Autopsy Rd 10 v Saints. Not good enough when it counted.

[BluStreak]

nice to see Casboult have a good week

 

[haveago]

I reckon we are 1-2 years away from being a serious threat. Our young kids will be more mature, bigger bodied, more experienced (remember, most of them are under 22) We will add in some talent as well.
Within this next few years we will get rag dolled and have some **** ups but we will also rattle and clobber some really good teams.
Too many teams play to the short view, keep the punters happy with middle of the road performance, hope for the opportunistic Hail Mary flag.
Thats not what CFC is doing. We are going the road less travelled aiming for a decade of dominance and ideally 2-3 flags. (at least)

Have you heard the one about the young bull and the old bull on the hill surveying the herd

Do tell?

 

[Healer]

Do tell?

Young bull, jumping around, snorting tossing his head says to the old bull.
Lets charge down the hill and "make friends" with a few of them heifers.
Old bull chewing his cud says.
Lets stroll down and "make friends" with all of them.

 

[Blue and Blue]

Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say here but there should be no way in hell that this, or any other, loss takes the pressure off the group.

By their own admission the players have "relaxed" after a couple of "honourable" losses in the past resulting in disaster every time.

I am saying that I feel they will relax in themselves after this loss and play better because of it. They've been copping it for weeks.
They are resilient though and we should not be surprised if we come with wet sail in the second half of the season.
Privately no doubt they will be told the coach is safe and the club knows where its at so don't worry about wins so much and just focus on enjoying footy and give all you've got and the results will take care of themselves.

 

[haveago]

What about the old couple at the Melbourne show looking at the bulls.
Dear old martha says to her husband.
Look merv, that champion bull served 250 cows last year. Thats 5 a week.
You could learn something from him she says.
He mumbles back under his breath.
Yeah but not with the same old cow.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

I think this is just blind faith. Dow to me is going to be a good player, he already is a good player, he has so many admirable qualities but his kicking is horrendous.
Its something that needs fixing, not just hope that he gets fitter and stronger and it will improve. It is a widely held view that players kicking does not improve over time.

Whilst a lot of his game will improve as he gets stronger and fitter, his kicking needs to analysed, broke down and changed or he will remain just a good player.

It will be the only thing that holds him back.

For now, i hope when he takes a set shot, he goes back on the Ben Brown run, and has the shot running.

I'm looking at the first round of the 2017 draft and i can't see one midfielder who's ahead of dow so far on form.

The thing about dow is he is like happy gilmore. he has a very formidable weapon in his skillset that very few others have.

it's quite an asset to find contested ball winning with explosive breakaway speed. he's gotta develop his body, his tank and lots of other areas of his game but so does every other second year player.

he'll probably never be sam mitchell but there's a guy called patrick dangerfield who's made a pretty solid career off exploding from the contest and missing targets.

 

[Gethelred]

Talented players? Seriously?

McGovern is an average footballer. Setterfield is miles off being a talented AFL player, all potential at this stage. Newman was delisted and given a second chance. Plowman and Marchbank came several years ago now and came because they couldn’t get games at GWS due to injury/strong depth.

Kennedy has shown next to nothing at Carlton, same with Lang.

These are seriously what you call talented players? The fact that these are the only sorts of players we have been able to bring in the last three seasons is one of the major reasons we are at the bottom of the ladder still.

Because Caddy, Prestia, Grigg, Houli, Townsend all looked like astute pickups at the time...

 

[blue healer]

I am saying that I feel they will relax in themselves after this loss and play better because of it. They've been copping it for weeks.
They are resilient though and we should not be surprised if we come with wet sail in the second half of the season.
Privately no doubt they will be told the coach is safe and the club knows where its at so don't worry about wins so much and just focus on enjoying footy and give all you've got and the results will take care of themselves.

I don't understand the logic of some on here who think we will improve dramatically in the last half of the season. We are a very young side with very limited numbers of senior players as back up. History says young players start to fall off in the back half of the season, I wouldn't be backing us to buck that trend.

Why would they be told to not worry about wins when everything I've seen come out of the club contradicts that?

 

[Bluebag13]

I don't understand the logic of some on here who think we will improve dramatically in the last half of the season. We are a very young side with very limited numbers of senior players as back up. History says young players start to fall off in the back half of the season, I wouldn't be backing us to buck that trend.

Why would they be told to not worry about wins when everything I've seen come out of the club contradicts that?

Brisbane did last year. I know its not exactly the same but it can be done. I am one of those who think our backend will be much better but after the last couple of weeks its becoming more hope than confidence.

 

[blue healer]

Brisbane did last year. I know its not exactly the same but it can be done. I am one of those who think our backend will be much better but after the last couple of weeks its becoming more hope than confidence.

Believe me I really hope you're right.

 

[Blue and Blue]

I don't understand the logic of some on here who think we will improve dramatically in the last half of the season. We are a very young side with very limited numbers of senior players as back up. History says young players start to fall off in the back half of the season, I wouldn't be backing us to buck that trend.

Why would they be told to not worry about wins when everything I've seen come out of the club contradicts that?

