Recruiters...At what point?

[Duckworth]

All the rants are based on belting a subject the club moved on from in 2007. We need to look at 2007 onwards in isolation as that is when the board took a deliberate decision to re vamp the recruiting department.

Fair to say that recruiting has gotten better in that time frame. Will take a few years to see the fruits of the labor though.

Have we employed anyone to improve our negotiations in the trade department. ie Chief of Poaching?

 

[TheDon35]

5 pages and still no one actually knows our recruiting set up ....

Dodoro - list manager, makes decisions on the list along with the coach and football manager, reads out the names on draft day takes the recommendations from our head of recruiting to the coach and football manager before sitting down with the recruiting staff to make the drafting plan. Also gets around and talks to all the parents and junior coaches which is his best skill and that is people.
Also works with the the assorted player support personal.

Has not been the head of recruiting since 2006.

Merve Keane - head of recruiting since the 2007 draft and makes the calls that end up with the rating list for the draft. He and his crew do the on field performance rating, they make the decisions on talent.

Also not mentioned is the fact we have just put on 2 more full time recruiters and 2 more part time recruiters.

So before we go off and have the same argument again maybe we can use the actual facts !

As far as Dodoro goes he has been an average recruiter but was also handicapped by our set up and the coach, Sheedy. The only year Dodoro spent the full year in the field with no Essendon match day duties was 2006. Every other year he had several roles within the club as we had a half arsed set up which was a joke. The best recruiter in the world would have struggled in the set up we had as 100% of their focus was not U/18 footy.

We can bitch about 1999 to 2005 for as long as we want . I had similar threads on here 4 years ago bemoaning our shit set up and the fact it had cost us 6 years in development and it would take another 5 years to start getting players in the 50 to 100 game bracket to move us forward.

All the rants are based on belting a subject the club moved on from in 2007. We need to look at 2007 onwards in isolation as that is when the board took a deliberate decision to re vamp the recruiting department.

And if people want to argue that as list manager he is still pulling the strings then you are wrong. I see Merv around the TAC all the time, i do not see Dodoro around the TAC all that often. He does not see all the junior footy and does not make the decisions on talent !

A few points here.

Firstly I doubt our 'joke' of a recruitment setup was any more a joke than 90% of the other clubs.

Secondly Dodoro remains a key figure within the recruitment department. As list manager recruitment related activities must take up 80% of his working life otherwise what's the point in him being there?

Yes, we've had some better results in the first 2 rounds since '07 however we've still failed to nail anything beyond the 2nd round in the national draft bar Hooker. This period has also coincided with a period where we've had 4 x top 10 picks.

Are you happy with the state of the list after 10 years of being ordinary? Personally I hope rather than think our players under 22 will come through. Huge question marks on blokes like Melksham & Colyer. The '09 draft could be something we look back on in three years as a disaster... And I would be glad to be wrong as it's our only chance of being good within 3 years.

 

[Slattery_20]

Witch hunt! Burn him!

 

[Kong]

5 pages and still no one actually knows our recruiting set up

[snip]

Tbf, this post has been made by you and others so many times over the past couple of seasons that I think we've just given up. If people don't get what Dodoro's current job is now they never will.

My thoughts exactly.

I'd estimate having this pointed out for people at least 20 times in the last six months.

If people still don't get it, why bother trying once again?

I just skimmed over what was yet another misinformed thread.

 

[TheDon35]

My thoughts exactly.

I'd estimate having this pointed out for people at least 20 times in the last six months.

If people still don't get it, why bother trying once again?

I just skimmed over what was yet another misinformed thread.

I know the recruiting setup. That's not the issue.

I find it hard to accept the arguement that because Dedoro's title is 'list manager' instead of recruiting manager he:

a) shouldn't be held accountable for recruiting decisions made under this title
and
b) doesn't spend the vast majority of his time within the 'list manager' roll on recruiting related activities and is therefore 'responsible' for recruiting activities along with Merve Keane.

The thread talks to our recruiting over a 10 - 12 year period where Dedoro has been at the forefront of our recruiting activities.

 

[Slattery_20]

And Hamilton's football manager, therefore all their' bosses.
Sack him!!!

 

[ant555]

A few points here.

Firstly I doubt our 'joke' of a recruitment setup was any more a joke than 90% of the other clubs.

