r15 rivalry - Collingwood v Carlton & Geelong v Hawthorn

[Goggin Our Best]

The Collingwood Carlton is -or more to the point was a great rivalry -i actually went to the 1970 grand final -and it was fantastic

But the passage of time changes everything -i mean when did they last play each other in a grand final -or any final -im thinking the 1981 gf -thats over 30 years ago -thats a hell of a long time ago

Collingwood had a great rivalry with Melbourne in the 1950s-but thats virtually non existent today

And if you go back even further -Collingwood had a great geographical rivalry with Fitzroy -where if you were born in one part of Smith St you were Collingwood -and if you were in another part of Smith St -you were Fitzroy

But like i say -time changes everything

 

[Catgirl]

Except I live in Geelong. Most of my friends are Geelong supporters.

So I've a fair idea what's happening in cat land.

I AM a Cats supporter. Try to tell any of your hardcore Cats supporting mates they've only hated Hawthorn for the past 10 matches.

The last football census said carlton supporter are on average the most affluent supporters in the AFL

That indicates a lack of teenagers.

That isn't exactly countering my argument.

So even though apparently nothings happened between our clubs in a long while, we can still create more passion and hatred throughout a crowd for each other than Geelong/Hawks can despite playing all this finals football.

That says it all really.

How are you measuring this "passion"? Got some kind of passion scale or something - or are your so called "Geelong mates" the foundation for your argument? Pretty weak hey. No point in continuing this debate if all you are going on is your Cats mates' opinions on Hawthorn...who may not even exist. For all we know you could be some 45 year old Moroccan curry chef in Alaska without any Cats supporting friends. The Net is a funny place.

Erhm that's what a rivalry is about, the fans intense dislike for each other, that's kind of how rivalries work yeah?

Oh well silly me for thinking that a footy rivalry had anything to do with footy!

You're really clutching at straws to convince everyone the Carlton-Collingwood rivalry is still relevant. Unfortunately you're not that convincing with the statistical analysis of
your 'Geelong friends'. I do not know any Hawks or Cats supporters who openly embrace the other team, and I don't have to prove it.

Your closest exhibits are their team boards.

 

[davis_756]

How many of them have actually meant anything? Even for the participating supporters?

The above statement proves you have not experienced a real rivalry, beating collingwood is more exciting then the birth of your first child. Not to mention the rivalry is not completely 1 sided, its 6-4 the pies way not 10-0.

 

[Aphrodite]

That works for me. Chances are most Hawk posters have witnessed more flags than any other club

I've witnessed SEVEN.

I win!!

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

The above statement proves you have not experienced a real rivalry, beating collingwood is more exciting then the birth of your first child. Not to mention the rivalry is not completely 1 sided, its 6-4 the pies way not 10-0.

ok

 

[Collingwood FC]

Will be at both games + Nth Melbourne vs Richmond. Will be a cracking round. Hope the Hawks can get up for my best mate who is coming from interstate for the round.

The Carlton-Collingwood rivalry has died off as those who were witness to the beginnings and development of the rivalry all those years ago have died off too. Should still be a great atmosphere even with both teams under performing there is a lot for both teams to play for.

 

[Collingwood FC]

They are expecting 90 000 to the Carlton - Collingwood clash, so it is hardly "dying off".

The two teams will continue to draw 75k + for decades, that doesn't mean the intense bitter hatred is still there for all those fans, it is for quite a few supporters especially the older ones. But the younger ones like me have little idea of the inter suburb battles that were waged at Victoria & Princes Parks for a century.

 

[ProudCat]

Last time I checked Hawthorn have over 13,000+ more members then Carlton yet are 100,000 behind in attendances for the year, so yes more members = more attendance

The media beat up Geelong vs Hawthorn has got over the last few years to get bums on seats has been excessive to say the least, you don't need to go to the game we all know hawthorn will be in control of the game and choke again.

Yeah it's a bit strange that the media would pump up games involving 2 of the strongest teams over that period, whom have played numerous cracking matches that a lot of people want to see. I find that very odd. Some of them finals also, which really don't need any pumping up - waste of good money channel 7.

Is it really that big a threat to you guys that another rivalry has grown into something quite fierce over the years? It's there, whether you want to admit it or not, but what does it matter? Would you like us to perhaps put on the banner "This rivalry brought to you by the great Carlton-Collingwood rivalry". There are more than just 2 clubs in the league. Just leave us to our rivalry and we'll leave you to yours.

Good day.

 

[Major Colvin]

Carlton/Collingwood have two of the biggest supporter bases (and historically successful teams) which has lasted despite the two teams not facing off in a final since 1988. The key point is that since then both clubs fortunes havent really coincided. During the 90's Carlton were good and Collingwood were pus, at the turn of the century - Carlton fell off a cliff just as Collingwood were resurgent under Malthouse. Despite the ladder disparities game have usually still garnered a fair bit of interest.

