List Mgmt. Re-Signing Jake Lever

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

If we took Bock and Davis out of the picture would it look quite so bad?

Even without them, Gunston, Tippett, Dangerfield, (Lever?) is a pretty star-studded field and outstrips most clubs

 

[BunjiBro]

Ok - bit of a stupid question / statement - but before rubbishing the club re: culture and low balling 1st to 4th year clubs, in terms of the players who have left, could the AFC honestly have done anything to have kept them on?? Or should we look at the "character" of the players / incentives on offer for departure. I mean, lets go through the list:

Davis - appointed as captain of an AFL expansion club and given effectively double his salary (also opened the door for Talia);
Bock - similar sweet heart deal at GC;
Dangerfield - in reality, we were lucky to keep him as long as we did - ridiculously close to family (any 25-28 year old who willingly wants to live 5m from his parents when he earns around 800k a year is just beyond my own personal understanding). Also had his partner pushing for a return, and she had strong Geelong connections;
Gunston - again, what could the club do here? Father was heavily involved in AFL was he not? Also a kid from the posh part of Melbourne. Those type of people would think of Adelaide as a massive backwater; and
Tippet - again, simply followed the money on offer (because money is clearly his motivator, rather than success).

 

[Elite Crow]

There's no magic bullet. The playing field isn't level for any team.

What rot. Of course there are the extremes like basket cases and expansion clubs, but well run established clubs should not be losing the quality of players we have and no other club has.

 

[pirate bob]

Even without them, Gunston, Tippett, Dangerfield, (Lever?) is a pretty star-studded field and outstrips most clubs

Tippett was a charlatan of the highest order. At some level after the dust has settled after that fiasco I think the club has finished up better off. I still smile when I watch Tippett play and realise how much Sydney compromised to get him.

Dangerfield, gave us a lot of good years. We couldn't compete with his plan.

Gunston, well he sucks. In more ways than one.

 

[pirate bob]

What rot. Of course there are the extremes like basket cases and expansion clubs, but well run established clubs should not be losing the quality of players we have and no other club has.

How often do you think Sydney play and get beaten by GWS and wish Mumford was still their ruckman?

 

[Elite Crow]

How often do you think Sydney play and get beaten by GWS and wish Mumford was still their ruckman?

Ok so now you have Sydney with 2 players, any more from Sydney?

And do you know what forced Mumford out? The recruitment of Tippett with his big fat contract. They weren't in a position to keep Mumford because they misjudged the talent they had.

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Adam Treleor, Josh Bruce, Taylor Adams, Dom Tyson, Tom Boyd, Caleb Marchbank, Lachie Plowman, Will Hoskin-Elliott, Jack Steel, Cam McCarthy

There's a few of the 30 odd players that GWS has lost over the last few years.

A lot of clubs including Adelaide circling players like Josh Kelly, Jacob Hopper and Devon Smith this year.

Please, please, please let us get Devon Smith. The guys a genius with the footy. Stevie J on steroids.

 

[Jars458]

What rot. Of course there are the extremes like basket cases and expansion clubs, but well run established clubs should not be losing the quality of players we have and no other club has.

What's your solution?

 

[pirate bob]

Ok so now you have Sydney with 2 players, any more from Sydney?

And do you know what forced Mumford out? The recruitment of Tippett with his big fat contract. They weren't in a position to keep Mumford because they misjudged the talent they had.

Probably annoying for them when they play Richmond now as well. Nankervis looks ok in the ruck too. Lewis Jetta seemed to be on an upward trajectory when he left for the WCE.

 

[pirate bob]

Ok so now you have Sydney with 2 players, any more from Sydney?

And do you know what forced Mumford out? The recruitment of Tippett with his big fat contract. They weren't in a position to keep Mumford because they misjudged the talent they had.

Didn't Mumford start at Geelong? I bet Geelong would still love to have Mumford on their list too

 

[jo172]

Even without them, Gunston, Tippett, Dangerfield, (Lever?) is a pretty star-studded field and outstrips most clubs

It's interesting in retrospect the lack of individual accolades the departing players (but for Danger) have received. No AAs, B&Fs, comp wide awards.

Is our perception of the departing players abilities/performances a bit warped?

 

[Scorpus]

Why can't we sell the dream?

Hawks and Cats were able to get people to sign for unders and keep their teams largely together, with most players turning down the big offers from elsewhere.

Almost a pact between players, driven by who? The club? Senior players?

For whatever reason we've retained an every-man-for-himself element with it being common even for 'loyal' players like Lynch and Jenkins to test the waters deep into the season.

Because we stopped cheating the salary cap after the Tippett saga, whereas both Hawthorn and Geelong managed to concoct some very nice extra benefits for their players.

Stay for unders to keep the ground together = you'll get success and we'll "look after you" in other ways/later on.

We don't offer the same benefits because we don't want to get stung again

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It's interesting in retrospect the lack of individual accolades the departing players (but for Danger) have received. No AAs, B&Fs, comp wide awards.

