does the VFL/AFL.

Carter wants to change VFL/AFL records to co-opt VFA history into it. There’s no precedent in England for doing this.

If people or clubs want to recognise them themselves, then they’re free to. It’s up to them. Many do. Essendon have a space reserved in their premiership trophy cabinet for their “21st senior premiership” - which will be the next one (provided the world doesn’t freeze over first). But they don’t expect the AFL to recognise the VFA flags as part of VFL/AFL history. Cos they’re not.

If you, Colin Carter or anybody else wants to do up your own list and post it online or whatever, go for it. It’s not the AFL’s business however, and they know it. You can’t claim another organisation’s history as your own and seriously proclaim that as a universal truth.

 

[2009premiers]

As far as my Wikipedia research goes:
1870 - No formal competition, just clubs organising a few games between themselves.
1877 - VFA started to agree on rules but there was no formal competition or ranking, standard fixture or premierships awarded.
1888 - formal competition with ladder and premierships recognised by VFA
1894 - first time a standard fixture introduced.
1896 - formal Grand Final playoff introduced

The formal VFA premiers were:
1888 South Melbourne
1889 South Melbourne
1890 South Melbourne
1891 Essendon
1892 Essendon
1893 Essendon
1894 Essendon
1895 Fitzroy
1896 Collingwood

To claim anything prior to 1888 as a VFA premiership is disingenuous. It is like Mark Robinson and the Herald Sun deciding who they think the premiership team is after watching a few random games.

Up to 1893 there wasn’t even a standard fixture.
In my view, only 1894 onwards could seriously be considered as a continuous precursor to the VFL.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

As far as my Wikipedia research goes:
1870 - No formal competition, just clubs organising a few games between themselves.
1877 - VFA started to agree on rules but there was no formal competition or ranking, standard fixture or premierships awarded.
1888 - formal competition with ladder and premierships recognised by VFA
1894 - first time a standard fixture introduced.
1896 - formal Grand Final playoff introduced

The formal VFA premiers were:
1888 South Melbourne
1889 South Melbourne
1890 South Melbourne
1891 Essendon
1892 Essendon
1893 Essendon
1894 Essendon
1895 Fitzroy
1896 Collingwood

To claim anything prior to 1888 as a VFA premiership is disingenuous. It is like Mark Robinson and the Herald Sun deciding who they think the premiership team is after watching a few random games.

Up to 1893 there wasn’t even a standard fixture.
In my view, only 1894 onwards could seriously be considered as a continuous precursor to the VFL.

Look at your list and try to work why Colin Carter doesn’t agree with you.

 

[rapidfire7]

There is no independent “official” tally of premierships. In either sport.

Whether or not there is an absolute official tally, it is widely accepted in English football that Premierships from the EPL and the old First Division can be added together to give a clubs full tally of English titles.

You see and hear about how many English titles a club has won all the time. There's nothing controversial about it.

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

 

[Pies No 1]

They need to leave it alone, or it will open up a can of worms with teams like Port Adelaide claiming the 36 SANFL premierships, or the new Tassie team claiming random Tasmanian premierships from the last 100 years.

 

[2009premiers]

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

See my above post. There was no formal VFA premiership prior to 1888. The was no standard fixture until 1894.
English football had a formal premiership and standard fixture from Day 1.

 

[Cyclops]

Whether or not there is an absolute official tally, it is widely accepted in English football that Premierships from the EPL and the old First Division can be added together to give a clubs full tally of English titles.

You see and hear about how many English titles a club has won all the time. There's nothing controversial about it.

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

Why is it OK for you to posit windy rhetorical questions?

You've been answered many times ITT, two excellent answers in the last few. You have not responded to their excellent points, which destroy yours.

Your position is baseless, like Carter's.

 

[screech]

Yes, it is broadly acknowledged and spoken of that Man Utd has won 20 titles in England. No one seems to diminish the worthiness of the ones they won prior to the formation of the EPL.

Why are Carlton's 22 Premierships (inclusive of 6 from the VFA era) not viewed in the same light by the vast majority of the football public? Why shouldn't their VFA flags be viewed similarly to Man United's first division titles?

