Ratten, good bad and indifferent

[TerryWallet]

Players will come and go and some will be sacked for performance, we call it traded or delisted, coaches get sacked, they shouldnt, you would think that we would be able to judge the length a contract should run then just not renew if we think we can do better, and boards will come and go, members elected or not......its not about the name of the candidate, whether coach, player, pres, ceo, comms manager or cleaner.....its about core values. Ours suck. Its a millionaires club which allows the proletariat to join and I believe we are beholden to the few. I dont share those values. I dont much like how we make our money to survive as a club. I dont like that the money keeps us in subservience to it and and I especially dont like that one of the millionaires himself tried to show us how to free ourselves and we ignored the sage advise and are where we are. We will continue to arrive at the same place over and over because we refuse to heed the lessons the very recent past has taught us.

This isnt some temporary fog that will lift from me. It is a deeply rooted belief that the club ought be a community based organisation and not beholden to a select few as it has been since the Harris then Elliot days. So long as it remains so I can find no further place in it. It is a debauched place that stinks to high heaven of the corruption that money wrought's. I accepted in the past that that is what we were, and shame on me for doing so, but I did. The world changed and we did not. We still have not. The AFL wont let us fail, we are Goldman Sachs too big to fail because it means the AFL itself is failing, but its not for me any more. There are different ways that clubs can be run, not beholden to faceless money men. Other clubs are doing it. It does not mean rich supporters dont donate, they do, but they dont insist on having their way over the core values of the institution.

I will remain a barracker, I wont be a supporter of them until they change. They wont. They will continue with the arrogant "we demand success, heres the money to prove it" scum they are now, back room deals will continue to be the way things are done.

I am done. I wont speak to this topic again. I may hang around the forums as a fan, but my passion is gone.

I agree with the sentiment of this post entirely. I have always been opposed to "the Carlton Way" but i was brought up a Carlton fan and there is nothing i can do about it. I barracked for Walls, for Doull, for Bucks, for Dominator, for Harmesy, for Sticks, for Rhys, for Ratts. I barrack for Carlton. Fullstop.

However, i also am of the opinion that Brett Ratten was only an average coach and needed to be replaced.

I wanted him replaced before this current contract.

That has now been done and i will continue barracking for Carlton although continuing to scorn the "ol boys", mentality that 40year smacked down beautifully.

 

[The Coach]

Say what you want about Bartlett, but he said 2 things today that stuck to me.

1) We missed finals because of Judd's suspension.

I'm thinking to myself can this guy possibly have any less of a clue? We won 3/4 without Judd and the one we lost was against a top of the table Sydney outfit and we had key players missing in that one.

2) Carlton are obsessive with winning a flag.

I find myself surprised that something he said actually makes sense to me. They want a flag and they will stop at nothing to get it. The problem is this isn't the 70's, they have sacrificed integrity and honour which is something that no club should ever sacrifice. Anybody who ever puts on a Carlton guernsey may find it hard to give his all for the club knowing that if you are no longer needed they turf you out. That's what this obsession has done imo. Nobody can give more than Ratten has and look how they treated him, what's the guarantee that they won't do the same to our future champions? I'm sure Judd isn't stupid and is now realising this. He will steer well clear of this club once he retires mark my words.

But this has always been the way. Barassi - always an easy target for 'loyalty' debates addressed this with his players (and coaches are no different) back in the 70's! See short version in my new sig (coming soon). He too was obsessed with premierships. I am not sure about how much integrity has been sacrificed by the club as opposed to the media but I do know that making hard decisions are not something that everyone can make.

 

[The Toad]

Did you even read what I wrote under it? I clearly disagreed with that comment of his.

!

My apologies, I didn't see that.

But being obsessive leads to rash decisions and can in turn hurt the club more than help.

We'll see if it's rubbish or not, let's see if Judd ever returns to this club in any capacity. Let's see. They've based their belief that MM is better purely on the fact that he's coached to flags in the past. What they're forgetting is 1 in 16 years isn't really impressive and Ratten was only given 5 years to turn us around from a basket case on field? lol please. They've caved in to the stupid supporters that would call for Ratten's head after each and every loss, you know the same people that were nowhere to be found last year?