Is our perception of the departing players abilities/performances a bit warped?

Gunston killed it in consecutive three flags

He and Tippett play in positions that don't tend to attract votes in awards

 

[Jarman3]

It's interesting in retrospect the lack of individual accolades the departing players (but for Danger) have received. No AAs, B&Fs, comp wide awards.

Is our perception of the departing players abilities/performances a bit warped?

Gunston is a 3x premiership player. I reckon he and the Hawks would take that over any number of individual accolades. Although he was their leading goalkicker twice (including the 2015 premiership year) so that's kind of an individual accolade, I suppose.

 

[Red mist]

What rot. Of course there are the extremes like basket cases and expansion clubs, but well run established clubs should not be losing the quality of players we have and no other club has.

Especially when you hear from the playing group how galvanised they've been in the last 18 months. There's a disconnect somewhere that has to be isolated and dealt with. It's on the admin side IMO.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Unfortunately it is a flawed system that leaves the club (whose player wants to leave) with very little power. When FA was brought in, there definitely should have been mid season trades to go with it. This would have given the club who has spent years developing a player the ability to say 'hey you don't want to sign, that's fine but we are gonna trade you to the end of the earth and get the best deal possible' Eg Brisbane etc. and not where you want to go.
What this would then do is increase player retention. The AFLPA will never vote this in now which I feel is a major F@%k up and the team with the player wanting to leave never ever gets close to true value. Eg: Crows/Dangerfield
Not to mention the simple commercial aspect. Imagine on the week of the showdown X player gets traded to Port and they suit up against their old team that weekend.

Mid season trades would do **** all to reduce player's power. Player still has the ability to refuse the trade leaving the club powerless.

I don't have a huge problem with free agency in its current form. I would if the number of years reduce. If you think about it, these AFL players are such prima donnas. They want their cake and eat it too. FFS there are professional soccer and basketball players who go to the other side of the world to earn a living and in a lot of cases, they go from team to team (or country to country) on a yearly basis....sometimes even in a shorter period of time.

The problem with the AFL players is that they want all the power. They want to be able to test free agency but also have the ability to veto a trade and will threaten with PSD in some cases.

While the NBA model has its flaws it shits all over what AFL has in place.Firstly there is no such a thing or equivalent of the PSD. There is one draft that kids or young adults apply for. If you get picked in the first round you get a 4 year contracts with the last 2 years being team options. From memory, you are allowed to negotiate an extension at the end of your 3rd season. If you don't, the club has a choice to extend you a qualifying offer which is based on a set increase on your salary from the 4th year. Once the qualified offer is extended, a player is a restricted free agent. This means that the player is free to look for better deals out there. They can sign an offer sheet with another club, then it is up to you whether you match that offer (meaning all terms of the contract) or you decline. If you match, the player is yours and cannot be traded to the team that he signed an offer sheet with for 12 months. If you decline to match the offer, the player goes to the other team. if you don't extend the qualifying offer, the player becomes an unrestricted FA and can sign with whomever you want. The maximum salary allowable to the player is based on their number of years in the league. The annual increases are slightly better for the "home" team that the player has played last season.

Players can have a "no trade" clause in their contracts but those are very rare and reserved for the absolute superstars of the competition or if you are shit club like the Knicks you can give one to the lesser level player which never works out well for the team.

There are other things like salary cap holds (i.e. when your player becomes a FA there is a cap hold for that player which doesn't allow you to sign other FAs unless you renounce the cap holds). It also means teams can only sign free agents if they have enough salary cap room to do so and are allowed to go over the cap to sign their own FAs.

The "home" teams have some advantages when it comes to keeping their players in that the yearly salary increases are higher than if the player signed with another team, they can offer an extra year. Players still come and go but the "home" team is not disadvantaged as much. Once the player becomes an unrestricted FA (i.e. after their 2nd contract completes) they can sign with whomever they want. 1 and two year deals are not too common. Teams can have non guaranteed portion of the contracts (e.g. if a player is on the roster after a certain date then the full years salary is guaranteed and if you cut them, they are a FA and they come off your books)

The system is not perfect but it is far better than what AFL have in place at the moment which is basically a Player dictatorship.

 

[Mike Smyth]

Idk why but I get the same vibe from Gallucci...

Stick with the meat and potatos type kids - ie crouch brothers.

 

[Crowmurder]

Mid season trades would do **** all to reduce player's power. Player still has the ability to refuse the trade leaving the club powerless.

I don't have a huge problem with free agency in its current form. I would if the number of years reduce. If you think about it, these AFL players are such prima donnas. They want their cake and eat it too. FFS there are professional soccer and basketball players who go to the other side of the world to earn a living and in a lot of cases, they go from team to team (or country to country) on a yearly basis....sometimes even in a shorter period of time.

The problem with the AFL players is that they want all the power. They want to be able to test free agency but also have the ability to veto a trade and will threaten with PSD in some cases.