Geelong/Hawthorn is definitely a better modern day spectacle but can't claim the same overall rivalry of Carl/Coll because if either of both sides were in the bottom half of ladder I dont think it would maintain the same animosity between players and supporters. In reality the rivalry was very one-sided until the last 5 years - the HAwks beat the Cats consistently despite often being lower on the ladder - and then of course upsetting them in the 2008 Grand Final.

Look at the Sydney/West Coast rivalry from 05/06 - whilst it was great rivalry it was more to do with the player matchups at the time and therefore was ephemeral. If these two teams play each-other now I hardly take notice and I doubt supporters really have they genuine hatred for eachother still.

 

[nowhereneargeelong]

It's quality not quantity that matters.

Hawks v cats miles ahead.

 

[Glasgow Hawk]

Hawks have huge outs too and haven't been in great form, same as us. We both lifted considerably this week, so are in a somewhat similar vein of form at the moment. No one is CLEARLY ahead.

Also Chappy has barely been in the side all year so he's no excuse and Corey will play.


We have more than one forward you know, and actually have a more even spread than the Hawks, averaging more goalkickers.

Well I know that last week we had 11 goalkickers, so I would say that it a pretty even spread.

 

[Catgirl]

Well I know that last week we had 11 goalkickers, so I would say that it a pretty even spread.

I said on average.

 

[Hawkk]

Carlton/Collingwood have two of the biggest supporter bases (and historically successful teams) which has lasted despite the two teams not facing off in a final since 1988. The key point is that since then both clubs fortunes havent really coincided. During the 90's Carlton were good and Collingwood were pus, at the turn of the century - Carlton fell off a cliff just as Collingwood were resurgent under Malthouse. Despite the ladder disparities game have usually still garnered a fair bit of interest.

Geelong/Hawthorn is definitely a better modern day spectacle but can't claim the same overall rivalry of Carl/Coll because if either of both sides were in the bottom half of ladder I dont think it would maintain the same animosity between players and supporters. In reality the rivalry was very one-sided until the last 5 years - the HAwks beat the Cats consistently despite often being lower on the ladder - and then of course upsetting them in the 2008 Grand Final.

Look at the Sydney/West Coast rivalry from 05/06 - whilst it was great rivalry it was more to do with the player matchups at the time and therefore was ephemeral. If these two teams play each-other now I hardly take notice and I doubt supporters really have they genuine hatred for eachother still.

I'm not sure the West Coast V Sydney precedence holds sway. Geelong and Hawthorn, though probably not as fierce as today, has been a visible rivalry since the mid 1980s (and at a stretch perhaps for a period in the early 60's?)

1963: Geelong defeated Hawthorn 3 times in 4 weeks to win the flag. This was Geelong last piece of silverware for 43 years (Hawthorn won 8 day flags, 9 night flags and 2 NFL titles in the corresponding period, a true case of sliding doors)
1985: Matthews rearranges Neville Bruns jaw
1987: Hawthorn end Geelong's season at the death in round 22
1989: Two of the best games of all time
1991: The Hawks defeated Geelong by 2 points in a Semi Final on their way to another flag
1992, 1995, 1996, 1999: The Hawks pull off a string of four upset wins at Kardina Park
2000: The Hawks upset Geelong in the first 5th V 8th Elimination final staged
2002: Hawthorn end Geelong's season with a win in round 22
2007 - 2013: 13 games decided by an average margin of 9.5

Admittedly the rivalry lay dormant for another of years (and for this reason it's not a patch on Carlton V Collingwood) but the circumstances behind the rivalry is completely different to West Coast V Sydney notwithstanding West Coast's fade in 2008 which went along way to putting the breaks on the rivalry.

Beside Essendon, Id probably classify Geelong as our greatest rivalry and even than its pretty line ball between Geelong and Essendon these days.

 

[Glasgow Hawk]

I said on average.

And I think on average we have done ok this year too.
Most weeks on average we have had 8-10 individual goalkickers.

 

[Catgirl]

And I think on average we have done ok this year too.
Most weeks on average we have had 8-10 individual goalkickers.

I'm not saying you have a bad spread. I am saying ours is a bit better than yours on average, having calculated the stats.

 

[Glasgow Hawk]

I'm not saying you have a bad spread. I am saying ours is a bit better than yours on average, having calculated the stats.

Do tell!!

 

[Catgirl]

Do tell!!

Hawks average 8.3 goalkickers on average, we average 9.5 goalkickers. Only marginally better, but IIRC Hawks have had all their goals of 2013 kicked by only 23 players, whereas Geelong have had theirs spread over 32 players.

Means nothing come Saturday though, and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[DopeMaster]

Tis a very strange dick-measuring contest over rivalry size developing in this thread i must say...

Personally, despite not being around to enjoy the historical development of the inner-city, have's/have not's, rivalry between Carlton and the Pies. It is certainly something that has been ingrained in me, passed down through the generations of a Collingwood mad family, so that the hatred burns as bright as ever...