Malthouse better get us a flag!

I was refering more to the loss of integrity comment. But I agree MM better win us a flag, there will be a shit load of pressure on him to improve us from his first season.

 

[dumb]

The longer I watched that the more filled with loathing and disgust I had for the club. Lost me. Wont be around next year. I am pretty much done with them.

is hilarious, when combined with all the invective thrown around re: support. sticking fat.

i remain non-committal about ratts or any new coach. i have nothing to gain from emotional investment in a coach, and the saga is beyond my control.
kernahan has never convinced me at all.

 

[bourbons]

Wow this has been handled badly. Seems we've just caved in to external media pressure and the board also has to take responsibility. Why the hell couldn't this be done after the season, its not like Malthouse is going anywhere. Busy at work so missed the presser, was Sticks asked about the comprehensive 'end of season review' that was promised about 48 hours ago? My only hope in all this is it was Ratts himself who insisted it be brought to a head and done quickly.

Otherwise, geez what clusterf#&k.

Frank Costa and Brian Cook kept the faith in a very similar situation with Mark Thompson. We know how that turned out.

Agree that a review should have taken place but, sorry, soooooo sick of hearing stuff like this. Murphy, as good as he is, isn't Gary Ablett. Gibbs sure as shit isn't Jimmy Bartel and Jamison isn't Matty Scarlett. Pretty sure we won't be drafting a Joel Selwood next year either. I could go on but you get the point, not even remotely similar lists or circumstances.

I would be worried about that as well. Considering that Ratts is very well liked by the majority of the players with only a small number of dissenters, I could see a number of them wanting out at the end of their next contract.

Pity they didn't turn up with that attitude vs Gold Coast. Would be beyond weak if anything like that occured, seeing as it was the players fault things ended the way they did.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

I was refering more to the loss of integrity comment. But I agree MM better win us a flag, there will be a shit load of pressure on him to improve us from his first season.

They gave Ratten an unconditional 2 year deal. Now they haven't honoured it. Instead they have sacked a club champion on the back of one season where things didn't work out and a lot of it wasn't just his fault.

They were talking to Malthouse long before they announced Ratten's sacking you'd be a fool to believe otherwise.

Like I've already said:

They say they haven't been speaking to Malthouse, but "(awkward pause... ) it's a close call" that Malthouse's availability played in their decision.

I am NOT going to be fooled by this tripe.

 

[The Toad]

They gave Ratten an unconditional 2 year deal. Now they haven't honoured it. Instead they have sacked a club champion on the back of one season where things didn't work out and a lot of it wasn't just his fault.
.

Agree, he could not have done more with the amount of injuries we had. But I still believe they had to do it the way it was done due to Ratten telling his family who leaked it to the press. Ratten was the one who initiated the talks about his future, and rightly so, but otherwise it would have been done at the end of the year.

They were talking to Malthouse long before they announced Ratten's sacking you'd be a fool to believe otherwise.
.

Once again I totally agree, I think MM has already agreed to coach us and the deal was done a while back.

Like I've already said:
They say they haven't been speaking to Malthouse, but "(awkward pause... ) it's a close call" that Malthouse's availability played in their decision.

I am NOT going to be fooled by this tripe.

I dont think anyone is, as i posted earlier, you don't get rid of a leader without having a replacement ready.

 

[Sin City]

But I still believe they had to do it the way it was done due to Ratten telling his family who leaked it to the press.

I don't actually believe this happened mate.

 

[DamoESP]

While it sucks that he was sacked like this (and I dont agree with the way its been handle at all).....don't forget, He just got a $500K paycheck and is free to work elsewhere next year...not exactly a total bum deal on his behalf....

 

[Blue Flame]

What a morning...

its about core values. Ours suck.

40YB, I think you and I have seen eye to eye on this forum more than most. Right now, as ODN, you and many others are suggesting, the influence of certain powerbrokers at the club is sickening. They are self-serving, and I doubt they realise how much they are hurting the club.

But, 40YB, it is a club. Of players, of members, of supporters, of families, of hope, of passion, of glory. A club of which you have been a part for longer than my lifetime, something for which I envy and respect you. I hope you can reconsider passing up the chance to let that continue. These powerbrokers might be pulling the strings, but they are not the club. We are the club.

