Expansion QLD and NSW academies

[Scotland]

Yes, and where did we get those picks? A bit of a hint, we traded out our first rounder for those picks, hence, we used our first rounder.

OK?

There were 27 picks in the first round last year and 29 the year before. "First rounder" doesn't really mean anything.

In 2023 we picked H Reid at #1 and A Reid at #30 because those were our draft order selections for finishing last. The team who came last had one selection in the first 30. One.

Meanwhile Gold Coast had 4 and Sydney had 2. GWS also had 2 due to pick trades. If Gold Coast had managed to come last they would have ended up with their 4 academy players plus Harley Reid. It is a joke of a system.

 

[My_Username]

Brisbane's debt levels were $13 million as of two years ago.
Did their AFL sugar daddy wipe the debt?
It wouldn't surprise me given all the handouts the Lions and Suns have received and continue to receive.

How much money did the AFL put into Kardinia park?

 

[Jirik13]

Brisbane's debt levels were $13 million as of two years ago.
Did their AFL sugar daddy wipe the debt?
It wouldn't surprise me given all the handouts the Lions and Suns have received and continue to receive.

No. Getting finally their home base they stopped paying crazy rent at Gabba (I believe it was around 3M per year). With success comes additional income from sponsors, sold out home games, membership (going through the roof).

Sure Lions get higher AFL contributions than Vic clubs. IMO, well spent money considering how AFL is growing in QLD.

 

[RUNVS]

QLD and NSW clubs are spoon fed because the AFL want to prioritise those clubs winning flags first and foremost, even if it means screwing over clubs in Victoria.

and yet the last 15 of 18 flags have gone to Victorian clubs.

 

[Taper]

None of your response disputes that all clubs recieve financial distribution from the AFL.

Lions and Suns have been up the top end of the financial distribution chart for years.

No. Getting finally their home base they stopped paying crazy rent at Gabba (I believe it was around 3M per year). With success comes additional income from sponsors, sold out home games, membership (going through the roof).

Sure Lions get higher AFL contributions than Vic clubs. IMO, well spent money considering how AFL is growing in QLD.

Australian Football is huge in QLD so why the need to keep giving leg ups to the Lions and Suns?
I'm worried about QLD becoming stronger than Victoria when it comes to producing talent for the AFL, and if the Lions and Suns continue to receive exclusive access to QLD talent it's only going to make the draft become more and more compromised.

 

[Jirik13]

I'm worried about QLD becoming stronger than Victoria when it comes to producing talent for the AFL

You cracked me up. We will be long gone before this would happen (IMO, it will never happen). How many draftees come from Vic compared to QLD?

Australian Football is huge in QLD

It's a growing commercial market for AFL. NRL still dominates.

Lions and Suns continue to receive exclusive access to QLD talent it's only going to make the draft become more and more compromised.

Yes, draft is compromised but not only by Northern academies. Northern academies, NGA (hello Vic clubs), F/S will have to pay fair values. Not even talking about Vic draftees not wanting to go interstate hence interstate clubs removing them from their draft order list.

BTW, there will be spill off of academy players from Suns academy soon. I suspect Suns will draft 3 academy players (2 possibly in round 1) and another 3-5 players could end up with other clubs in 2025. It's not like Suns could draft 10 academy players per year. Enjoy more players in the system.

I can't wait for Suns to finally become relevant and play finals (still waiting despite academy; it only started producing in the last 2 years after putting more money into it).

 

[Lions2Good]

Hopefully the academies keep pumping out more local talent so the Lions can continue owning Geelong.

 

[Taper]

You cracked me up. We will be long gone before this would happen (IMO, it will never happen). How many draftees come from Vic compared to QLD?

Had anyone suggested 20 years ago that QLD will one day surpass SA in terms of participation, TV ratings and producing talent for the AFL they would have been laughed at.
QLD is on track to surpass WA in these metrics within the next decade, after that is when I fear QLD will emerge as a threat to Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

It's a growing commercial market for AFL. NRL still dominates.

Yes, draft is compromised but not only by Northern academies. Northern academies, NGA (hello Vic clubs), F/S will have to pay fair values. Not even talking about Vic draftees not wanting to go interstate hence interstate clubs removing them from their draft order list.

Academy players should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
Look at Sydney's side and about a third is made up of players from their academy.

BTW, there will be spill off of academy players from Suns academy soon. I suspect Suns will draft 3 academy players (2 possibly in round 1) and another 3-5 players could end up with other clubs in 2025. It's not like Suns could draft 10 academy players per year. Enjoy more players in the system.

I can't wait for Suns to finally become relevant and play finals (still waiting despite academy; it only started producing in the last 2 years after putting more money into it).

AFL House money.
I'm not a fan of AFL House alienating die hard fans in traditional Australian Football heartland such as Victoria, but I'm sure the traditional clubs will make noise about the academies soon enough just as they did previously regarding the retention allowance and cost of living allowance.