It will be interesting to see if the Geelong and Hawks rivalry can have the same kind of staying power. I certainly think it is the best rivalry going around in recent years, but a decade or two without constant close and excellent quality games, finals showdowns etc should reveal the true nature of the beast. I for one hope that it keeps its heat, its turned into a fantastic fixture, and one of the matches of the home and away season that i really look forward to.

 

[Glasgow Hawk]

Hawks average 8.3 goalkickers on average, we average 9.5 goalkickers. Only marginally better, but IIRC Hawks have had all their goals of 2013 kicked by only 23 players, whereas Geelong have had theirs spread over 32 players.

Means nothing come Saturday though, and I'm looking forward to it.

Very true and I am looking forward to it (I think ).. Don't know if I could stand another narrow loss.

 

[Duffman95]

I think that a match between two meddling, average teams will most likely outdraw 1st v 2nd says a bit.
Carlton v Collingwood is cross-generational, I've been lucky enough to see these games at suburban grounds, Collingwood's 100 year game, Mick McGuane's goal, heck even last years game in round 3 was about as satisfied as I've been for some time watching footy. The hatred is real and has been there for basically as long as Collingwood has existed. The fact that these games haven't amounted to much in regards to finals or ladder positions over the years has hurt the outside interest in these games, but it hasn't bothered the vast majority of Carlton and Collingwood supporters.

Just wish the PR flogs from both clubs would stay out of it.

Reading through this thread some of the justifications for Hawthorn v Geelong is a bit retrospective, there's been moment but there's been great lulls which seem to have been ignored, whereas Carlton v Collingwood has remained while both teams have been at opposite ends of the spectrum the last 20 years. Without a doubt Geelong v Hawthorn is the most eagerly anticipated match this round for neutrals, but whether it becomes Carlton v Collingwood or Sydney v West Coast will only be revealed over a period of 10, 20, 30 years.

 

[Big Kahuna Boot]

..let's face it, real rivalries are born on grand final day.. ..not sure about how many times cats vs hawks has occurred and what the results point to.. ..but blues vs pies goes as 6 GF matches, pies won the first, blues have won the following five matches.. ..in the first GF that the pies won, a huge brawl broke out, with 2 players suspended for 18 months, and another 2 players suspended for 12 months.. ..blues vowed to never forget.. ..how's that for the original pact [pertaining to gf's].. ..in regards to normal finals matches, they've faced off in 22, blues winning 14, pies 8..

 

[gaelictiogar]

The Collingwood Carlton is -or more to the point was a great rivalry -i actually went to the 1970 grand final -and it was fantastic

But the passage of time changes everything -i mean when did they last play each other in a grand final -or any final -im thinking the 1981 gf -thats over 30 years ago -thats a hell of a long time ago

Collingwood had a great rivalry with Melbourne in the 1950s-but thats virtually non existent today

And if you go back even further -Collingwood had a great geographical rivalry with Fitzroy -where if you were born in one part of Smith St you were Collingwood -and if you were in another part of Smith St -you were Fitzroy

But like i say -time changes everything

The Yankees could play the Red Sox after both failing for 30 years and it woudl be epic. Similarly in our sport. the inner suburbs trio of Carlton Collingwood and Richmond have always made for epic finals and always will. If Carlton and Collingwood play a PF or GF prefer to 30 years of history to be instantly forgotten. If Richmond played either the city would buzz like a chainsaw.

 

[andypie]

And then the big one the following week - Gold Coast vs Richmond.

Boy oh boy wowee some big games coming up.

Why would that be a big one. It has always been a Gold Coast win in the past.

 

[andypie]

Carlton Collingwood has always been the biggest rivalry in footy to me,now add the Malthouse factor and its even bigger. But Hawthorn Geelong are on a par now given the Kennett curse and the fact it is 1st v 2nd. Outside our own teams, this is the Grand Final we all want to see.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I think that a match between two meddling, average teams will most likely outdraw 1st v 2nd says a bit.
Carlton v Collingwood is cross-generational, I've been lucky enough to see these games at suburban grounds, Collingwood's 100 year game, Mick McGuane's goal, heck even last years game in round 3 was about as satisfied as I've been for some time watching footy. The hatred is real and has been there for basically as long as Collingwood has existed. The fact that these games haven't amounted to much in regards to finals or ladder positions over the years has hurt the outside interest in these games, but it hasn't bothered the vast majority of Carlton and Collingwood supporters.

Just wish the PR flogs from both clubs would stay out of it.

Reading through this thread some of the justifications for Hawthorn v Geelong is a bit retrospective, there's been moment but there's been great lulls which seem to have been ignored, whereas Carlton v Collingwood has remained while both teams have been at opposite ends of the spectrum the last 20 years. Without a doubt Geelong v Hawthorn is the most eagerly anticipated match this round for neutrals, but whether it becomes Carlton v Collingwood or Sydney v West Coast will only be revealed over a period of 10, 20, 30 years.

Geel v Hawks far far surpasses Swans v Eagles