The board who, like leeches, cling to their fainting club do not represent our core values. They never did and never will.
Brett Ratten, his class and his demeanor, his passion and his courage are exactly what represent the club which he loves. I, like you, am hurt by this decision. But I think through it all, Ratts would not stop loving this club, and neither should we.

 

[inyourcool]

I am not sure what everyone was expecting but to be where we are after 5 years with Ratts in charge is simply unacceptable! The progress has been too slow and too inconsistent. It has taken him 5 years for us to move from cellar-dweller to mid-table plodders. Not good enough. There is a distinct lack of significant progress, player development and proper nous on building and managing a playing list. Brett is the senior coach and he is largely responsible for these failings while he has been at the helm.

What happens from here is too hard to tell. I am not for or against MM as next coach. Would rather the club complete a proper assessment process with multiple candidates. Either way it is hard to have an opinion on this. But for me, one thing is certain, what has occurred to Ratts today is justified and the only outcome that could occur after the last 5 years

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Don't be so bloody naive.

Money got us Barass, it got us Parkin, it got us Pagan, it got us Bosustow, it got us Hunter, it got us Kernahan, it got us Rhys Jones, it got us Williams, it got us Judd and most of all ........it got us premierships.

This is a professional business, like it or not, turning over 35 million a year, who the hell do you want running an organisation like that? Some Joe Shmuck with no money, no connections and a heap of good intentions?

I really appreciate the diplomacy you use when you have these little outbursts numbers. I'm happy to respond.

Does the fact that we have people prepared to put in money in exchange for having partial control of our decision making, and the fact that the money brings us top talent, make it something we should embrace?

Does every other club gather their talent in the same way? Did Dick Pratt not want us to learn to fish for ourselves? Do we support Carlton the public club or Carlton the semi-owned private corporation?

I am fully aware how we have got things done numbers, but it's a bit judgmental of you to sit there and tell me I should be happy about it. I would love nothing better for Carlton to be a family club that stands on its own two feet and doesn't rely on having to be bailed out by big businessmen, who then impose conditions on those contributions. As I said, that is not inclusive.

I'm guessing other clubs who chase members, develop revenue streams and actually have all of their decision making take place in the board room by those elected to do just that, are all run by Joe Schmucks.

It's all very well to have money and connections numbers. If the use of those resources is dependent on your input though, it's not a transparent process. You either love the club unconditionally or not surely?

It is not an ideal situation, and I would love to see the day where we stand up because of our own toil with membership, merchandising and good branding making most of our money. It's 2012 after all.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

But he does not have to like it Numbers. Plenty of people give millions to churches but don't try to change its preaching - I think ODN is concerned about millionaires who like to buy influence (Buying players - yes please)

Yes, conditional benefactors. 'My money gives me the right to second guessing what you are doing.'

Members money gives them the right to watch games and vote in elections. After that they put their faith in those that are running the club. Wealthy contributors might put in a hell of a lot more money than you average member but then it is proportionate to what they are worth, and should not buy them any more than a good seat at the functions and a heap of recognition.

Even Dick Pratt was guilty of withdrawing his support because his friends were not in power after Elliot was ousted. We do get hampered by outside control IMO, and that being the case, I would rather we survived on our own as soon as we can. It feels a little like selling our soul when it happens and is one of the most negative stereotypes about our club, i.e we don't work for anything we get. I like Judd being at the club, I liked getting Williams, Sticks, Bradley etc. That is not in debate. I just want to achieve these things because we are strong, not because we can hold out our hand and get a favour from the 'godfathers'.

 

[blue healer]

Forgive my ignorance but many here seem to believe that the board is dancing to the tune of the moneyed benefactors of the club and that this is the principal reason for the demise of our coach.

Is there obvious evidence of this?

Serious question as I've seen no evidence.

 

[Moody Blue]

I agree we are a very immature club, but dont agree with much of the rest of it.