Well you are wrong, i started working in the area in 2003, other people in and around recruiting where amazed to see Dodoro in the box on Saturday afternoons and not watching TAC.

Secondly Dodoro remains a key figure within the recruitment department. As list manager recruitment related activities must take up 80% of his working life otherwise what's the point in him being there?

No it does not take up 80% of his time. He is list manager which is pretty much assistant football manager. His time is taken up with all list based issues and coordinating recruitment staff. Why would we have a head of recruiting working full time plus 4 other full time staff if it was taking up 80% of Dodoros time ?
They moved him into an area that suited his skill set and that is people management. He is good at talking to various people, getting back ground information and organizing the various groups.

Yes, we've had some better results in the first 2 rounds since '07 however we've still failed to nail anything beyond the 2nd round in the national draft bar Hooker. This period has also coincided with a period where we've had 4 x top 10 picks.

Just a bit premature. There have been injury factors to start with and on top of that most of them have not had enough time in the system to start bitching that they are duds and we have not done well.
Would have thought Pears was a good get in round 2 of 2007.
Not sure what is wrong with Zaka, has really gone well the last 2 weeks when played as a midfielder.

Are you happy with the state of the list after 10 years of being ordinary? Personally I hope rather than think our players under 22 will come through. Huge question marks on blokes like Melksham & Colyer. The '09 draft could be something we look back on in three years as a disaster... And I would be glad to be wrong as it's our only chance of being good within 3 years.

No i am not happy with it but i am not about to sit around and throw mud without any fact. I had my two cents worth in 2005 and 2006 when we had made no changes.
Since 2007 i have been happy to sit back and wait until players have had 3 years in the system before making judgments on if they where good or bad. I will not get sucked into making premature evaluations just because my side has gone to shit over the last 10 years.

What has been wrong with Melksham ? he is an outside mid who has been playing above his current weight division. He is far from a finished project yet he has been able to gain some great experience. His form has left him now but he has shown enough to suggest that with another 4 or 5kg of muscle he can be a really good player.

The other day you said this in reply to me raising concerns about Colyer

A bit harsh on a 20 year old midget in his second year. Showed plenty last year in a side which was all one way, obviously needs to refine parts of his game but for god sake give him a chance.

So what is it ? is he no good with serious concerns or is he going ok and we need to give him time ?

 

[Slattery_20]

Arguments will be made 'based' on one person's vague idea of 'facts'.
Facts will be dodged.
Argument will be stuck to, after all any suggestion something has ever gone right can be immediately disproven by pointing out one bad result.
Nothing surer.

 

[TheDon35]

Well you are wrong, i started working in the area in 2003, other people in and around recruiting where amazed to see Dodoro in the box on Saturday afternoons and not watching TAC.



No it does not take up 80% of his time. He is list manager which is pretty much assistant football manager. His time is taken up with all list based issues and coordinating recruitment staff. Why would we have a head of recruiting working full time plus 4 other full time staff if it was taking up 80% of Dodoros time ?



Just a bit premature. There have been injury factors to start with and on top of that most of them have not had enough time in the system to start bitching that they are duds and we have not done well.
Would have thought Pears was a good get in round 2 of 2007.
Not sure what is wrong with Zaka, has really gone well the last 2 weeks when played as a midfielder.



No i am not happy with it but i am not about to sit around and throw mud without any fact. I had my two cents worth in 2005 and 2006 when we had made no changes.
Since 2007 i have been happy to sit back and wait until players have had 3 years in the system before making judgments on if they where good or bad. I will not get sucked into making premature evaluations just because my side has gone to shit over the last 10 years.

What has been wrong with Melksham ? he is an outside mid who has been playing above his current weight division. He is far from a finished project yet he has been able to gain some great experience. His form has left him now but he has shown enough to suggest that with another 4 or 5kg of muscle he can be a really good player.

The other day you said this in reply to me raising concerns about Colyer



So what is it ? is he no good with serious concerns or is he going ok and we need to give him time ?

Yep, so you've confirmed that his majority of time is focussed on recruitment related activities. Tick

I've been a massive admirer of both Zaharakis and Pears and consider them very good gets. I've been on record saying that I think Zaha will be an A grade footballer. And I never said anything about us getting every single selection wrong. Just that at this point, 1 x A grader over 12 odd years is unacceptable. You've taken a long bow.