 

[Obeanie1]

No other club has access to the draft?

Is spud fagan still in the room with you?

Sure every club has access to the draft........just not the volume or quality of players selected lucky clubs get because of the AFL chasing TV rights revenues in non traditional states.

That isnt under disput is it?

 

[Obeanie1]

Had anyone suggested 20 years ago that QLD will one day surpass SA in terms of participation, TV ratings and producing talent for the AFL they would have been laughed at.
QLD is on track to surpass WA in these metrics within the next decade, after that is when I fear QLD will emerge as a threat to Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

Academy players should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
Look at Sydney's side and about a third is made up of players from their academy.

AFL House money.
I'm not a fan of AFL House alienating die hard fans in traditional Australian Football heartland such as Victoria, but I'm sure the traditional clubs will make noise about the academies soon enough just as they did previously regarding the retention allowance and cost of living allowance.

Just like Brisbane losing cola it wont be long before the AFL cant keep a straight face gifting premiership sides unfair advantages when wooden spoon sides are struggling but get nothing.

Its all fine helping clubs at the bottom of the ladder. Three flags in a row and cola had to stop. How much success needs to be propped up by AFL leg ups before the unfair support is backed off?

THAT is where the AFL has no argument or leg to stand on. It becomes obvious to all the driver is AFL turnover $$$$$$ and bonuses. Not helping struggling sides in expansion states.

 

[JasRulz63]

Australian Football is huge in QLD so why the need to keep giving leg ups to the Lions and Suns?
I'm worried about QLD becoming stronger than Victoria when it comes to producing talent for the AFL, and if the Lions and Suns continue to receive exclusive access to QLD talent it's only going to make the draft become more and more compromised.

Apart from father/sons (which teams like Geelong have also had their fair share of), Brisbane have had no academy players taken in the top 10 in the draft, only one in the top 20 (Hipwood at pick 14) and another three taken in the 20s with only one still at the club (Keays and Blake Coleman at 24 and Marshall at 25).

Sandy Dragons have produced more highly rated draft talent in last year's draft alone than during the existence of the Brisbane academy.

 

[paulige]

QLD is on track to surpass WA in these metrics within the next decade, after that is when I fear QLD will emerge as a threat to Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

Why the fear? Who or what is threatened?

Embrace the growth of the game.

 

[btdg]

Just like Brisbane losing cola it wont be long before the AFL cant keep a straight face gifting premiership sides unfair advantages when wooden spoon sides are struggling but get nothing.

Its all fine helping clubs at the bottom of the ladder. Three flags in a row and cola had to stop. How much success needs to be propped up by AFL leg ups before the unfair support is backed off?

THAT is where the AFL has no argument or leg to stand on. It becomes obvious to all the driver is AFL turnover $$$$$$ and bonuses. Not helping struggling sides in expansion states.

I don't think is it just abotu money.

I just think the AFL doesn't fully understand its own systems and the incentives and challenges it puts in place.

Like with the academies, the intent is fine - give clubs an incentive to develop players from non-traditional backgrounds. Same with father-son - keep a sense of 'club' mentality and make connections to history. This is all ok to me.

The issue is how these are implemented alongside other programs and not understanding the full advantage that is given.

The advantage with F/S and Academy players isn't JUST that you get them when you wouldn't otherwise. Brisbane getting Ashcroft last year after winning the premiership is crazy, but on its own, that's just lucky. But they also get:

• first right of refusal (Which means opposition teams will bid at a heavy discount to their full worth) on Ashfcroft and multiple other players
• the ability to match with vastly inferior picks; not just in the same round, but in lower rounds and at a further discount
• the ability to stack multiple academy players in one year
• the ability to trade picks around to maximise value - to get in 'ahead', trade to the following year, etc.

Brisbane got Ashcroft at pick 5. He was bid on lower than his true value because everyone knew that he was going to Brisbane. But the insane thing is that Brisbane started last year's off-season with pick 18, no second round pick, and only their own third round pick (54). They ended up with:

• Ashcroft with pick 5
• Sam Marshall, with a second first round pick (25 after bids)
• A third academy player, Ty Gallop, with pick 42

The crazy thing is that in the 2025 draft, they have traded out their second round pick, again, but have upgraded their third round pick AND added two extra third round picks.

So Brisbane started with pick 18 and 54. They were able to manipulate a broken system to turn that into three players worth vastly more AND upgrade their 2025 draft hand. That's far more advantage than intended

The system would work far better if:
1. F/S and academy bids were completed prior to the trade and draft period
2. Teams could nominate to use any of their picks (ie: for a Nick Daicos equivalent, any team could just say 'we bid our first round pick).
3. The F/S and academy club has to match starting with THEIR next available pick. If they don't have THEIR next pick (because they traded it, or used it already) then they cannot match

This would severely cut down the benefit. For Brisbane it would mean:
- matching Ashcroft at pick 5 (1878 pts) is still feasible, but they have to give up pick 18, 54, and take a downgrade in the 2025 draft (from say, pick 18 to 30ish).

