Expansion QLD and NSW academies

[jonnobackpocket]

That isnt the issue and you know it.

More than happy for the game to grow.

But creating a massively uneven playing field doing it. Not happy.

AFL did it before with COLA and created a triple premiership team close to unbeatable beefore they took that unfair adavantage away.

Is that how you want the game developed? Gifting selected sides such unfair advantages that other teams cant compete against the AFL favoured teams?

Because thats where we are heading again.

How much additional help shouod the premiers get when teams at the bottom struggling get nothing? Thats the issue.

Yeah it was all COLA the three peat, you might want to have a look which players were already there before COLA. Also why didn’t Sydney dominate- they had COLA, surely if it was as big a deal as you make out they must have dominated as well? How many have GWS won?, they have COLA so they must have dominated at some point as well seeing as though it created such an uneven playing field.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

Ah yes it’s just great for the comp when we crate such an imbalance at the draft where we are already looking at potentially 6 first round picks tied to the Lions, GC and Swans academies.

At this point they may as well just scratch the draft.

 

[Taper]

Why does this matter?

Because all the talent from QLD is being directly funnelled into the Lions and Suns when said talent should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
It's an unfair advantage and you know it.

Yeah I think it would be competitive with an s.a, but still lose at the moment. But in 5 years time it will surpass them and maybe W.A and in 10 years time maybe able to play against Vic. It lacks depth but the talent is all high end coming through.

Old mate taper needs to realise if qld become really good, he'll be able to see the mighty big V actually play someone in a competitive match again too.

Growing the game can be done without screwing over clubs from Victoria, such as the club I happen to support.
Look at how many academy players are tipped to go in the first round of this year's draft, and you'll see the Lions, Suns, Swans and Giants are like pigs at the trough.

 

[paulige]

Because all the talent from QLD is being directly funnelled into the Lions and Suns when said talent should be accessible to all clubs via the draft.
It's an unfair advantage and you know it.

Growing the game can be done without screwing over clubs from Victoria, such as the club I happen to support.
Look at how many academy players are tipped to go in the first round of this year's draft, and you'll see the Lions, Suns, Swans and Giants are like pigs at the trough.

So it’s all fine and dandy while Victoria is the “number 1 football state”, but it is scary and fear-inducing when QLD ‘threatens’ to be. Why?

From memory the lions have one academy first rounder on their list - Hipwood.

No wonder we’re reigning premiers.

 

[Scotland]

While the availability of the players to all clubs will be debated, the biggest issue is in other states. These NSW and Qld academies have started to really fulfil their intent and churn out a lot of quality players.

Vic remains the nursery of football with around 50% of all players.

WA and SA have dropped off dramatically. What is going on here? The players are simply not being produced. Do the WAFL and SANFL still run footy at all levels as the AFL does in other states? If so, they have a real talent issue.

Has WA been that bad?

2024: 8 players drafted, two in the first round
2023: 11, four
2022: 9, five
2021: 15, four
2020: 10, three

I have heard that WAFL clubs don't have the development budgets they once did, but I don't know why that is and can't verify one way or the other.

 

[Bjo187]

Has WA been that bad?

2024: 8 players drafted, two in the first round
2023: 11, four
2022: 9, five
2021: 15, four
2020: 10, three

I have heard that WAFL clubs don't have the development budgets they once did, but I don't know why that is and can't verify one way or the other.

This will lift since the nga access rules have finally been changed. A club with west coasts money should be pouring millions into their academy for indigenous, asian and african talent, as it's one of the few competitive advantages they can get with their wealth.

 

[Scotland]

So it’s all fine and dandy while Victoria is the “number 1 football state”, but it is scary and fear-inducing when QLD ‘threatens’ to be. Why?

From memory the lions have one academy first rounder on their list - Hipwood.

No wonder we’re reigning premiers.

Doesn't really support the argument that you need academies then, does it?

I mean you drafted Rayner 1 and McCluggage 3 out of Victoria, signed Daniher (Victoria) as a free agent, traded for Neale (SA) and Dunkley (Vic). All of these moves point to recruiting good available players via the methods that exist in the AFL system. When players want to leave it's the system's fault but players wanting to join is good recruiting, strong culture etc? Give me a spell.

It's a kind of insulting to the rest of the competition for clubs to complain about lack of local talent then go out of their way to circumvent the intention of draft concessions for local players (see Tom Green, Logan McDonald) and target players from other clubs with no local connection. Player movement of Qld/NSW players to Vic/SA/WA suits the Qld/NSW fine when it is to their benefit.