Because 7 of Manchester United's titles were not won in a regional Manchester or Northern Britain competition, they were all won in the top national division of the time. Only one of Carlton's was.

 

[2009premiers]

Look at your list and try to work why Colin Carter doesn’t agree with you.

Amazing that Geelong website claims “premierships” between 1870 and 1887 in an association that did not award premierships and wasn’t even a formal competition until 1888.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Whether or not there is an absolute official tally, it is widely accepted in English football that Premierships from the EPL and the old First Division can be added together to give a clubs full tally of English titles.

You see and hear about how many English titles a club has won all the time. There's nothing controversial about it.

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

People can accept what they accept. You can say whatever you like. So can your club.

I don’t know why it wouldn’t be “okay” to say it. Essendon has won 20 flags. It’s okay to say that. It’s a fact. Nobody else cares.

But you won’t see the Premier League acknowledge ManU as 20x title winners and you won’t see the AFL acknowledge Essendon as 20x league premiers.

Say and recognise whatever you like. But Carter demanding that a league co-opt the history of another (one it killed, no less) in its own record books is ridiculous.

Go ahead and paint 17x Premiers in big letters on the side of Kardinia Park. Some may laugh at you given 7 were awarded before the VFA premiership was officially established, but that’s your right. If you want to celebrate it, go for it.

Carter is on a one-man crusade and the AFL continue to rebuff his push. I suspect they know it doesn’t make much sense and what’s more, his motives are obviously to be questioned given his club allegiances.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Amazing that Geelong website claims “premierships” between 1870 and 1887 in an association that did not award premierships and wasn’t even a formal competition until 1888.

Geelong can claim whatever it likes. It’s their business.

Demanding the AFL change their own records to reflect it, however… please.

 

[Sentinel]

Whether or not there is an absolute official tally, it is widely accepted in English football that Premierships from the EPL and the old First Division can be added together to give a clubs full tally of English titles.

You see and hear about how many English titles a club has won all the time. There's nothing controversial about it.

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

I'm 99% sure you must be trolling at this point, as you were earlier in this thread. If not, you're absolutely delusional.

Nobody here says with a straight face that Carlton has won 22 Premierships, and nobody says Manchester United has won 20 EPL titles. You know this though.

 

[peetoo]

Whether or not there is an absolute official tally, it is widely accepted in English football that Premierships from the EPL and the old First Division can be added together to give a clubs full tally of English titles.

You see and hear about how many English titles a club has won all the time. There's nothing controversial about it.

Please tell me if there is a difference in the relationship between the old First Division in England and the Premier League, when compared to the relationship between that of the old VFA and the VFL/AFL.

If there are no notable differences, why do they broadly accept totalling the two eras of titles together in England, but we do not over here?
Why do people get so upset if someone says Carlton has won 22 Premierships over here, but no one bats an eyelid if someone says Liverpool has 19 or Man Utd has 20 titles?

Why is it okay to say one but not the other? what is the difference?

It seems the EPL is one of the most most resolute leagues in not recording anything but EPL titles

 

[terrybull]

See my above post. There was no formal VFA premiership prior to 1888. The was no standard fixture until 1894.
English football had a formal premiership and standard fixture from Day 1.

Not really from day 1

There are reference soccer was played as early in the 1300’s

Although from 1801 it started to rise in popularity.

In 1860 the first games was played with written down rules - Sheffield Rules.

In 1888 the first League was formed and winners counted from here onwards.

Guess there was no newspapers reporters deciding who were Premiers before 1888.

And the huge difference between the clubs that broke away to start the Premier League is they let the the other clubs join as well.

Imagine if this in the VFL happened in 1897?

Break-away to form VFL but VFA is still joined by promotion-regulation.

 

[Warhorse]

I would only include flags from the AFL era personally. Many state leagues around before that

 

[terrybull]

Things more likely to happen than Carter’s suggestion:

- Fitzroy re-instated in the AFL.