• Not being able to match Marshall (because they don't have their next pick)
• They can't match Gallop because they used the picks on Ashcroft

Would make a much tougher choice for the premiers, as it should be.

 

[Bjo187]

Had anyone suggested 20 years ago that QLD will one day surpass SA in terms of participation, TV ratings and producing talent for the AFL they would have been laughed at.
QLD is on track to surpass WA in these metrics within the next decade, after that is when I fear QLD will emerge as a threat to Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

Academy players should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
Look at Sydney's side and about a third is made up of players from their academy.

AFL House money.
I'm not a fan of AFL House alienating die hard fans in traditional Australian Football heartland such as Victoria, but I'm sure the traditional clubs will make noise about the academies soon enough just as they did previously regarding the retention allowance and cost of living allowance.

Gee, imagine being a footy fan that fears the growth of our code nationally, what a disaster.

 

[GC2015]

Gee, imagine being a footy fan that fears the growth of our code nationally, what a disaster.

This is probably partly why the AFL are considering bringing back State of Origin. If Queensland and New South Wales can get to a point where their state teams could legitimately match it with Victoria then suddenly it wouldn't be such a boring competition. SA & WA never really had the population base to maintain dominance against the Vics, but that won't be an issue against the bigger states of QLD and NSW.

 

[Bjo187]

This is probably partly why the AFL are considering bringing back State of Origin. If Queensland and New South Wales can get to a point where their state teams could legitimately match it with Victoria then suddenly it wouldn't be such a boring competition. SA & WA never really had the population base to maintain dominance against the Vics, but that won't be an issue against the bigger states of QLD and NSW.

Watching your suns yesterday and the 4 gold coast locals from the 2023 draft, I was thinking in 5 years time the Queensland side will be really dangerous. Especially when you add the Ashcroft brothers etc. That's my hope that Queensland can play Victoria in a state match within the next 10 to 20 years.

 

[wcv1475]

I am a Collingwood supporter who just moved from Brisbane back to Melbourne, my kids played footy in Brisbane and the growth is huge, the skill level is great, I like the academies as they provide a great pathway and keeps kids from the Rugby Codes. My daughter this year is playing footy in Melb, and the league she is playing in was looking for players, yet the club we came from in Brisbane fielded 3 full girls teams in same age group so the growth is real and the standard is great. The Club in Brisbane also has a few boys who will head into the draft this year and likely get picked up, they are in the academy programs. I will say this about the NRL is maybe a lot of people watch it, but how many parents let the kids play full contact league.

 

[Taper]

Why the fear? Who or what is threatened?

Embrace the growth of the game.

The status of Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

While the availability of the players to all clubs will be debated, the biggest issue is in other states. These NSW and Qld academies have started to really fulfil their intent and churn out a lot of quality players.

Vic remains the nursery of football with around 50% of all players.

WA and SA have dropped off dramatically. What is going on here? The players are simply not being produced. Do the WAFL and SANFL still run footy at all levels as the AFL does in other states? If so, they have a real talent issue.

 

[paulige]

The status of Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

Why does this matter?

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Had anyone suggested 20 years ago that QLD will one day surpass SA in terms of participation, TV ratings and producing talent for the AFL they would have been laughed at.
QLD is on track to surpass WA in these metrics within the next decade, after that is when I fear QLD will emerge as a threat to Victoria as the number one Australian Football state.

Academy players should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
Look at Sydney's side and about a third is made up of players from their academy.

AFL House money.
I'm not a fan of AFL House alienating die hard fans in traditional Australian Football heartland such as Victoria, but I'm sure the traditional clubs will make noise about the academies soon enough just as they did previously regarding the retention allowance and cost of living allowance.

Who would have thought you would be in here having another little whine….. you still complaining about Brisbane getting access to low picks by finishing in the bottom 3?

 

[GC2015]

Watching your suns yesterday and the 4 gold coast locals from the 2023 draft, I was thinking in 5 years time the Queensland side will be really dangerous. Especially when you add the Ashcroft brothers etc. That's my hope that Queensland can play Victoria in a state match within the next 10 to 20 years.

I personally think Queensland could already field a pretty good state team that would be able to compete with the likes of SA & WA. Harris Andrews is legitimately a top 3 key defender in the league and partnering him with Jack Payne + Aliir Aliir would provide a great partnership/trio down back. Hipwood and Chol would cause some headaches in the forward line and I'd partner them with a young key forward in Jed Walter. Then I'd have Chol and Read rotating through the ruck and the Ashcroft boys would be instant inclusions into the midfield. Reigning Crows BnF winner Bean Keays and Geelong midfielder Jack Bowes likely go straight into the midfield as well. Plenty of other high quality players in other parts of the ground like 2024 AA Dayne Zorko in the backline, 2023 AA Charlie Cameron in the forward line, 2024 AFL premiership winger Jaspa Fletcher, Keidean Coleman, Sam Marshall, Jake Rogers, Will Graham, Leo Lombard etc.

