Preview Rnd 10 - Carlton v Geelong Saturday 26th May 7.25pm @ GMHBA Stadium - Team Post #494

[F_therest]

Very hard to simulate match conditions at training. While a player may do all the necessary training to prove their fitness & not pull up sore or experience any symptoms, this can change very quickly under match conditions.

Bottom line is 4 players getting immediately re-injured in their first game back is way too many. It points to a problem in the way we are managing it.

I can't ever remember that happening before within 8 weeks.

 

[RedFury]

Very hard to simulate match conditions at training. While a player may do all the necessary training to prove their fitness & not pull up sore or experience any symptoms, this can change very quickly under match conditions.

Yeah I get that, but with the frequency it has happened this year it would need to be incredibly bad luck. Possible of course, but getting into the unlikely range for mine.

I understand that you can't make fitness tests too rigorous or you up the risk of injury from the test itself to an unacceptable level. I'm just suggesting that perhaps our total process for determining when a player is ready to return needs to be looked at.

 

[blue healer]

Yeah I get that, but with the frequency it has happened this year it would need to be incredibly bad luck. Possible of course, but getting into the unlikely range for mine.

I understand that you can't make fitness tests too rigorous or you up the risk of injury from the test itself to an unacceptable level. I'm just suggesting that perhaps our total process for determining when a player is ready to return needs to be looked at.

I think our strategy is quite transparent. When in doubt pick them rather than when in doubt give them another week(s).

 

[Soapy V]

Soapy - if you actual read what I am saying I am agreeing with you - just saying that we don't have to have a play the kids policy - just pick the most talented 22 and you will end up with at least half the side being kids.

Also i don't think you will get a bigger Cuningham fan than I am - Graham isn't the only one I would have him in ahead of.

Fair enough. My belief is it's now time to play the Cuninghams Silvagni's Macreadies Schumachers etc ahead of the Grahams Mulletts. O'Sheas etc. Not only for the experience but to actually see if they can step up. Our core experience is still good.

Get another 8-10 games into Cuningham Weitering Marchbank McKay Polson Dow O'Brien etc and the benefits will be huge

All being well if we can get 5-6 games into Schumacher Kerr LeBois before another pre season I see nothing but positives

I think now with Bolton being re signed he has clear air to focus on this this year

 

[bigdog43]

Every injury this year has involved recurrence. Marchbank 1-2 week out. Gone for 5. Murphy 3 weeks out. Gone for 3 more now probably. Byrne 1-2 week. Then gone for 8. Kennedy 1-2 weeks out. Plays vfl. Gone for 2-3 more. ASOS gone for 4. Comes back ready. Gone for 4 more. It’s ******* ridiculous.

We need north, melb or rich to shed some light on their preparation and injury prevention. I hear Oliver trains all day and has 9 pm ice baths. I heard north ice baths are of huge importance to their prep.

This idea of playing through pain might have started due to soft next generation kids giving up too soon but it’s gone too far and we now have constant recurrences of injuries. And weird ones at that. Syndedmosis (x 3), Osteitis pubis (likely Kruezer), plantar fascia. It’s probably a coincidence but maybe it’s the new visy surface or maybe it’s the preseason varied surfaces we were exposed to not having access to visy.

I believe North had to sack the head of fitness because he gave all the players the same weights etc. Majak and Kayne Turner were doing the same weights! Anyway, their new head of fitness is elite and doing a terrific job. Ours however...

 

[El Topo]

Get shellacked aiming to play the way we want to play, or park the bus to limit the damage? It's a good debate with strong arguments for both approaches. What's the answer? ****ed if I know.

 

[Juddernaut08]

The problem that Bolton has ( if any) is explaining 109 point losses. It isn't explaining a 3-5 goal loss against more fancied opponents - it is accounting for an absolute shellacking. When a team gives up the fight as Carlton did in second half last week - the hard questions are asked about discipline/commitment and direction.

Now everyone can point to injury list as an excuse for not winning - but the Club has spent time and money recruiting the so called 'deckchairs' so that they can fit into the side and play their roles as required from time to time. The fact that O'Shea/Graham/Kerridge/Mullett/Thomas have actually played a string of games should point to at least continuity for them - but what has been delivered in terms of basic AFL ( albeit lower quality) football has been too much ordinary and not enough competency.

This is a coaching and game plan issue - it isn't a player issue. The players have known capabilities - there is no upside they are what they are.

What Bolton failed to do in the game against Melbourne was to accept the fact that it was likely that Carlton loses the game and build a game plan around maximising the effectiveness of who he had at his disposal to do what and minimise the strengths of the opposition and weaknesses in team line up. In order to minimise the chances of a blowout. if not implemented in second quarter - surely by half way through second quarter it should have been. There was no plan B on display - ie make 'em earn their win by forcing them to play to a Carlton defensive game.