Because there are a lot of dynamics in play one of which is for the club not to claim we are too young and rightly so and then turn around and demand the results of a well seasoned side. If I was coach I would be getting them to enjoy the game and play on instinct. Which Bolts himself has hinted at. I think if they do they can win games. On top of that is the natural progression of more games. Bit by bit learning what works and what doesnt. They can train till they are blue in the face but nothing is like the actual game situation for learning.

Edit, I might be totally wrong. I can only say what seems sensible to me and add a dash of hope. When it comes to the Blues I tend to be an optimist at heart. Every game, every quarter might be the one where it all turns.

 

[PP34]

Because Caddy, Prestia, Grigg, Houli, Townsend all looked like astute pickups at the time...

Caddy played some good footy at the Cats, just didn’t fit in there. Prestia clearly had talent, just one of a number of Suns that couldn’t keep fit.

The others were okay players, nothing special at the time. Grigg and Townsend helped by the players around them. That’s the point. We need to be picking up players better than these types because we sorely lack mature good players like the Tigers had with Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio etc.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

This is what I posted last week in List Management. How anyone can be expecting any more especially when we are trying to develop asap is beyond me.


Some facts about the players I think will be a big part of our future and are all 22 and under

Weitering - 65 games
Charlie - 53
SPS - 51
Silvagni - 48
Marchbank - 42
Fisher - 43
Kennedy - 31
Dow - 27
McKay - 24
LOB - 24
Garlett - 30
Cuningham - 20
Williamson - 17
Polson - 16
Macreadie - 9
Walsh - 9
Setterfield - 8
Stocker - 3
TDK - 2

Doesn't include

Gibbons - 23 years old and 9 games
Goddard - 22 & 10
Kerr - 20 & 4
Pickett 22 & 17

Newman has only 38 games, Lang 55, Phillips 39 and McGovern 56. Not exactly seasoned professionals.

Plus we have Finbar Cottrell LeBois Owies Schumacher BSOS that haven't even played yet

Our only genuine experience is Simpson Kruezer Murphy Thomas Curnow & Jones and most are past their best and aren't physical players anyway.
How many players do we have right in their prime? Cripps, maybe Jones, and Docherty who is injured.

Result, That is a ridiculously young and inexperienced list. No wonder we struggle to win games.

There is 13 games left this year. Even if they all played all the games for the rest of the year most will still be well under 50 games heading into 2020. Even if most play 15-20 games in 2020 we will still have several with less than 50 games. That's if things go well!

Makes it hard to play well consistently with so many so young. This will take time. It can't be rushed. I wish it could. Adding some mature quality players will help and a lot but until this young group ALL get to the 50 plus game mark we will really have a lot of ups and downs and will not be a finals side.

Just a bit of perspective based on facts.

PS Just to add a bit more. Geelong considered it's 1999 & 2001 drafts as the key to its success in later years. It's flags then came in 2007, 2009 & 2011 and they didn't do a full rebuild. They have been able to have sustained success which is our ultimate aim. In 2006 the media wanted Thompson gone as coach. He stayed and look what happened. Patience

Just on Geelong they made a prelim in 2004 with most of their gun mids in their early 20’s. It’s not like it took them 8 years to come good. More like 4-5.
At the start of the year these guys were
Bartel 20
Mackie 19
Kelly 20
Corey 22
Ling 23
Stevie J 20
Ablett 19
Moloney 20
Chappy 22

Those were their main midfielders.

 

[Gethelred]

Caddy played some good footy at the Cats, just didn’t fit in there. Prestia clearly had talent, just one of a number of Suns that couldn’t keep fit.

The others were okay players, nothing special at the time. Grigg and Townsend helped by the players around them. That’s the point. We need to be picking up players better than these types because we sorely lack mature good players like the Tigers had with Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio etc.

... or, it takes longer than 2 seasons for the players obtained in trades to demonstrate their worth, and for a team to come together. You know, seeing as unlike basketball, which has only 5 moving parts, AFL has 18.

 

[Dadda Dave]

gotta be honest. I love stocker, he looks great. He aint worth pick 1 and a pick back though. Not in any universe

We'll have to wait and see ..to early to call .

 

[Gethelred]

Just on Geelong they made a prelim in 2004 with most of their gun mids in their early 20’s. It’s not like it took them 8 years to come good. More like 4-5.
At the start of the year these guys were
Bartel 20
Mackie 19
Kelly 20
Corey 22
Ling 23
Stevie J 20
Ablett 19
Moloney 20
Chappy 22

Those were their main midfielders.

Their run at finals from 2004-05 was borne of the ability of their backline rather than the talent of their midfield. Notice, too, that it took them from 2004 to 2007 before they won their first flag. Also notice, too, that you've chosen the best side of the modern era upon which to base your comparison (IMO) and it's a fraught exercise to compare anyone to that. It's rare you get 3-4 father-sons who were arguably better than their predecessors, and it's even rarer that you get them all at the same time.

 

[Gethelred]

gotta be honest. I love stocker, he looks great. He aint worth pick 1 and a pick back though. Not in any universe

How can you just arbitrarily make that claim without knowing what's coming back our way, at the end of the season?