What really irks fans is that Brisbane who are currently contenders had access to W Ashcroft 2 & Fletcher 12, then L Ashcroft 5 and Marshall 25 over two drafts in 3 years. Gold Coast who are on the up added 5 first round academy players over back to back drafts. Similarly the Bulldogs have been able to add Ugle-Hagan, Darcy, Croft and West in recent years. Meanwhile my team that is historically bad gets picks 1 and 30. Cool. Why even have a draft if you can make the GF and have a top 5 pick or have 4 first round picks in one year? Getting close to the point of just letting teams add 5 or 6 18 year olds a year and be done with it.

 

[paulige]

Doesn't really support the argument that you need academies then, does it?

I mean you drafted Rayner 1 and McCluggage 3 out of Victoria, signed Daniher (Victoria) as a free agent, traded for Neale (SA) and Dunkley (Vic). All of these moves point to recruiting good available players via the methods that exist in the AFL system. When players want to leave it's the system's fault but players wanting to join is good recruiting, strong culture etc? Give me a spell.

It's a kind of insulting to the rest of the competition for clubs to complain about lack of local talent then go out of their way to circumvent the intention of draft concessions for local players (see Tom Green, Logan McDonald) and target players from other clubs with no local connection. Player movement of Qld/NSW players to Vic/SA/WA suits the Qld/NSW fine when it is to their benefit.

What really irks fans is that Brisbane who are currently contenders had access to W Ashcroft 2 & Fletcher 12, then L Ashcroft 5 and Marshall 25 over two drafts in 3 years. Gold Coast who are on the up added 5 first round academy players over back to back drafts. Similarly the Bulldogs have been able to add Ugle-Hagan, Darcy, Croft and West in recent years. Meanwhile my team that is historically bad gets picks 1 and 30. Cool. Why even have a draft if you can make the GF and have a top 5 pick or have 4 first round picks in one year? Getting close to the point of just letting teams add 5 or 6 18 year olds a year and be done with it.

Supports the argument that the academies aren’t the first-rounder producing juggernaut they are made out to be. As I said, one for us. Just one.

Why bring F&S into this? Isn’t that lottery available to all clubs? Under the rules we got them at a great discount, sure - we did effectively burn all of our picks across those 3 drafts to do so.

Your historically bad team didn’t just get “picks 1 and 30”. You should list the bounty of picks you’ve enjoyed across multiple years, as you did for the Lions, Sun, and Dogs above.

Yes we drafted a couple of Victorians at 1 and 3 - I guess there wasn’t a plethora of QLD talent available to choose from.

Hmm, perhaps we should do something about that! We could call it an academy…

 

[Scotland]

Supports the argument that the academies aren’t the first-rounder producing juggernaut they are made out to be. As I said, one for us. Just one.

Why bring F&S into this? Isn’t that lottery available to all clubs? Under the rules we got them at a great discount, sure - we did effectively burn all of our picks across those 3 drafts to do so.

Oh no you burned picks.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said but every club would trade a bunch of later picks for a top 5 pick every year.

Your historically bad team didn’t just get “picks 1 and 30”. You should list the bounty of picks you’ve enjoyed across multiple years, as you did for the Lions, Sun, and Dogs above.

Yes it did. Those were our selections in 2023. Last year it was 3 and 30. Bit of a difference in having one pick inside 30 compared to four. Gold Coast were gifted Anderson to go with Rowell when they were shit. Which other team has been given pick 2 at AFL discretion?

When we finished last in 2010 and Gold Coast came in our picks were 4 and 29 with a compo pick under the rules at the time for winning less than 5 games. 2008 2nd last we were picking twice inside the top 20. 2001 3rd last we were one of 3 clubs picking twice inside the top 6 and our second round pick was 22. And in all the years we weren't shit we got the picks you would expect from a team that isn't shit. 2006 we won the flag in a 16 team comp and got pick 16. That is the draft doing its job.

I don't know how people keep a straight face saying it wasn't fair that clubs at the bottom of the ladder got two bites at the cherry in the first round, but it's perfectly OK for a team that played in the Grand Final to have pick 2, then finish top 4 the following year and have pick 3.

Yes we drafted a couple of Victorians at 1 and 3 - I guess there wasn’t a plethora of QLD talent available to choose from.

Hmm, perhaps we should do something about that! We could call it an academy…

Yes, two players whose junior development was done by someone else and if given the choice probably would've stayed in Victoria. But that's OK because we agree to have a national draft. For 4 states anyway.

