Fixture Putting the fix in fixture

[doppleganger]

A flight from Sydney is just as long as a drive from Geelong. Sydney to Melbourne is also the 6th busiest air route in the world, plenty of flights.

LOL

The drive from the airport to the G is a good 30min on a good run with tolls.

But yes, you stick with your it is just as easy for a Sydney based Giants fan to watch the Giants at the G line.

they are not neutral just because you keep saying they are neutral.

When you play 6 games at a venue the players are familiar with it.

When you can have 20k of your fans their cheering you on, there is a wall of noise, no real noise of affirmation.

Geelong playing at the G is a neutral game.

That’s Essendon’s issue, not Geelong’s. Essendon signed on to play games at the Docklands venue in when it opened, play all their games at the Docklands venue, play Essendon v Geelong at Marvel.

The old SA line...not their problem.

Geelong also 'signed on' to play games at Docklands when it opened.

So did the Dees.

Geelong only have that split because they scheduled 2 home games there and 4 away, like I said Essendon should play home games at marvel.

Geelong are the only Victorian team to retain a true home ground.

And they then get 6 neutral games at the G on top of that.

Essendon just play a glut of neutral games, amd hardly ever get a game where they have a real home ground advantage.

 

[Blackas87]

LOL

The drive from the airport to the G is a good 30min on a good run with tolls.

But yes, you stick with your it is just as easy for a Sydney based Giants fan to watch the Giants at the G line.

I didn’t say it was easy, it’s just not hard though. I’ve done day trips to Sydney in the past to watch the footy.

Not every Geelong fan lives right in Geelong, they live further out, 30 - 45 mins to get to Geelong, let a one then getting to Melbourne. It’s Geelong’s home game, why should their fans have to travel to the game?

When you play 6 games at a venue the players are familiar with it.

When you can have 20k of your fans their cheering you on, there is a wall of noise, no real noise of affirmation.

I beg to differ on your numbers of away fans at these games. I’ve been to plenty of Melbourne away games at the MCG and the Dees supports is no where near the same as home games. As you’re a Collingwood supporter and your club gets reserved seats for away games at the MCG that no other club gets you may feel there is no real noise affirmation.

The old SA line...not their problem.

Geelong also 'signed on' to play games at Docklands when it opened.

So did the Dees.

no they didn’t, Geelong didn’t, Dees didn’t. North Melbourne, St Kilda and the Western Bulldogs also didn’t sign a contract to play there. Only club to sign a contract with the Docklands stadium to play home games there was Essendon. They got a great stadium deal to play there while they still wanted to play games at the MCG. It’s Essendon’s issue why they have 50/50 ratio of games at the MCG and Marvel. Not Geelong’s problem Essendon didn’t commit to one venue to get a better home ground advantage. Nor Geelong should play a home game at a venue where the opposition are more familiar with it.

Geelong are the only Victorian team to retain a true home ground.

And they then get 6 neutral games at the G on top of that.

Essendon just play a glut of neutral games, amd hardly ever get a game where they have a real home ground advantage.

good on Geelong for playing games in Geelong

Then tough it out with home games at the opponents home ground like Collingwood round one.

Essendon didn’t commit to one home venue, that’s their problem not Geelong’s

 

[Taper]

When have Geelong ever been s**t? I think in my lifetime the lowest amount of wins in a season is 7! They never bottom out

We haven't won a wooden spoon since 1958, haven't finished bottom 4 since 1986 and haven't sacked a head coach since 1988.

 

[doppleganger]

I didn’t say it was easy, it’s just not hard though. I’ve done day trips to Sydney in the past to watch the footy.

Certainly much easier to simply head up the highway compared to heading to a different state like Melbourne fans do for their "home" games.

I beg to differ on your numbers of away fans at these games. I’ve been to plenty of Melbourne away games at the MCG and the Dees supports is no where near the same as home games.

Geelong are involved in some BLOCKBUSTERS at the G.

Easter Monday, if it is a "home" or "away" game is the difference between what end of a 60-40 type crowd split you are on.

And if the players are familiar with the G, surely 6 games per year is plenty to be familiar, then it is a neutral game.

Essendon didn’t commit to one home venue, that’s their problem not Geelong’s

Which Melbourne based club plays home games out of one venue?

The Hawks, Dees, Tigers and Pies are forced to play home games at Marvel - and Tigers, Hawks and Dees decided to sell games as a result.