As for Melksham, again, I never said we got every pick wrong. You and I both have concerns over Melksham. I have concerns over his ability to get to the required level because of his lack of balance and subsequent kick inacuracy and lack of penetration, lack of one touch ball skills, size and speed. I hope he gets over this and I'd rather have him on the list than not because he can play.

Any team can go through their recruiting over a 10 year period and pick out 3 C - B graders with upside as you have... It doesn't reflect on the overall recruiting.

My comments on Collyer are what they are, There's obvious concerns over his deficiencies (as you have expressed) but we have to perservere with him and should be reasonably happy with his output over the first year and a half. I actually really like the kid. Can't hide from the fact that he faces massive physical challenges to make the level as a B - A grader.

 

[Slattery_20]

LOL. 'No it does not' = 'yep, confirmed, it does'

Take anything, out of any context, which might pump up your argument; and ignore any facts which doesn't fit the theory, and answer to a legit question that you don't like? Ignore them, too. Re-draw any goal-posts at will.

Complete, utter, terrible, busted arse of a post.
The point at which a call was made on Dodoro was when they moved him across and got someone to do recruiting.

Moot
point

 

[ant555]

Yep, so you've confirmed that his majority of time is focussed on recruitment related activities. Tick

WTF are you on about ?
List manager, works with the recruiter yes but also works with player managers fidning out who is out of contract at other clubs and what price they may cost, works with the player welfare people making sure things are ok in that department. Works with the football manager with some in house issues. Does not go out into the field and watch games every week, does not spend his week watching footage of games from all over the place.

I will give you a simple concept.
Years ago i was night shift supervisor (Merv) at a cheese factory. I ran the shift, recruited the employees and made day to day decisions.
I reported to the production supervisor (Dodoro) who oversaw our work but was not directly involved. He did more of the adim side of things and coodrinated the three shift supervisors. He reported to the Factory manager (Hamilton).
Not going to go over this again. If you do not understand the facts or want to believe them then you can continue to go on wondering what is going on.

I've been a massive admirer of both Zaharakis and Pears and consider them very good gets. I've been on record saying that I think Zaha will be an A grade footballer. And I never said anything about us getting every single selection wrong. Just that at this point, 1 x A grader over 12 odd years is unacceptable. You've taken a long bow.

And my point is you have to draw a line after 2006 because there was a change in the set up and a change in how they did things !
You have to say 1 A grade players for 7 years was totally bull shit and something should have been done about it earlier.
The you have to look at what we have done since 2007 and say 1 probable A grade player in Hurley, 2 likely A grade players in Heppell and Zaka. A few that looklike solid B grade players.

As for Melksham, again, I never said we got every pick wrong. You and I both have concerns over Melksham. I have concerns over his ability to get to the required level because of his lack of balance and subsequent kick inacuracy and lack of penetration, lack of one touch ball skills, size and speed. I hope he gets over this and I'd rather have him on the list than not because he can play.

I do not have any major concerns. I do not think he should be in the side at the moment as he has been beaten up by lack of size and is getting selective about going to contests but when he can build up his body and core strength i think he has the tools to be an A grade outside midfielder.
I have no problems with his speed and when his confidence has been up he has nailed some great foot passes that left you thinking this kid has something. He just needs time.

Any team can go through their recruiting over a 10 year period and pick out 3 C - B graders with upside as you have... It doesn't reflect on the overall recruiting.

And once again you have to look at the recruiting in 2 periods as there was a direct decision made after 2006 to change the set up because they knew we had fallen behind what other clubs where doing. They hired a full time head of recruiting to make the player decisions, they had a few more part time staff woking with him.
You can not get over your Dodoro hang up and i will say once again it would have been a struggle for any recruiter to come up with gold given he had 3 roles he was filling and Sheedy was sticking his finger into the pieas well.
He really should be judged on 2006 alone which was the only year he was full time head of recruiting and not board holder, player welfare manager, interchange bench coordinator etc etc.
As i said in my rants several years ago people should have been voting out the board members who let it happen ! I know i did vote for new blood several years in a row!

