R8 Team better than R1

[FrediKanoute]

What we pay him is irrelevant, it's a sunk cost, even if we sack him we'd have to pay him out and it would still count in our salary cap so the only issue is "is he be in our best 22?" Of course he is.

I disagree. If you picked the team on form then Jade is not currently in our best 22. Grant is clearly the preferred CHB and whilst you could squeeze Jade in as a 3rd tall, when available Morris and Hargrave are clearly better options.

Up forward I'm not certain who Jade would replace on current form. Whilst we do need a tall down there you would have to say that Morgan or Bowden would be a bigger chance of coming into the team at the minute.

Jade needs to pull his finger out and start playing the footy he is capable of. When playing well he would be in our best 22, but at the moment I'd prefer Grant, Morgan, Harris, Hargarve, Bowden, Walsh and Wight ahead of him.

 

[tha dogfather]

What we pay him is irrelevant, it's a sunk cost, even if we sack him we'd have to pay him out and it would still count in our salary cap so the only issue is "is he be in our best 22?" Of course he is.

On paper he's in our best 22, on form he isn't.

I relation to the price tag - he put it on himself, it's his responsibility to deliver

 

[Top Dog]

Keiran McGuiness probably has got something

He'll get his opportunity soon... It's up to him whether he takes that opportunity. Has alot of ability in my eyes.

 

[ErnieSigley]

I disagree. If you picked the team on form then Jade is not currently in our best 22. Grant is clearly the preferred CHB and whilst you could squeeze Jade in as a 3rd tall, when available Morris and Hargrave are clearly better options.

You pick a team on form then Jade is in front on Walsh, Wight and Skipper.
No doubt he is in our best 22 on form/balance/experience/talent/etc.

 

[Red House]

You pick a team on form then Jade is in front on Walsh, Wight and Skipper.
No doubt he is in our best 22 on form/balance/experience/talent/etc.

Wouldn't have thought he is in front of Skipper at the moment.

We need some sort of back up ruckman in the side, and Rawlings just can't ruck. In that way, i'd put Skipper in front of Jade.

 

[ErnieSigley]

Wouldn't have thought he is in front of Skipper at the moment.

We need some sort of back up ruckman in the side, and Rawlings just can't ruck. In that way, i'd put Skipper in front of Jade.

We are talking form are we? Well on form Skipper should not have been promoted.
Thankfully form is not the only factor the selection team picks players on.

 

[Gooka]

It's as much about form as it is about team balance with who we're playing the next week, as well as who Rocket thinks is going to take us to a flag...

having said that... jade is 50/50... if he could play his best, Rd 1 2004 type footy then he's in, if he could play his 'every game since then' form... he might struggle.

 

[FrediKanoute]

having said that... jade is 50/50... if he could play his best, Rd 1 2004 type footy then he's in, if he could play his 'every game since then' form... he might struggle.

This is the problem with Jade.......he is NOT playing like R1 2004. If he was he woudl definitely be in the team. Jade showed nothing over the first 6 weeks of the season. He couldn't cement a spot in the forward line and was serviceable in the backline. Is it s coincidence that since Bowdo, Bandy and Jade have been replaced we are playing much better footy?

As for Skipper at least the guy has presented and battled for his position. He hasn't been outstanding, but he's had more of a contribution in 2 games than Jade did in 6.

Walsh/Wight.....the jury is still out on these guys. They deserve more than one game, but again what both did in their brief appearances was encouraging. I haven't been that encouraged by jade this year.

 

[scooter600x]

Walsh/Wight.....the jury is still out on these guys. They deserve more than one game, but again what both did in their brief appearances was encouraging. I haven't been that encouraged by jade this year.

How does this work?

Walsh 70 mins 2 kicks, 3 marks 1 hb. If Rawlings returned those stats (and he never has since he's been with us) there would be 50 threads screaming the place down.

Jade has done more than either of those guys did in every game he's played.

No doubt players that are drafted by a club get marked much easier than those recruited to a club.

 

[Gooka]

No doubt players that are drafted by a club get marked much easier than those recruited to a club.

Probably also the fact that it was their first ever AFL game and they have miles potential to improve given the experience, while Jade is in his 'prime' might have something to do with it... I dunno.

 

[FrediKanoute]

How does this work?

Walsh 70 mins 2 kicks, 3 marks 1 hb. If Rawlings returned those stats (and he never has since he's been with us) there would be 50 threads screaming the place down.

Jade has done more than either of those guys did in every game he's played.

No doubt players that are drafted by a club get marked much easier than those recruited to a club.

Walsh has played 1 game of footy in his whole career. Rawlings has played closer to 150.

Wlash has played 1 game in the seniors this season. Rawlings played 6 games.