The thread is a sook about placing commercial interests ahead of sporting integrity...the biggest beneficiaries of that are non Melbourne based clubs, the clubs who retain a home ground.

 

[Captivating]

We haven't won a wooden spoon since 1958, haven't finished bottom 4 since 1986 and haven't sacked a head coach since 1988.

From 1998 to 2003, they played finals just once, including finishing 12, 12, 11 and 12th out of 16 teams
From 1970 to 1988, they played finals just 4 times including finishing 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, and 9 out of 12 teams

 

[Taper]

From 1998 to 2003, they played finals just once, including finishing 12, 12, 11 and 12th out of 16 teams
From 1970 to 1988, they played finals just 4 times including finishing 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, and 9 out of 12 teams

That doesn't change any of the facts written in my post.

 

[Captivating]

That doesn't change any of the facts written in my post.

Sorry, I was meant to reply to Crusty Demon and when the Cats have been shit.

 

[Dan26]

You say there is no disadvantage of an away game at the G for us but then list the reasons why we are disadvantaged.

You didn't even read my post. I listed the reasons why you are NOT disadvantaged, which I'm happy to go through again for a low IQ individual.:

1. Ground familiarity
2. Travel
3. lack of away fans

None of those disadvantages apply to Geelong at the MCG. None of them. They all apply at the Gabba or Adelaide Oval for context.

Familiarity is against us when it’s pies, tigers, melbourne.

You're drawing a long bow and being intellectually dishonest if you think playing "only" 6 games at the MCG (and as many as 8 in past years) is a disadvantage compared to a team playing 12. You play roughly every third or fourth week at the MCG on average, and Richmond and Melbourne don't get to train there. It might be a disadvantage playing there once, but not 6-8 times, and you know it.

On top of that we are outnumbered significantly when it comes to Essendon or Carlton.

So what? You still have thousands upon thousands of fans at the game, none are locked out, and they make plenty of noise. You probably have more Geelong fans for a big away game at the MCG than at GMHBA.

The familiarity is minor of course.

Oh Gee, you think.

2 of our own home games are at a disadvantage, hell it even happens in finals.

Playing at the MCG where you don't travel, have thousands of unrestricted fans at the game at a ground you play at 6-8 times per year is not a disadvantage. Never has been and never will be.

From your own argument we are -4 not +4.

No, you are +4.

9 games where you have an advantage
5 travel games (where you have a disadvantage)
8 neutral (excluding Gather round)

+4. Every year

Reading your arguments is hilarious. You can’t even successfully argue we are advantaged, mainly because it’s impossible.

I did argue it and used something called evidence, logic and common sense. You did none of those things. It's okay I don't blame you. You're biased, and therefore your opinion is worthless, and largely ignored. Champ.

 

[z547043]

Certainly much easier to simply head up the highway compared to heading to a different state like Melbourne fans do for their "home" games.

Geelong are involved in some BLOCKBUSTERS at the G.

Easter Monday, if it is a "home" or "away" game is the difference between what end of a 60-40 type crowd split you are on.

And if the players are familiar with the G, surely 6 games per year is plenty to be familiar, then it is a neutral game.


Which Melbourne based club plays home games out of one venue?

The Hawks, Dees, Tigers and Pies are forced to play home games at Marvel - and Tigers, Hawks and Dees decided to sell games as a result.

The thread is a sook about placing commercial interests ahead of sporting integrity...the biggest beneficiaries of that are non Melbourne based clubs, the clubs who retain a home ground.

You can’t honestly believe that. In a competition that really only recognises success as being in the form of a Premiership, then surely the fact that the GF is played at certain club’s home ground is the ultimate advantage.

Not to mention the MCG stadium deal that explicitly states 10 of the top drawing 12 games must be at the MCG. I wonder which club/s is going to feature prominently in that 10…

You can argue all you want about Geelong having the biggest advantage, the majority of which is conjecture, but you ignore the fact that come finals time that goes out the window. Regardless, I’m not even going to challenge you on this point, because it’s a hopeless argument.

What I will say is that the original point was made that Collingwood have enjoyed a comparative advantage over the AFL era over teams like Melbourne, St. Kilda, Kangaroos, Hawthorn etc. and in fact the whole competition, by virtue of the AFL’s refusal and reluctance to schedule games between Geelong and Collingwood at Geelong’s home ground. Ultimately in isolation, you can’t deny this advantage, yet I’m betting the house you can warp your logic somehow with mental gymnastics to do exactly that.