 

[Bjo187]

I personally think Queensland could already field a pretty good state team that would be able to compete with the likes of SA & WA. Harris Andrews is legitimately a top 3 key defender in the league and partnering him with Jack Payne + Aliir Aliir would provide a great partnership/trio down back. Hipwood and Chol would cause some headaches in the forward line and I'd partner them with a young key forward in Jed Walter. Then I'd have Chol and Read rotating through the ruck and the Ashcroft boys would be instant inclusions into the midfield. Reigning Crows BnF winner Bean Keays and Geelong midfielder Jack Bowes likely go straight into the midfield as well. Plenty of other high quality players in other parts of the ground like 2024 AA Dayne Zorko in the backline, 2023 AA Charlie Cameron in the forward line, 2024 AFL premiership winger Jaspa Fletcher, Keidean Coleman, Sam Marshall, Jake Rogers, Will Graham, Leo Lombard etc.

Yeah I think it would be competitive with an s.a, but still lose at the moment. But in 5 years time it will surpass them and maybe W.A and in 10 years time maybe able to play against Vic. It lacks depth but the talent is all high end coming through.

Old mate taper needs to realise if qld become really good, he'll be able to see the mighty big V actually play someone in a competitive match again too.

 

[Obeanie1]

Gee, imagine being a footy fan that fears the growth of our code nationally, what a disaster.

That isnt the issue and you know it.

More than happy for the game to grow.

But creating a massively uneven playing field doing it. Not happy.

AFL did it before with COLA and created a triple premiership team close to unbeatable beefore they took that unfair adavantage away.

Is that how you want the game developed? Gifting selected sides such unfair advantages that other teams cant compete against the AFL favoured teams?

Because thats where we are heading again.

How much additional help shouod the premiers get when teams at the bottom struggling get nothing? Thats the issue.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Right up front, the AFL is one massive uneven playing field. IMO, it's the Melbourne teams who play predominately at Marvel that have the most disadvantages (North and St Kilda in particular). Every other team has home ground advantage or plays the big games at their MCG home ground. Some teams also have greater access to third party payments.

The Lions threepeat team would not have happened without Leigh Matthews. As an aside, Matthews also coached Collingwood's premiership drought breaking team in 1990, an achievement that seems to have been lost a bit in time. Anyway, the Lions weren't 'unbeatable' and never finished top of the ladder. In 2001, they beat Essendon who were the favourites, 2002 they nearly lost to Collingwood as favourites and in 2003 beat Collingwood who were favourites. Also lost the 2004 GF. Perhaps the Bears would have won some or all of these premierships, but we won't ever know. Weren't the Eagles first two premierships helped by having draft access to WA's best players in 1987?

The COLA was an advantage but it was taken away. Perhaps combined with the merger, it was too much in retrospect. However, most of the other AFL clubs were happy to jettison a founding club to Brisbane and never thought the club would amount to anything. Anyway, it is only conjecture that COLA was solely responsible for the GF wins - other great teams of the era like Geelong and Hawthorn also had players take less money to win GFs. After the premiership era, extremely poor club management (including losing a lot of money in the GFC), combined with an on-field decline, made the Lions into a basket case. This culminated in the 'go home five' (e.g. Yeo for pick 28) when nearly all of the high draft picks were given to GWS and GC. It would be like WCE losing five promising players this year for marginal draft compensation and then most of the top picks going to Tasmania for the next 3 years. It took a total club restructure and plenty of sole searching and hard work to turn the club around financially and culturally. Leaders like Greg Swann and Chris Fagan were integral. Interestingly, I think that the women's team pursuit of excellence also played a role.

On the Ashcroft brothers, we had Mark Murphey and Blakey (also could have gone to North) say no because they wanted to stay at home. As other posters have said, the other teams probably should have taken Levi earlier. Someone could have taken Sam Marshall in the top 10. The Lions are not the only team to have taken advantage of the old draft points system. Again, these were AFL rules, so blame their incompetence.

Finally, it is really important to have some local players in the QLD and NSW teams for two factors: (1) helps to (slightly) diminish the go home factor, and (2) makes the local communities more proud of their teams and provides inspiration to play and support the game. For the game is to continue to flourish in Qld, we need to make it attractive to play our code and not soccer, rugby union, rugby league or sitting at home playing computer games. If the game continues to evolve in Qld, perhaps access to the talent needs to be re-evaluated, but we are still a way off this.