Walsh's 3 possessions resulted in 1 goal which he kicked and another which he had a hand in. Rawlings recruited to the club as a FF and saviour of our forward line woes has kicked 2 goals in 6 games.

Simply Jade hasn't done enough for a player of his experience.

 

[scooter600x]

Walsh has played 1 game of footy in his whole career. Rawlings has played closer to 150.

Wlash has played 1 game in the seniors this season. Rawlings played 6 games.

Walsh's 3 possessions resulted in 1 goal which he kicked and another which he had a hand in. Rawlings recruited to the club as a FF and saviour of our forward line woes has kicked 2 goals in 6 games.

Simply Jade hasn't done enough for a player of his experience.

You keep qualifying your comments "...for a player with his experience". His experience is irrelevant. Right now is Jade Rawlings more value to the team than Tim Walsh. Obviously yes.

 

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

On paper he's in our best 22, on form he isn't.

I relation to the price tag - he put it on himself, it's his responsibility to deliver

And we accepted those demands. If our recruiting team thought he was overpriced, we could've passed on him.
Given our tactics to secure the deal, and his retiscence to want to join us initially, I think it was equally fair for him to try and demand the best salary he could get.

I also think we took a big risk in trying to convert him into a Key Forward, when obviously there are technical flaws in his kicking for goal, and he had played his best football for the Hawks as a marking defender, who could fill an occiasional tactical role up forward.

 

[alwaysadog]

Teams improve or go backwards during a season for a number of reasons. We seem to have begun an exercise where many are using this thread as an excuse to drag out their prejudices about various players, so we have only focussed on changes to personnel. I'm more interested to changes within the personnel.

I would contend and every player interviewed in recent times is unanimous about one thing, that the biggest change to the side that goes into battle on the SCG on Sunday and the side that played the old Wobblies in the first is a change that has occurred betwen the ears of those taking part, some of whom will have been totally written off as duds or worse by my friendly posters.

It's time to forget old prejudices, these were formed and may have seemed reasonable in a different era. What we need to do is to analyse the genuine gains so that when things don't go so well, as surely they won't every week, we can still measure the extent to which we have improved, rather than writing the whole thing off.

How are we going to measure achievement this season? Is it going to be by attributing assumptions to the coach that he has never uttered but that confirm ones predelictions? Or is it going to be by fair and rational evidence-based discussion? I hope the latter prevails.

 

[footscray1973]

How are we going to measure achievement this season? Is it going to be by attributing assumptions to the coach that he has never uttered but that confirm ones predelictions? Or is it going to be by fair and rational evidence-based discussion? I hope the latter prevails.

Well put, so do I, but people will always have their favourites, and their scape-goats, especially on here. Try starting a thread on Harrison, Johnson, Hargrave or Smith and see how much fair and rational thought appears - two of those are scape-goats, while the other two are apparently "untouchable", never mind the fact that in the last few seasons all 4 have been responsible for some courageous acts, and also some poor decision making and lack of team play - equally under Eade as under Rohde, but some people just can't see it. It's the nature of the human mind.... I think it's time for bed now, otherwise this post will get all philosophical, must have been the red wine....

 

[alwaysadog]

Well put, so do I, but people will always have their favourites, and their scape-goats, especially on here. Try starting a thread on Harrison, Johnson, Hargrave or Smith and see how much fair and rational thought appears - two of those are scape-goats, while the other two are apparently "untouchable", never mind the fact that in the last few seasons all 4 have been responsible for some courageous acts, and also some poor decision making and lack of team play - equally under Eade as under Rohde, but some people just can't see it. It's the nature of the human mind.... I think it's time for bed now, otherwise this post will get all philosophical, must have been the red wine....

It's still worth the effort to try to get rational debate. Hope the head is OK and the red wine was even better.

 

[Red House]

We are talking form are we? Well on form Skipper should not have been promoted.
Thankfully form is not the only factor the selection team picks players on.

Not sure what your point is. I think i agree with you though.

I'm suggesting if it's a toss up between Jade & Skip, then Skip should get the nod because he brings something to the team that Jade can't, even though, Jade is probably a better footballer.

 

[FrediKanoute]

You keep qualifying your comments "...for a player with his experience". His experience is irrelevant. Right now is Jade Rawlings more value to the team than Tim Walsh. Obviously yes.

I really struggle with how you can say that he is more important to the team. Since dropping Jade the team has gone on to play much more attractive and accountable football and above all else have won both of the games since he was dropped.

In regards value to the team the fact that the selectors have seen to incude him as a possible interchange player to replace the injured Walsh would to me indicate that at best he is regarded as being of equal value to Walsh. Query whether Rawlings wuld have been included in the squad had Walsh not got injured.....a hypothetical that I doubt we can answer.