 

[z547043]

From 1998 to 2003, they played finals just once, including finishing 12, 12, 11 and 12th out of 16 teams
From 1970 to 1988, they played finals just 4 times including finishing 11, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, and 9 out of 12 teams

Different definitions of shit I believe. Have won at least 7 games since 1973 when we won 6. You will have a tough time finding another club that has won 7+ games every year since 2000. In fact, it would be impossible. That’s 50+ years of never bottoming out and being competitive. No other club in that period can say the same.

 

[bjwilliams]

Just chiming in quickly because some points you've made make sense but some some you're just being purposefully obtuse.

A flight from Sydney is just as long as a drive from Geelong. Sydney to Melbourne is also the 6th busiest air route in the world, plenty of flights.

You're pretending a flight to Sydney is the same as driving down the M1 to GMHBA or the G. It's not. It's not even close. The flight to Sydney may take 70 minutes, but the trip to Tullamarine, cost of parking/bus, allowance for travel time once you're there, hotel costs, food while away etc. etc. etc.

 

[doppleganger]

You can’t honestly believe that. In a competition that really only recognises success as being in the form of a Premiership, then surely the fact that the GF is played at certain club’s home ground is the ultimate advantage.

Damn straight I believe it.

I am talking about the H&A FIXture, it is biased towards teams who retain a home ground with an actual home ground advantage.

Weeks 1-3 of finals then use H&A results to determine venues (only non-vic clubs get the home advantage again though).

Not to mention the MCG stadium deal that explicitly states 10 of the top drawing 12 games must be at the MCG. I wonder which club/s is going to feature prominently in that 10…

Collingwood v Essendon and Richmond etc.

They are the big neutral BLOCKBUSTERS

You can argue all you want about Geelong having the biggest advantage, the majority of which is conjecture, but you ignore the fact that come finals time that goes out the window.

The FIX in the H&A FIXture is what the thread is about.

Come finals time Geelong is in a much better position than many Melbourne based teams as they are very familiar with the MCG.

What I will say is that the original point was made that Collingwood have enjoyed a comparative advantage over the AFL era over teams like Melbourne, St. Kilda, Kangaroos, Hawthorn etc. and in fact the whole competition, by virtue of the AFL’s refusal and reluctance to schedule games between Geelong and Collingwood at Geelong’s home ground. Ultimately in isolation, you can’t deny this advantage, yet I’m betting the house you can warp your logic somehow with mental gymnastics to do exactly that.

Collingwood have the most favourable FIXture of the Melbourne based teams, no doubt about that.

 

[z547043]

Damn straight I believe it.

I am talking about the H&A FIXture, it is biased towards teams who retain a home ground with an actual home ground advantage.

Weeks 1-3 of finals then use H&A results to determine venues (only non-vic clubs get the home advantage again though).

Collingwood v Essendon and Richmond etc.

They are the big neutral BLOCKBUSTERS

The FIX in the H&A FIXture is what the thread is about.

Come finals time Geelong is in a much better position than many Melbourne based teams as they are very familiar with the MCG.

Collingwood have the most favourable FIXture of the Melbourne based teams, no doubt about that.

Yeah, I think there is a degree of conjecture on this one. The statement itself I have no issue with and there are certainly elements of the current stadium arrangements that are an advantage to Geelong and the current league structure in the H and A season, no doubt.

But I can’t accept the premise that Geelong v Collingwood/Richmond/Hawthorn/Essendon and Melbourne at the G are neutral games, regardless of whose ‘home’ fixture it is. I don’t think you can categorise Geelong as a co-tenant of the G. For interest, would you have considered Collingwood v Geelong at the G a neutral game, back when Geelong were playing 4 home games at Etihad to fufill the AFL’s contractual obligation and the remaining 7 at KP? This premise of Geelong as a co-tenant forms a large part of your argument and I respectfully disagree.

 

[Underarm]

Yeah, I think there is a degree of conjecture on this one. The statement itself I have no issue with and there are certainly elements of the current stadium arrangements that are an advantage to Geelong and the current league structure in the H and A season, no doubt.

But I can’t accept the premise that Geelong v Collingwood/Richmond/Hawthorn/Essendon and Melbourne at the G are neutral games, regardless of whose ‘home’ fixture it is. I don’t think you can categorise Geelong as a co-tenant of the G. For interest, would you have considered Collingwood v Geelong at the G a neutral game, back when Geelong were playing 4 home games at Etihad to fufill the AFL’s contractual obligation and the remaining 7 at KP? This premise of Geelong as a co-tenant forms a large part of your argument and I respectfully disagree.