 

[Healer]

Just on Geelong they made a prelim in 2004 with most of their gun mids in their early 20’s. It’s not like it took them 8 years to come good. More like 4-5.
At the start of the year these guys were
Bartel 20
Mackie 19
Kelly 20
Corey 22
Ling 23
Stevie J 20
Ablett 19
Moloney 20
Chappy 22

Those were their main midfielders.

Fair point on mid games. But who else did Geelong have in that team that were mature on field leaders. We have virtually nil.

 

[Dadda Dave]

How can you just arbitrarily make that claim without knowing what's coming back our way, at the end of the season?

I know right ..muzt have a crystal ball going on ..

 

[Moody Blue]

Well Soapy please enlighten everyone. This group is nearly down and out. You keep believing BB is going to somehow turn it around. If you recall I predicted this in November, because it was obvious then that BB does not have the game plan or the ability to coach this group. Thomas calls an umpire a cheat, and now caught drinking mid week. He is one of the so called leaders and he has chucked it in. I am not a great believer in sacking a coach mid-season, but we need to get rid of BB now as well as Barker and get an experienced head like a Wallace who can take over for the rest of the year, analyze the squad, try a few things with the some of the kids and then make a recommendation at season's end and even stay on as a mentor if we happen to select another first time senior coach.

The other alternative is to wait until the end of the season, kid ourselves that the list is in great shape, watch Adelaide recruit the No 1 draft pick, and then fumble with pick 8-13 hoping we find someone. Then we go through the same charade of talking about improvement and repeat what we have been doing for the past 2 years.

 

[Healer]

How can you just arbitrarily make that claim without knowing what's coming back our way, at the end of the season?

The pick we give Cows is irrelevant. Since it might be pick 1 or it might be pick 4-5. so what. The key is we have a real good prospect in Stocker who gets one extra year in the system with us. The alternative was early pick in the next draft that may or may not be as good a prospect as Stocker, then start from scratch. There is no other Sam Walsh out there for us to nab. We have done just fine with Stocker and the timing was also an edge for us.

 

[PP34]

... or, it takes longer than 2 seasons for the players obtained in trades to demonstrate their worth, and for a team to come together. You know, seeing as unlike basketball, which has only 5 moving parts, AFL has 18.

I have said these players SOS has picked up will help us at some stage.

That was not what I was arguing. I was arguing we need to start winning some games to attract some players in their mid 20s that will add something to our side instantly. We can’t just keep recruiting raw young players and hope to move up the ladder anytime soon.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

Just on Geelong they made a prelim in 2004 with most of their gun mids in their early 20’s. It’s not like it took them 8 years to come good. More like 4-5.
At the start of the year these guys were
Bartel 20
Mackie 19
Kelly 20
Corey 22
Ling 23
Stevie J 20
Ablett 19
Moloney 20
Chappy 22

Those were their main midfielders.

Let's not compare ourselves to possibly the best team in the modern era.

let's compare ourselves to the gold coast suns who had the best player in the league and not much else and in year 3 they won 8 games. a little inflated because they played GWS twice who were a development team themselves but it just shows that there is no set of circumstances that justifies our 4 wins in 40 games stat.

 

[Blue__Balls]

How can you just arbitrarily make that claim without knowing what's coming back our way, at the end of the season?

It's a fair point, Geth.

Pick 1 for Pick 10-12 and 19 isn't a great deal. And not because Stocker isn't good enough, but because when you deal Pick 1 you expect to get a stupidly good return. Doesn't necessarily matter if Stocker goes on to be better than this year's Pick 1, because the argument is that we should have been able to get "more" than two picks in the teens.

Both us and Adelaide rolled the dice on this trade. We believed we'd climb up the ladder, and Adelaide would stall out. They believed they'd climb the ladder and we'd struggle again. On the available information, they made the right call, and we perhaps got a bit ahead of ourselves.

As per DSTM's earlier post, I too really like what Stocker has shown so far. He's shown some neat skills and more aggression than most of our recent draftees. Just a shame we couldn't manufacture an alternative trade to bring him in. We were pretty much out of options at the time though, having already traded away our second round picks.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Fair point on mid games. But who else did Geelong have in that team that were mature on field leaders. We have virtually nil.

Their run at finals from 2004-05 was borne of the ability of their backline rather than the talent of their midfield. Notice, too, that it took them from 2004 to 2007 before they won their first flag. Also notice, too, that you've chosen the best side of the modern era upon which to base your comparison (IMO) and it's a fraught exercise to compare anyone to that. It's rare you get 3-4 father-sons who were arguably better than their predecessors, and it's even rarer that you get them all at the same time.

I used their midfield because that seems to be the most common excuse we use here. We have a more mature one than they did.
They had brilliant backline talls plus handy tall forwards and a ruck. Our tall forwards and ruck I would’ve hoped to be of a similar quality this season to theirs was though it’s not really happening. That’s about it.
I hate comparisons to great sides and that’s why I mentioned it because I was replying to a comparison with them.
I took them in 2004 because they made a preliminary final when they were extremely young compared to our one win in 10 games. No one expects us to even be playing finals but asking for 5-6 wins isn’t too much if we are as talented as we hope.