On the the point of experience I think that this is the main issue. Eade's mandate this term was to work out whcih players could play, where they could play and whether they were long term prospects. This would be necessity involve blooding younger players and giving them EXPERIENCE. You have to qualify Walsh's and Rawling's value by the amount of experience that they respectively have. Why? Walsh's value to the team lies in the extent to which he can continue to develop as a senior AFL player and be a core part of the Doggies side for the next 10 years. Rawling's value lies in his ability to get back into the senior team and produce consistent performances at a level where actually contributes to team success.

I hope Rawlings makes it back. But personally I'd sooner see a guy like Walsh be given the opportunity over the balance of the season to really find his feet in AFL and become an important part of the team much like Big Will did last year and Harris the year before.

 

[scooter600x]

I really struggle with how you can say that he is more important to the team. Since dropping Jade the team has gone on to play much more attractive and accountable football and above all else have won both of the games since he was dropped.

Aha! Since Luke Darcy has been out we've been winning - conclusion: Darcy is a dud.

On the the point of experience I think that this is the main issue. Eade's mandate this term was to work out whcih players could play, where they could play and whether they were long term prospects. This would be necessity involve blooding younger players and giving them EXPERIENCE. You have to qualify Walsh's and Rawling's value by the amount of experience that they respectively have. Why? Walsh's value to the team lies in the extent to which he can continue to develop as a senior AFL player and be a core part of the Doggies side for the next 10 years. Rawling's value lies in his ability to get back into the senior team and produce consistent performances at a level where actually contributes to team success

Of course Walsh and Wight need experience but their performances with Werribee did not justify promotion and their contribution to the team on Saturday was minimal (look out Scooter, here they come). Had say, Jade or Ben Harrison performed like that this board would have melted.

Playing Walsh and Wight together meant we were basically playing two short and we got away with it. Beauty, they will be better for it.

I do understand the reasons for dropping Jade back (he was good last Sunday BTW) and thought giving Walsh a game was a good encourement award, but Jade is a far better player than Walsh and at 27 is not quite ready for the old folks home just yet.

The guts of it is that it's great to blood new players but a balance has to be reached between picking a side for the future and picking a side to win today, otherwise there would be no reason to leave Chris Grant in the side.

 

[Red House]

I think you're under rating Wights influence when in the ruck when on and what he bought to the side. The Minson/Skipper/Wight ruck rotation won out in the end because Hale had to keep coming up against fresh guys.

Only problem being, only Skipper is capable of playing in a key position, and we can't really afford to carry 2 to 3 ruckmen.

 

[scooter600x]

I think you're under rating Wights influence when in the ruck when on and what he bought to the side. The Minson/Skipper/Wight ruck rotation won out in the end because Hale had to keep coming up against fresh guys.

He played 24 minutes. Skipper only played 60, Minson 42. I realise Will was getting chopped up but if Skipper can only ruck for 60 minutes a game he needs to get fitter.

 

[FrediKanoute]

I think you're under rating Wights influence when in the ruck when on and what he bought to the side. The Minson/Skipper/Wight ruck rotation won out in the end because Hale had to keep coming up against fresh guys.QUOTE]

I think you make a great point!! Hale was murdering us not only in the ruck, but around the ground. With Eade capable of throwing a third guy at him gave us the chance to wear him down.

If Walsh hadn't been injured I wonder whether Wight would have been dropped altogether from the team this week or whether it would have been Walsh who was omitted or whether both would have stayed.

 

[FrediKanoute]

Getting back to the point of the thread which was why and the round 8 team was better than the round 1 team, personally I think its got a lot to do with attitude and self belief.

Guys like Skipper, Minson, Gilbee, McMahon and even Smith, Grant and Johnno are playing now like they actually believe that the message Eade was trying to instill will work.

Guys like Hargrave, Skipper, Cross and Gilbee are thriving on the fact that the coach has confidence in their abilities and in the case of Cross, Gilbee and Hargrave are delivering regularly, whilst in the case of Skipper has shown enough in his 2 games to suggest that he too will develop further.

Then you just have the icing on the cake in terms of Murphy, Gia and Cooney who have just gone up a knotch especially in the last two games. The important thing in both the last two games since Darcy went down is that there have been no passengers. Even guys who have had limited game time (ie Power, Ray, Wight) have all had some positive impact when they have gotten on.

 

[alwaysadog]

Getting back to the point of the thread which was why and the round 8 team was better than the round 1 team, personally I think its got a lot to do with attitude and self belief.

Exactly. It is often remarked that the difference between the top and the bottom teams are not great when ability alone is assessed. Look at us. No great changes to the list but a much more sustained and competitive approach based predominanyly on changes between the ears.