Essendon play 8 games at Docklands, Dogs play 12.
Essendon play 8 games at the MCG, Geelong play 6.

Why does Geelong get to play the away card and not Essendon?

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah, I think there is a degree of conjecture on this one. The statement itself I have no issue with and there are certainly elements of the current stadium arrangements that are an advantage to Geelong and the current league structure in the H and A season, no doubt.

Not just Geelong, the other non Melbourne teams who get 10+ games with home ground advantage too.

But I can’t accept the premise that Geelong v Collingwood/Richmond/Hawthorn/Essendon and Melbourne at the G are neutral games, regardless of whose ‘home’ fixture it is. I don’t think you can categorise Geelong as a co-tenant of the G.

Why?

How many games does it take to be familiar with a ground?

Geelong play 6, Essendon 8 and Hawthorn 9.

Do you think Hawthorn have some massive advantage on Easter Monday when it is their nominal home game?

For interest, would you have considered Collingwood v Geelong at the G a neutral game, back when Geelong were playing 4 home games at Etihad to fufill the AFL’s contractual obligation and the remaining 7 at KP?

Back in early 2000s both clubs played more games at the Docklands.

ie from 2001 to 2005 there were 4 Pies v Cats games played at the Docklands. 2 "home" games each.

Back then both Collingwood and Geelong played 6 or 7 games at Etihad each season, these were again neutral games.

They are now just played at the G, a ground both teams are very familiar with.

 

[FFB1]

Interstate clubs need to play minimum 3 H&A games at the MCG every season. We play there so often the only way I remember where to go is the ground is directly in front of you when you exit the Royal Richmond via the main door.

 

[Walshawk]

Yes, the Cats get a slight advantage in the H & A season by having the last remaining true HGA. But they then get a slight disadvantage in the finals compared to the MCG clubs. Same with Saints, Dogs having to host finals @ MCG v Pies. Swings and roundabouts.

 

[z547043]

Essendon play 8 games at Docklands, Dogs play 12.
Essendon play 8 games at the MCG, Geelong play 6.

Why does Geelong get to play the away card and not Essendon?

Are rounds 21 and 22 this year going to be neutral games for Richmond? Played at a stadium you play home games at. I don’t think there is an arbitrary figure or number of games that you can put on it.

 

[z547043]

Not just Geelong, the other non Melbourne teams who get 10+ games with home ground advantage too.

Why?

How many games does it take to be familiar with a ground?

Geelong play 6, Essendon 8 and Hawthorn 9.

Do you think Hawthorn have some massive advantage on Easter Monday when it is their nominal home game?

Back in early 2000s both clubs played more games at the Docklands.

ie from 2001 to 2005 there were 4 Pies v Cats games played at the Docklands. 2 "home" games each.

Back then both Collingwood and Geelong played 6 or 7 games at Etihad each season, these were again neutral games.

They are now just played at the G, a ground both teams are very familiar with.

Well I think by you own definition you concede the point. Familiarity doesn’t exist in a yes or no form. Familiarity exists on a scale with some teams more familiar with venues than others. That would lend itself to the very notion that the team with the greater familiarity to the venue has an advantage, albeit a diminished one by your own logic. To say that Geelong players have an equal familiarity with the MCG as Collingwood or Hawthorn players would be incorrect.

And that doesn’t even touch on crowd splits and the ability of crowds to influence umpires in regards to subjective rules like HTB, Deliberate, Push in the Back, etc.

Regardless, as I said before, I’m not particularly interested in going down that path of trying to debate with you and establish/prove to you that a home ground advantage exists in those such games, as I think it ultimately is simply opinion based and subjective. I respect your position, but I disagree that those games are neutral and neither team enjoys any sort of home ground advantage. Additionally I totally accept your argument that certain teams probably enjoy a greater home ground advantage than others. So perhaps that’s where we meet

 

[Underarm]

Are rounds 21 and 22 this year going to be neutral games for Richmond? Played at a stadium you play home games at. I don’t think there is an arbitrary figure or number of games that you can put on it.

3 games at Docklands vs 12 for dogs is a bit different to 6 and 8.

 

[doppleganger]

Well I think by you own definition you concede the point. Familiarity doesn’t exist in a yes or no form. Familiarity exists on a scale with some teams more familiar with venues than others. That would lend itself to the very notion that the team with the greater familiarity to the venue has an advantage, albeit a diminished one by your own logic. To say that Geelong players have an equal familiarity with the MCG as Collingwood or Hawthorn players would be incorrect.