We came to accepting the draft and salary cap late in the piece. I think we have knuckled down in this area since acceptance of the system finally dawned on us around 2005. To say we have recruited poorly is hindsighting on a major scale. No-one questioned our recruiting success when we were up and flying. And why would you? It is wideley acknowledged by friend and foe alike, that this years injury list at Carlton was the worst in 30 years. How can you be critical of third tier players who's development is mid track?

Our list is as capable as any when we get to play a settled version of our best players. It is capable of going all the way. We were favorite for a reason, no-one came out in the press (all the so called experts) and said, wait a minute, their list isnt all that flash, they kept shtum and went along with the hype. When the wheels fell off due to injury suddenly we have been a basket case recruiter for the past 5 years. It doesnt stack up. We either were all along or we arent, you cant choose your timing and outcomes to make judgement. So bump your post from earlier in the year circa round 3 or prior where you complain about our recruitment if you would be so kind.

Walls is saying stick with Ratts, so not sure what your point is there. I agree with him.

If we sack the coach because of a minor setback in our development we prove we are still immature, and that this is the area we need to develop in. The 80's is gone, forget about the 80's and prior, that way of doing things died in the 90's and clubs that grasp that will prosper. Those that dont and continually sack coaches mid term will not.

Firstly, Ratten was always an interim coach who replaced Pagan and it was hoped he would placate everyone, which he did. They kept reappointing him and at no point did anyone stop and think whether it was time for an experienced coach to come in and take over to develop these players and top up the holes in our list. Ratts was being out coached by opposition teams and everyone saw this. He even had to be told to get back into the box and do his job for goodness sake. West Coast, Collingwood and Geelong have had their injuries and they are still competing in finals. In west Coasts case they won a wooden spoon three years ago and everyone was predicting three or four years at the bottom. Our backline is poor and Walls summation that a lot of our recruits cannot kick is spot on. Bower has been at the club for six years.Does it take this long to workout he is not upto it? I could have told you that two years ago.Thank goodness McClean found form as he is one that can kick a ball. Our recruiting has been predicated on selecting defacto midfielders. We have not played enough kids but when we were forced to do so we finally saw a glimpse of a couple that will be good ones. In the meantime we let Jacobs and O'halpin go and trade Grigg (defender) for Collins another mid. Despite assurances we were never able to replace O'halpin.His last game for us was a beauty against the West Coast in the finals. He could play back, forward and on the ball which we desperately needed that versatility. Do you really want me to outline the forward structure? I won't bother as it is abysmal. Now we have Warnock who is a tap ruckman but does bugger all around the ground.Kreuzer needs more time but his body is a worry. Waite,Scotland, Carazzo,Judd and Simpson are now approaching the 29-31 mark. Waite struggled to get onto the Park and when he did he could not kick straight to save his life. I will never understand how a professional footballer can miss as often as he does.
I don't see too many replacing these guys in our current list. In fact if Scotland must be sick and tired of being the go to guy every time we get into trouble.He has been a wonderful recruit and served the Blues well as has Carazzo who was a Geelong reject.Andrew Walker signed a new contract and went back to sleep. Eddie and Garlett seem to believe they can play one good game and then have four or five off.
I am sorry but these inadequacies are structural and the coach and his team has to take responsibility.One more thing which has been overlooked. For the past three seasons we have had a soft draw. This season was the first time in many years where we have had a harder schedule. We haven't come close to beating Hawthorn in 8 years and Mooney even stated on SEN that it was well known that if you kept the heat on Carlton they would fold. How correct he was in his assessment.
You said "Our list is as capable as any when we get to play a settled version of our best players. It is capable of going all the way' My friend you are kidding yourself. We lost to the Gold Coast in what was a cut throat game. Gold Coast had 13 of their best players out of the team and in the stands. Malthouse will instill some much needed discipline, and I can assure you he will get rid of a lot of players which many supporters will not be happy about, but it has to be done. Take off the rose coloured glasses and be brutally honest in your assessment.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I am not sure what everyone was expecting but to be where we are after 5 years with Ratts in charge is simply unacceptable! The progress has been too slow and too inconsistent. It has taken him 5 years for us to move from cellar-dweller to mid-table plodders. Not good enough. There is a distinct lack of significant progress, player development and proper nous on building and managing a playing list. Brett is the senior coach and he is largely responsible for these failings while he has been at the helm.