One example - Jones has fantastic closing speed - why is he playing in front of his man and too separated most of the time? Also if it true that he is trying to be the extra man by running off his opponent - why doesn't Bolton create a permanent extra man in defense in order to solve for this and not force Jones off his opponents?

Another example - why continue with a mickey mouse zone defence structure when too many players are struggling to be in the right place at the right time. Melbourne seemed to have numbers back centre and forward in waves all the time...the obvious response is to match Melbourne up man on man. if you let players run in waves - ala norfs/Collingwood and Melbourne - you will get cut to pieces - especially if you are coping a shellacking in clearances - especially in centre bounces.

Third example - Carlton has been lambasted by media commentators in the past for not scoring more than 100 since 2016 - WHO CARES!!! The defensive back six on display for the last few weeks is made up of poor kicks/no run. Don't pretend that O'Shea/Rowe/Thomas/Mullett and Jones are going to give you great rebound capability. Embrace their limitations - slow the game down reduce turnovers hold the F'ing ball for longer - frustrate your opponents...give the side some chance to breathe FFS.

It seems that Bolton has this comic idea that Carlton goes in to win every game and wont be using injuries as an excuse or lack of developed bodies or anything else- well here is breaking news Bolts- you don't have a team that should be winning right now- you have a team available that needs to not get smashed out of the park. Game plan should reflect this first priority - at lest until you have players back that can actually match it with AFL players.

Finally - STOP with murdering players and this 'learn to endure' BS. Murphy/Kreuzer should not have been played - Phillips should have played and in fact Phillips/Kreuzer - would have bene better than an unfit early back Murphy and a sort of fit Kreuzer combo. Why debut Kerr when Ed and Charlie are out ? How is Kerr a substitute for Charlie? Totally different players. Like Polson last year in the game against Port - Kerr was set up for a fail - better to have had Phillips or Kreuzer resting up forward and rotating in ruck rather than getting McKay to pretend to ruck in his early development time at Carlton.

Bolton is going through a learning exercise himself- but I think the type of advice he is getting from his assistant coaches and so called game strategist - is ordinary to crap. The last thing you do when you have a weak hand is to pretend you can play as if you have four aces. game style and speed has to be matched to lower risk capability of who you have to play. Play boring grinding accountable football - not football guaranteed to provide opponents with easy turnovers.

Yep - part of coaching is what you're trying to achieve. If you don't know the goals clearly, then you can't really judge the strategy.

What is Bolton's goal this year? What was it against Melbourne?

If he sensed a blowout, he has 2 choices for a goal/objective:

1) Minimise the margin
2) Focus on development of our gameplan

If he's trying to minimise margin, we are damn good at holding the ball and going into shutdown mode. This "turtling" technique would've stemmed it to 40-60pts if it had been implemented. Dropping 2 extra back. Not taking risks. Slowing the game down. It's kind of what we did against Essendon in the last 6 minutes - this time it would be different as Melbourne wouldn't have the urgency to take risks etc and force the issue.

If he's trying to continue to focus on development and playing the way he wants (whether that is right or not is another question), then he changes nothing, or asks us to take on more risks etc.

If his goal was pure development, regardless of result - then perhaps it wasn't as bad as we thought. Could be nice to trial a few things when the result isn't going to change?

 

[Ruckus]

Get shellacked aiming to play the way we want to play, or park the bus to limit the damage? It's a good debate with strong arguments for both approaches. What's the answer? ****** if I know.

For as long as we're carrying a relatively unskillful 22, I'd be inclined to err on the side of parking the bus, but I'm also not sure we're in a position yet where we have the ability to maintain any particular game plan across four quarters. Must be a tricky side to coach at the moment.

The elements one doesn't need talent or experience to implement are work rate and pressure (as per the Essendon game), but that physically takes a toll, and we have some who aren't ready to yet to necessarily maintain that for a whole match, and probably some others carrying sore bodies anyway.

If parking the bus necessitates retaining possession and chipping it around patiently, then I don't think we're any good at (or suited to) that, either - too many of our link-up options in such plays are turnover merchants and poor decision makers.

I also feel Bolton would like us to play a fast spreading style moving forward, but we just don't have enough hard two-way runners to make that work yet, either (well, not last week - will definitely be better this week with the expected ins).

So yeah, good question...but I really dunno!

 

[HBF]

Pathetic management - again.

Should never have bought him back when we did. Very disappointing by the club.

 

[Jabba73]

Kids aren’t going to learn the game plan for winning if we keep trying to stem the losses by parking the bus. All it does is stifle their development and teach bad habits.