Capitalise your profits, socialise your losses. That is how the Northern clubs treat the system. Given the choice between comparably rated players, most teams will lean towards the player from their state. Given the choice between a local talent and a Harley Reid or Horne-Francis that is a consensus pick, every team will go for the best available. All 18 clubs do the same thing but 4 of them play by different rules.

 

[Jirik13]

I would expect with rule changes influx of NGA players eventually.

If the clubs pay fair value for academy, NGA, F/S players (hopefully) who cares.

Having home grown talent on the team definitely promotes footy on Gold Coast.

 

[paulige]

Oh no you burned picks.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said but every club would trade a bunch of later picks for a top 5 pick every year.



Yes it did. Those were our selections in 2023. Last year it was 3 and 30. Bit of a difference in having one pick inside 30 compared to four. Gold Coast were gifted Anderson to go with Rowell when they were shit. Which other team has been given pick 2 at AFL discretion?

When we finished last in 2010 and Gold Coast came in our picks were 4 and 29 with a compo pick under the rules at the time for winning less than 5 games. 2008 2nd last we were picking twice inside the top 20. 2001 3rd last we were one of 3 clubs picking twice inside the top 6 and our second round pick was 22. And in all the years we weren't shit we got the picks you would expect from a team that isn't shit. 2006 we won the flag in a 16 team comp and got pick 16. That is the draft doing its job.

I don't know how people keep a straight face saying it wasn't fair that clubs at the bottom of the ladder got two bites at the cherry in the first round, but it's perfectly OK for a team that played in the Grand Final to have pick 2, then finish top 4 the following year and have pick 3.



Yes, two players whose junior development was done by someone else and if given the choice probably would've stayed in Victoria. But that's OK because we agree to have a national draft. For 4 states anyway.

Capitalise your profits, socialise your losses. That is how the Northern clubs treat the system. Given the choice between comparably rated players, most teams will lean towards the player from their state. Given the choice between a local talent and a Harley Reid or Horne-Francis that is a consensus pick, every team will go for the best available. All 18 clubs do the same thing but 4 of them play by different rules.

As I acknowledged, we got them at a great discount. And again - F&S are completely irrelevant to the discussion of academies.

What you are up in arms about is that over a long stretch of time we got Hipwood at pick 14, a few second rounders, and that’s about it.

So your historically bad team got picks 1, 3, 30, 30, plus whatever you got in 2022 as well. Not looking so dire anymore.

Which team that played in the grand final then got pick 2? And pick 3 the following year?

It is disadvantageous for there to be a much smaller pool of players from QLD in the draft pool (and talent pool overall). I’m glad the academies exist to help produce local talent.

 

[Bostonian]

As I acknowledged, we got them at a great discount. And again - F&S are completely irrelevant to the discussion of academies.

What you are up in arms about is that over a long stretch of time we got Hipwood at pick 14, a few second rounders, and that’s about it.

So your historically bad team got picks 1, 3, 30, 30, plus whatever you got in 2022 as well. Not looking so dire anymore.

Which team that played in the grand final then got pick 2? And pick 3 the following year?

It is disadvantageous for there to be a much smaller pool of players from QLD in the draft pool (and talent pool overall). I’m glad the academies exist to help produce local talent.

So what you're saying is you're doing a bad job of producing quality young players.

Sounds like the AFL needs to take over the academies.

 

[paulige]

So what you're saying is you're doing a bad job of producing quality young players.

Sounds like the AFL needs to take over the academies.

So the academies aren’t this outrageous advantage they’re made out to be? Noted.

 

[morsie]

So it’s all fine and dandy while Victoria is the “number 1 football state”, but it is scary and fear-inducing when QLD ‘threatens’ to be. Why?

From memory the lions have one academy first rounder on their list - Hipwood.

No wonder we’re reigning premiers.

Each of the Vic ,SA and WA Clubs have a large percentage of their list from their home states.The Northern clubs even with the Academies have a much lower percentage.Be honest people do you want to grow the game in the north or just have the Northern clubs act as feeder clubs to the big Vic clubs.I suspect it's the latter.

 

[Bostonian]

So the academies aren’t this outrageous advantage they’re made out to be? Noted.

Well going by what you stated they are failing. Your club is obviously incapable of developing talent for the rest of the league so you need to hand to over to someone who can.

Victorian clubs gave up their zones, time you did too.

If you produce enough you can then benefit from the come home factor, like every other club can.

 

[Scotland]

As I acknowledged, we got them at a great discount. And again - F&S are completely irrelevant to the discussion of academies.

Got them at a great discount. FMD that is the point of the thread.

Ignore F/S selections if you like but they are subject to the same bidding rules and they benefit two of the Northern clubs as much as they do anyone else.