- AFL becomes promotion-regulation by having all the State Leagues join.

- University re-instated in the AFL

- hitting the post = 3 points

- going Ancient Greek, all games in the nude.

- Australian Football becoming the world’s number one sport.

- St.Kilda winning another Premiership (actually may have gone too far here, 50/50 this one).

 

[2009premiers]

Not really from day 1

There are reference soccer was played as early in the 1300’s

Although from 1801 it started to rise in popularity.

In 1860 the first games was played with written down rules - Sheffield Rules.

In 1888 the first League was formed and winners counted from here onwards.

Guess there was no newspapers reporters deciding who were Premiers before 1888.

And the huge difference between the clubs that broke away to start the Premier League is they let the the other clubs join as well.

Imagine if this in the VFL happened in 1897?

Break-away to form VFL but VFA is still joined by promotion-regulation.

You are right. I meant 1888 English Football League as day one, but clearly there were existing clubs with ad hoc competition before that, much like the VFA prior to 1894.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

You are right. I meant 1888 English Football League as day one, but clearly there were existing clubs with ad hoc competition before that, much like the VFA prior to 1894.

A thing of beauty. Remains unchanged from 1888-89 apart from expansion and 3 points for a win, both overwhelmingly positive changes.

Pos	Team	P	W	D	L	GF	GA	Pts
1	Preston North End	22	18	4	0	74	15	40
2	Aston Villa	22	12	5	5	61	43	29
3	Wolverhampton Wanderers	22	12	4	6	50	37	28
4	Blackburn Rovers	22	10	6	6	66	45	26
5	Bolton Wanderers	22	10	2	10	63	59	22
6	West Bromwich Albion	22	10	2	10	40	46	22
7	Accrington	22	6	8	8	48	48	20
8	Everton	22	9	2	11	35	46	20
9	Burnley	22	7	3	12	42	62	17
10	Derby County	22	7	2	13	41	61	16
11	Notts County	22	5	2	15	40	73	12
12	Stoke	22	4	4	14	26	51	12

 

[peetoo]

Not really from day 1

There are reference soccer was played as early in the 1300’s

Although from 1801 it started to rise in popularity.

In 1860 the first games was played with written down rules - Sheffield Rules.

In 1888 the first League was formed and winners counted from here onwards.

Guess there was no newspapers reporters deciding who were Premiers before 1888.

And the huge difference between the clubs that broke away to start the Premier League is they let the the other clubs join as well.

Imagine if this in the VFL happened in 1897?

Break-away to form VFL but VFA is still joined by promotion-regulation.

Sheffield rules had some similarities to Australian rules

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It's the same logic that says Port's SANFL premierships should be included

Honestly, its so simple. Premierships should just be separated out into the comp they were won in.

AFL
VFL
WAFL
SANFL

If clubs want to count them together, whether it's Collingwood AFL/VFL or Port AFL/SANFL - go for it.

Yes the AFL is a continuous league from the VFL, but that's simplicist and doesn't recognise that the VFL was a state based amateur league just like the SANFL and WAFL. Port's historic SANFL premierships are no less than Collingwood's VFL flags.

VFL/AFL is the same competition so they are counted together. They are also the only flags of relevance when looking at the record books of the competition.

Flags won in other comps are relevant to the clubs record books but not to the record books of the VFL/AFL competition.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

No it's not the correct understanding of Aussie Rules history.

The VFA back in the 1800s was the Premier Comp in the Nation.

Aussie Rules "flags" for current AFL teams should only be counted if they were won in the Nations Premier Comp at the whatever point in the games history.

So SANFL, WAFL, VFA 1900s etc. "flags" don't meet the requirements as they were not the nations premier comp. They are not equivalent to Flags won in the best comp in various periods of Aussie rules history.

Original VFA flags count.
VFL flags from 1898 onwards to 1990 count.
AFL flags from 1990 - ..... count.

Original VFA flags don't "count" in the records of the VFL/AFL competition. They count for the clubs as part of recognising their history but they are irrelevant when looking at the premiership tally of the VFL/AFL.