My comments on Collyer are what they are, There's obvious concerns over his deficiencies (as you have expressed) but we have to perservere with him and should be reasonably happy with his output over the first year and a half. I actually really like the kid. Can't hide from the fact that he faces massive physical challenges to make the level as a B - A grader.

I do not think he will be an A grade player but i am not sitting on the fence. His X factor is pace and run. If he can not find it then he will be no good because as a crumbing forward he is a sit goal kicker.

 

[redandblackveins]

All I know is that since our last Premiership we have NOT recruited any "All Ausrtralian" players.
Something wrong there

 

[TheDon35]

WTF are you on about ?
List manager, works with the recruiter yes but also works with player managers fidning out who is out of contract at other clubs and what price they may cost, works with the player welfare people making sure things are ok in that department. Works with the football manager with some in house issues. Does not go out into the field and watch games every week, does not spend his week watching footage of games from all over the place.

I will give you a simple concept.
Years ago i was night shift supervisor (Merv) at a cheese factory. I ran the shift, recruited the employees and made day to day decisions.
I reported to the production supervisor (Dodoro) who oversaw our work but was not directly involved. He did more of the adim side of things and coodrinated the three shift supervisors. He reported to the Factory manager (Hamilton).
Not going to go over this again. If you do not understand the facts or want to believe them then you can continue to go on wondering what is going on.




And my point is you have to draw a line after 2006 because there was a change in the set up and a change in how they did things !
You have to say 1 A grade players for 7 years was totally bull shit and something should have been done about it earlier.
The you have to look at what we have done since 2007 and say 1 probable A grade player in Hurley, 2 likely A grade players in Heppell and Zaka. A few that looklike solid B grade players.



I do not have any major concerns. I do not think he should be in the side at the moment as he has been beaten up by lack of size and is getting selective about going to contests but when he can build up his body and core strength i think he has the tools to be an A grade outside midfielder.
I have no problems with his speed and when his confidence has been up he has nailed some great foot passes that left you thinking this kid has something. He just needs time.



And once again you have to look at the recruiting in 2 periods as there was a direct decision made after 2006 to change the set up because they knew we had fallen behind what other clubs where doing. They hired a full time head of recruiting to make the player decisions, they had a few more part time staff woking with him.
You can not get over your Dodoro hang up and i will say once again it would have been a struggle for any recruiter to come up with gold given he had 3 roles he was filling and Sheedy was sticking his finger into the pieas well.
He really should be judged on 2006 alone which was the only year he was full time head of recruiting and not board holder, player welfare manager, interchange bench coordinator etc etc.
As i said in my rants several years ago people should have been voting out the board members who let it happen ! I know i did vote for new blood several years in a row!



I do not think he will be an A grade player but i am not sitting on the fence. His X factor is pace and run. If he can not find it then he will be no good because as a crumbing forward he is a sit goal kicker.

Ah surprise... another chest beating rant...

12 years, poor drafting. Undeniable. If you want to believe that he doesn't have much to do with recruiting as list manager of the club then go for it. Many of your points have actually validated what i've said anyway and just arguing for the sake of beating your chest... Way to miss the point.

No surprises there.

 

[TheDon35]

LOL. 'No it does not' = 'yep, confirmed, it does'

Take anything, out of any context, which might pump up your argument; and ignore any facts which doesn't fit the theory, and answer to a legit question that you don't like? Ignore them, too. Re-draw any goal-posts at will.

Complete, utter, terrible, busted arse of a post.
The point at which a call was made on Dodoro was when they moved him across and got someone to do recruiting.

Moot
point

The name you've given yourself pretty much sums up your opinion on football... No cred gurgle gurgle... I'm great... you're not... blah blah.

Simple post and opinion that you and your Knob mate like to take and get personal with because your fat heads can't deal with differing opinions.

You don't like the thread... Piss off and read another one. The vast majority of your idiotic posting goes through to the keeper because it is mindless. BTW... Fairly large consensus that the thread was appropriate...

 

[TheDon35]

Arguments will be made 'based' on one person's vague idea of 'facts'.
Facts will be dodged.
Argument will be stuck to, after all any suggestion something has ever gone right can be immediately disproven by pointing out one bad result.
Nothing surer.

Where have facts been dodged smart arse.

You've obviously written the textbook on bullshitting based on your scripted drivel rant above.