While the NBA model has its flaws it shits all over what AFL has in place.Firstly there is no such a thing or equivalent of the PSD. There is one draft that kids or young adults apply for. If you get picked in the first round you get a 4 year contracts with the last 2 years being team options. From memory, you are allowed to negotiate an extension at the end of your 3rd season. If you don't, the club has a choice to extend you a qualifying offer which is based on a set increase on your salary from the 4th year. Once the qualified offer is extended, a player is a restricted free agent. This means that the player is free to look for better deals out there. They can sign an offer sheet with another club, then it is up to you whether you match that offer (meaning all terms of the contract) or you decline. If you match, the player is yours and cannot be traded to the team that he signed an offer sheet with for 12 months. If you decline to match the offer, the player goes to the other team. if you don't extend the qualifying offer, the player becomes an unrestricted FA and can sign with whomever you want. The maximum salary allowable to the player is based on their number of years in the league. The annual increases are slightly better for the "home" team that the player has played last season.

Players can have a "no trade" clause in their contracts but those are very rare and reserved for the absolute superstars of the competition or if you are shit club like the Knicks you can give one to the lesser level player which never works out well for the team.

There are other things like salary cap holds (i.e. when your player becomes a FA there is a cap hold for that player which doesn't allow you to sign other FAs unless you renounce the cap holds). It also means teams can only sign free agents if they have enough salary cap room to do so and are allowed to go over the cap to sign their own FAs.

The "home" teams have some advantages when it comes to keeping their players in that the yearly salary increases are higher than if the player signed with another team, they can offer an extra year. Players still come and go but the "home" team is not disadvantaged as much. Once the player becomes an unrestricted FA (i.e. after their 2nd contract completes) they can sign with whomever they want. 1 and two year deals are not too common. Teams can have non guaranteed portion of the contracts (e.g. if a player is on the roster after a certain date then the full years salary is guaranteed and if you cut them, they are a FA and they come off your books)

The system is not perfect but it is far better than what AFL have in place at the moment which is basically a Player dictatorship.

As you clearly do, I follow the NBA also and agree with most of that TBH. They have a far, far better system. The AFL one is so bad it S@%ts me to tears.

 

[jo172]

Gunston killed it in consecutive three flags

He and Tippett play in positions that don't tend to attract votes in awards

I agree, but there is a degree of right place right time about it.

They were all good players when they left and have continued to be good players after they've left, but none really developed as they may have if they stayed here from an individual sense (comparing Davis to Talia, Gunston to Lynch, Tippett to Jenkins etc.)

Again, Dangerfield the exception.

 

[MarcusP2]

Gunston is a 3x premiership player. I reckon he and the Hawks would take that over any number of individual accolades. Although he was their leading goalkicker twice (including the 2015 premiership year) so that's kind of an individual accolade, I suppose.

He was runner up in the 2013 Norm Smith as well IIRC.

 

[Elite Crow]

What's your solution?

Well there's been a bit of talk how we don't pay our players enough so we could start there.

 

[Heafy83]

Well there's been a bit of talk how we don't pay our players enough so we could start there.

I think its more we don't pay our top players as much as other clubs and feed it through to the middle rung players more. A more even spread.

Everyone has to pay the same amount of cap.

We win a flag or two in the next few years then we can't really say it isn't a good method.

 

[mickfaxis]

I stuck with Danger for months ....after Walsh's death thought there was no way he'd go

I now save my loyalty for players that commit straight off the bat if that's ok with you of course

So if Lever signs then? He's not loyal because he didn't do it the second he got a contract under his nose? The guy has a contract or 3 in front of him that will set himself and his offspring up for life. Forgive him for not putting pen to paper immediately to a Crows contract that pales in comparison from what he might get elsewhere.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I think its more we don't pay our top players as much as other clubs and feed it through to the middle rung players more. A more even spread.

Everyone has to pay the same amount of cap.

We win a flag or two in the next few years then we can't really say it isn't a good method.

There must be a fair bit of coin floating around in our reserves and outside the current 22:
- Menzel
- Gore
- Seedsman
- Otten
- Thompson
- Hampton
- Cheney

Moving on someone like Henderson, even though he is a handy AFL player, is a good thing because it's too much cap space for a player who is not an essential part of our best 15 or 16.

Perhaps we have to alter our list profile a bit. Give away some of our depth in spots 23-35 on the list and fill the gap with a few more draftees. It's a luxury to be able to bring in Otten or Seedsman if we cop an injury but if that luxury is costing us players like Lever or McGovern is it worth it?

 

[relapse]

I don't know, I reckon he might just do it so they can move on to more important things.

What they might give up pick 1 for Cameron?

Hahahahahahahaha, this is reaching Port level delusion.

Cameron is quick and a good tackler, but a very poor set shot on goal and doesn't get heaps of the ball.

At best he's an early second round pick (19-25), Brisbane's 2nd round pick sits perfectly in that window