Familiarity is having a good knowledge of something.

Geelong playing 6 games v Essendon 8, both teams are familiar with the MCG.

Essendon 8 v Melbourne 13, both teams are familiar with the MCG.

Geelong playing 9 games v Essendon 1, only Geelong is familiar with Cat Park.

Once both teams are familiar with a venue, going from 6 games to 9 provides what additional knowledge?

And that doesn’t even touch on crowd splits and the ability of crowds to influence umpires in regards to subjective rules like HTB, Deliberate, Push in the Back, etc.

Again, true home advantage is when the crowd is 90% in favour of a home team. The noise is just for one team.

This is the scenario in most stadium arouns the world, and what the old VFL used to have...surprise surprise that home ground advantage

At a big 80k+ crowd that is a 60-40 style crowd split at the big MCG BLOCKBUSTERS it is a wall of noise with cries of BALLL ringing out for both teams etc.

That again is a huge advantage of CatPark.

Regardless, as I said before, I’m not particularly interested in going down that path of trying to debate with you and establish/prove to you that a home ground advantage exists in those such games, as I think it ultimately is simply opinion based and subjective.

It is pretty common practice to accept the big MCG BLOCKBUSTER games as neutral with respect to ground advantage.

I respect your position, but I disagree that those games are neutral and neither team enjoys any sort of home ground advantage. Additionally I totally accept your argument that certain teams probably enjoy a greater home ground advantage than others. So perhaps that’s where we meet

The concept of home ground advantage has been hijacked by SA/WA fans to be about travel.

Home ground advantaged existed back in VFL comp in the 1950s, when 11 of the 12 teams were from Melbourne. For three consecutive years in the late 1950s across the league the "home" team won 65% of games...in the 2010s the "home" win rate was around 55%.

Back in VFL, teams were unfamiliar with away venues, and only a small number of fans would attend away games.

Unfortunately, that didnt make the league money. Why play at small stadiums and only have one set of fans attend (integrity), when you can play big BLOCKBUSTERS at a couple of generic league funded stadiums and have both team fans attend in large numbers.

 

[Whiskers]

3 games at Docklands vs 12 for dogs is a bit different to 6 and 8.

Hooray you get it.
It is different, so north, dogs and saints visiting you is not neutral at all like some around here claim. It seems a few try to say it is. Crowd and familiarity is against them.
However when you go to marvel you generally get the crowd support.
Ok… ok maybe not Richmond as your fans don’t seem to go there but the other big clubs do.
For Geelong crowd and/or familiarity is generally against us 13 times a year. Ok maybe not against the hawks.
Our home games at the G against tigers/pies are away ones.

 

[z547043]

3 games at Docklands vs 12 for dogs is a bit different to 6 and 8.

So it is an arbitrary number? I think you and doppleganger are inadvertently proving my point. After x games there is no away disadvantage, but only up to x games and Geelong just happen to exceed this, so they don’t suffer any away disadvantage. Like I said earlier, I think it is all pretty subjective.

 

[Underarm]

So it is an arbitrary number? I think you and doppleganger are inadvertently proving my point. After x games there is no away disadvantage, but only up to x games and Geelong just happen to exceed this, so they don’t suffer any away disadvantage. Like I said earlier, I think it is all pretty subjective.

I'm not sure what line should be, but I know one team playing 4 times as many games as their opponent is an advantage, and 1.33 times as many isn't.

 

[doppleganger]

So it is an arbitrary number? I think you and doppleganger are inadvertently proving my point. After x games there is no away disadvantage, but only up to x games and Geelong just happen to exceed this, so they don’t suffer any away disadvantage. Like I said earlier, I think it is all pretty subjective.

Surely it is realtive to your opponent.

Playing 12 games at a venue when your opponent plays 8 games you are only 1.5X as familiar, this is effectively neutral compared to the real home ground advantage which is when teams are often 10X more familiar.

Geelong have 9 home games at Cat Park, in all 9 they are 9X more familiar with the ground than their opponents.

Collingwood have 1, Richmond 1, Essendon, Carlton, Melbourne and Hawthorn have 0 home games where they are 9X more familiar than their opponent.

So it actually seems Geelong fans are taking the nonsense arbritrary position where they think playing 6 vs 8 or 9 is not effectively neutral (especially when compared to 9 vs 1).