What you are up in arms about is that over a long stretch of time we got Hipwood at pick 14, a few second rounders, and that’s about it.

So your historically bad team got picks 1, 3, 30, 30, plus whatever you got in 2022 as well. Not looking so dire anymore.

One pick every 30 when you are a 2-3 win team is pretty dire.

Which team that played in the grand final then got pick 2? And pick 3 the following year?

Sydney.

It is disadvantageous for there to be a much smaller pool of players from QLD in the draft pool (and talent pool overall). I’m glad the academies exist to help produce local talent.

It is disadvantageous for there to be a much smaller pool of players from WA and SA in the draft pool (and talent pool overall).

Most fans don't actually care where players on their list are from. It's not the 1990s any more.

More players from NSW, Qld, ACT. Tassie, NT, rural and regional areas... anywhere other than APS schools really - is great, but if they can stay where they are while every Harley Reid, JHF, Matt Rowell etc. is a free for all then why bother having a draft?

 

[paulige]

Well going by what you stated they are failing. Your club is obviously incapable of developing talent for the rest of the league so you need to hand to over to someone who can.

Victorian clubs gave up their zones, time you did too.

If you produce enough you can then benefit from the come home factor, like every other club can.

The academies are an unfair advantage but are simultaneously a failure. Okay.

I disagree that they’re failing, and nothing I said suggests they are.

Ah so if we produce enough then the go home factor can be equalised, but until then too bad for us? So it is okay when some clubs have advantages, but not others.

I would suggest it’s time to suck it up and move on - the whole system is full of inequities (such as the MCG grand final). If you’re looking for a perfectly level playing field you’re living in fantasy land.

 

[Bostonian]

The academies are an unfair advantage but are simultaneously a failure. Okay.

I disagree that they’re failing, and nothing I said suggests they are.

Ah so if we produce enough then the go home factor can be equalised, but until then too bad for us? So it is okay when some clubs have advantages, but not others.

I would suggest it’s time to suck it up and move on - the whole system is full of inequities (such as the MCG grand final). If you’re looking for a perfectly level playing field you’re living in fantasy land.

You're the one pointing out they are a failure. Well for your club.

So if they are a failure then it's best to put it in the hands of people who can make it succeed then yes?

Would you say Victoria relinquishing all the control of the junior programs to outside parties has worked well?

If you're not producing high end talent constantly then your program is the issue.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Well going by what you stated they are failing. Your club is obviously incapable of developing talent for the rest of the league so you need to hand to over to someone who can.

Victorian clubs gave up their zones, time you did too.

If you produce enough you can then benefit from the come home factor, like every other club can.

Yeah maybe we could send them to Carlton who obviously do an outstanding job of developing talent Even managed to turn Sam Walsh into a c grade ball butcher.

 

[Bostonian]

Yeah maybe we could send them to Carlton who obviously do an outstanding job of developing talent Even managed to turn Sam Walsh into a c grade ball butcher.

Maybe you should increase your football knowledge. It's very low.

Given nothing you said has any relevance to academies and zones.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Maybe you should increase your football knowledge. It's very low.

Given nothing you said has any relevance to academies and zones.

In your opinion that is. No you suggested the lions academy can’t develop players and should give it to someone who can. My point it that certainly wouldn’t be anything to do with Carlton. Low footy knowledge- smart enough to follow the lions and not Carlton, that was very smart I would say.

 

[Bostonian]

In your opinion that is. No you suggested the lions academy can’t develop players and should give it to someone who can. My point it that certainly wouldn’t be anything to do with Carlton. Low footy knowledge- smart enough to follow the lions and not Carlton, that was very smart I would say.

No shit it wouldn't be anything to do with us. That's why the best league for developing the countries best players has no links to AFL clubs. So there's no advantage to any team. Get it?

"smart enough to follow", sounds like plastic fan wank talk.

I've seen more flag wins than you have which is the funniest part of your attempted flex. So you're not that clever after all.

 

[Elixuh]

What do you want instead of academies to support growth of the game in NSW and Qld and an increase in the AFL talent pool?

 

[Maddo11]

So what you're saying is you're doing a bad job of producing quality young players.

Sounds like the AFL needs to take over the academies.

The AFL used to run them and they produced nothing except the occasional southern nsw player who was going to be drafted anyway (Walker, Bruest)

 

[Bostonian]

The AFL used to run them and they produced nothing except the occasional southern nsw player who was going to be drafted anyway (Walker, Bruest)

And back then the sets up were nothing like the professional ones that exist now. The pathways for junior players has ramped up to next level with how they prepare young players from early ages.