 

[SirJimi05]

Arguments will be made 'based' on one person's vague idea of 'facts'.
Facts will be dodged.
Argument will be stuck to, after all any suggestion something has ever gone right can be immediately disproven by pointing out one bad result.
Nothing surer.

LOL. 'No it does not' = 'yep, confirmed, it does'

Take anything, out of any context, which might pump up your argument; and ignore any facts which doesn't fit the theory, and answer to a legit question that you don't like? Ignore them, too. Re-draw any goal-posts at will.

Complete, utter, terrible, busted arse of a post.
The point at which a call was made on Dodoro was when they moved him across and got someone to do recruiting.

Moot
point

It's no surprise to me that he ignored both of these posts.

Summed up to perfection.

 

[TheDon35]

It's no surprise to me that he ignored both of these posts.

Summed up to perfection.

Go back and check the thread champ... Another winning contribution.

 

[reincarnated]

Is Forster-Knight any good as a recruiter? Why was he given a job out of the blue, when he would have zero prior involvement. (I apologise if he did work for another club in this field).

That decision was like giving assistant coaching role to Campo...I was like WTF. Everyone were like great. Look what happened?

Sooo what was the selection criteria based on?

Another question is why is Skipworth working in the development of our youth academy...couldn't they find a better person for the job, in the whole of Australia?

Wallis apperently did a good job with Freo...is that really Chris Scott's work or Wallis's work? That's something we'll find out soon. The way Freo started bringing out young kids stepping in to AFL and hitting the road running is amazing. If we don't see that here soon, even that Geelong bloke will be questioned soon.

 

[SirJimi05]

Go back and check the thread champ... Another winning contribution.

I've read the whole thread from start to finish, thanks.

All you seem to be doing is taking Ant out of context and twisting his words to suit your argument.

Thanks, CHAMP

 

[stander]

Where have facts been dodged smart arse.

You've obviously written the textbook on bullshitting based on your scripted drivel rant above.

I always thought you reserved that language just for me.

I reckon Dodo landed a nice cushy promotion on the back of Gumby and Jetta in the 06 draft although Hislop was a poor choice of course.

Four drafts later and the ghosts and duds of 98-05 become irrelevant to his current position. But, like anyone else, the recruiting buck stops with him irrespective of much he points the finger at his recruiting crew for any stuff ups.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Haven't read the whole thread but here's my two cents.

While we've made some mistakes in recruiting we've also done quite well. I don't think you can blame the recruiting staff and I reckon they'd get a tick over the past 5 years.

What has killed us is the development of these players. Injuries, game plan, culture and lack of facilities have all contributed. For such a rich club we have sub standard everything. It is apparently changing but we are 5 years behind the game.

Gumby and Myers have been lame since they came to the club. Jetta struggled early with injuries. Pears, Hooker and Hurley have had problems. Dempsey is another.

I look at Collingwood and most of their guys have had a lot of continuity.

sports science. We were once leaders but we'd be wooden spooners now.

 

[SirJimi05]

Pretty much agree with what Kelvin said.

 

[Kong]

Yeah likewise.

I reckon if I could choose one off field staffman to poach from another club, it'd be Collingwood's sports scientist.

 

[stander]

Haven't read the whole thread but here's my two cents.

While we've made some mistakes in recruiting we've also done quite well. I don't think you can blame the recruiting staff and I reckon they'd get a tick over the past 5 years.

What has killed us is the development of these players. Injuries, game plan, culture and lack of facilities have all contributed. For such a rich club we have sub standard everything. It is apparently changing but we are 5 years behind the game.

Gumby and Myers have been lame since they came to the club. Jetta struggled early with injuries. Pears, Hooker and Hurley have had problems. Dempsey is another.

I look at Collingwood and most of their guys have had a lot of continuity.

sports science. We were once leaders but we'd be wooden spooners now.

I'll add nepotism to your list of throwaway lines for failure.

I'll also say I don't see a football team with enough hunger for the ball. This is where Hird and the crew can earn their fat cheques. Has to be reignited, soon.

 

[Colin D'Cops]

While we've made some mistakes in recruiting we've also done quite well...
...What has killed us is the development of these players. Injuries, game plan, culture and lack of facilities have all contributed.

Said the same on pg.1, so as such agree 100%.