I dislike the simplicity in saying we moved from the cellar to mid table. We are mid table this year because of an anomaly. We are not on the way down, we just had a horror season. If you believe our rightful place at the moment is midtable then Ratten has achieved your expectations. If you believe that our rightful place is in the finals, pushing for top four as we were last year, then you have to consider this year an anomaly and not use it to sell Ratten short.

What happens from here is too hard to tell. I am not for or against MM as next coach. Would rather the club complete a proper assessment process with multiple candidates. Either way it is hard to have an opinion on this. But for me, one thing is certain, what has occurred to Ratts today is justified and the only outcome that could occur after the last 5 years

Well we have announced we want an experienced premiership winning coach. Unless Roos is sneaking around behind closed doors, and we have been leading Malthouse on and he has set himself up for a fall, then we all know there is no process.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Forgive my ignorance but many here seem to believe that the board is dancing to the tune of the moneyed benefactors of the club and that this is the principal reason for the demise of our coach.

Is there obvious evidence of this?

Serious question as I've seen no evidence.

No, just the changing stance of the club in terms of what they were going to do post season, the lack of care factor about where the extra money is coming from, comments from Bruce Mathieson a few weeks back, and the fact that a Pratt laden board is going to have a Mathieson on it next year. Circumstantial but compelling at the same time.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

My eyes bleed looking at that bloody post. USE PARAGRAPHS!!!

 

[Blue Flame]

In west Coasts case they won a wooden spoon three years ago

With half a premiership team, no less. I don't think many were expecting them to stay on the bottom.

My friend you are kidding yourself...
Take off the rose coloured glasses and be brutally honest in your assessment.

Indeed.

 

[Moody Blue]

In case you are wondering who:
Delist: White, Thornton, Joseph, Davies, Collins, Bower

Trade bait: Walker, Waite, Russell, Lucas, Warnock, Gibbs
(Would trade if reasonable trades or picks were available.It would have to be good)

 

[inyourcool]

I believe that with proper development, coaching, list management and establishing a culture with this group of players reinforcing what is required to be a genuine premiership contender, then we should be entrenched in the top 4 by now. Unfortunately, we have let ourselves down with all these facets and have not achieved the required gains to reach that level. It is a FAIL. Unfortunately for Brett, the senior coach is the first to get flak for these shortcomings

 

[Moody Blue]

My eyes bleed looking at that bloody post. USE PARAGRAPHS!!!

Yes I will take it on board.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Firstly, Ratten was always an interim coach who replaced Pagan and it was hoped he would placate everyone, which he did. [snip]

MB, there is so much wrong with that post, I can't even fathom where to start and as I am working it is going to take a long time to address the points I disagree with. For now, I will leave it and say, there is very little fact and it is heavy on personal opinion and revisionism. [leaves and secretly hopes he can ignore OCD tendencies, long enough for somebody else to address it].

Ratten has gone, and the decision will not be changed. No need to pad out an argument against him now.

 

[blue healer]

I dislike the simplicity in saying we moved from the cellar to mid table. We are mid table this year because of an anomaly. We are not on the way down, we just had a horror season. If you believe our rightful place at the moment is midtable then Ratten has achieved your expectations. If you believe that our rightful place is in the finals, pushing for top four as we were last year, then you have to consider this year an anomaly and not use it to sell Ratten short.

Well we have announced we want an inexperienced premiership winning coach. Unless Roos is sneaking around behind closed doors, and we have been leading Malthouse on and he has set himself up for a fall, then we all know there is no process.

Think you may have made a mistake here ODN but does raise a real concern that I have.

If the reason for what we are going through is to enhance our premiership prospects by recruiting an experienced coach I have no problems with that regardless of whether it is delivered or not, at least the reasoning is sound.

But if, after a review, we sign a Burns, Sumich or any other first year coach I will be very disappointed as there can be no justification for releasing the dog you know for the one you don't.

 

[Close to 17]

While acknowledging Brett’s coaching record in developing the team, the Carlton Board was concerned with the inconsistency of the team’s performances and the inability to defeat top eight, and in particular, top four sides.