No point waiting until we have near best 22 available either, that ain’t happening this year, we will just delay the next step of improvement by 12 months.

Need to stick with the preferred style, regardless of availability of players or the opposition. Don’t want a team that needs to fully adjust playing style each week to limit the opposition, I want the opposition having to worry about stopping us. Only then do we need to learn plan B.

Might as well do the learning while expectations of a number in the wins column is purely media driven. Last chance at a free pass to completely remould the team how we want it to be, plenty of time to mound it how we need it to be, once the list stabilises.

 

[JustaBattler]

Yep - part of coaching is what you're trying to achieve. If you don't know the goals clearly, then you can't really judge the strategy.

What is Bolton's goal this year? What was it against Melbourne?

If he sensed a blowout, he has 2 choices for a goal/objective:

1) Minimise the margin
2) Focus on development of our gameplan

If he's trying to minimise margin, we are damn good at holding the ball and going into shutdown mode. This "turtling" technique would've stemmed it to 40-60pts if it had been implemented. Dropping 2 extra back. Not taking risks. Slowing the game down. It's kind of what we did against Essendon in the last 6 minutes - this time it would be different as Melbourne wouldn't have the urgency to take risks etc and force the issue.

If he's trying to continue to focus on development and playing the way he wants (whether that is right or not is another question), then he changes nothing, or asks us to take on more risks etc.

If his goal was pure development, regardless of result - then perhaps it wasn't as bad as we thought. Could be nice to trial a few things when the result isn't going to change?

Exactly - what was the goal against Melbourne? A win? Well if that was the goal it was gone by half way through second quarter. What should the new goal be? What is Plan B?

IF Bolton's goal is to insist on a certain game style irrespective of results - what does he do if the players he has at his disposal cant execute?

What does he do if the opposition modifies their game plan to counter Carlton - as has been done repeatedly this year?

Easy for me a or anyone to be critical - I just think 109 point losses don't do anything positive for the players/coach/club or supporters.

There is NOW WAY a side should lose by that much - it is an out of control situation which is unacceptable.

Outcoached - for sure, and the Melbum coach ain't no rocket scientist - which will become obvious as the Melbums play some genuine contenders over the coming weeks - Bolton allowed McDonald to dictate forward play and defensive structure, Bolton also allowed some nobody with a moustache to kick what was it 5-6 goals? Pathetic coaching on the day really.

 

[JustaBattler]

Kids aren’t going to learn the game plan for winning if we keep trying to stem the losses by parking the bus. All it does is stifle their development and teach bad habits.

No point waiting until we have near best 22 available either, that ain’t happening this year, we will just delay the next step of improvement by 12 months.

Need to stick with the preferred style, regardless of availability of players or the opposition. Don’t want a team that needs to fully adjust playing style each week to limit the opposition, I want the opposition having to worry about stopping us. Only then do we need to learn plan B.

Might as well do the learning while expectations of a number in the wins column is purely media driven. Last chance at a free pass to completely remould the team how we want it to be, plenty of time to mound it how we need it to be, once the list stabilises.

There should never ever be 'one' game plan or style though should there? Mixing up defensive and attacking aspects of game style - in game every game is core to a team being able to manage the ebb and flow of what the opposition is doing. Bolton has said as much himself on many occasions. Developing one game style irrespective of ability to execute -whole of field - really?

Sorry Mate not a buyer.

 

[Aphrodite]

What an odd Preview thread.

 

[Juddernaut08]

There should never ever be 'one' game plan or style though should there? Mixing up defensive and attacking aspects of game style - in game every game is core to a team being able to manage the ebb and flow of what the opposition is doing. Bolton has said as much himself on many occasions. Developing one game style irrespective of ability to execute -whole of field - really?

Sorry Mate not a buyer.

I think as a general rule, if you're weaker and you don't have elite small defenders, you should be playing with an extra back. Hope we don't structure up the same way against Geelong if things go south.

 

[RudyBlue]

Where are the ****ing teams?

Expecting 3-6 changes. Excited to see them.

 

[Jabba73]

There should never ever be 'one' game plan or style though should there? Mixing up defensive and attacking aspects of game style - in game every game is core to a team being able to manage the ebb and flow of what the opposition is doing. Bolton has said as much himself on many occasions. Developing one game style irrespective of ability to execute -whole of field - really?

Sorry Mate not a buyer.

We have proven we can play the defensive style, not sold on our ability to attack. Adjusting the tempo of the attack from slow and steady to all out attack should be the focus of our learning this season.

We can switch between them once we know how to execute regardless of circumstances. Letting players withdraw back into safe playing styles because we started poorly and there is scoreboard pressure does not help you develop an attacking mindset.

Accept the turnovers and score blowouts for the sake of learning how to attack when we need to, not only when the opposition allows us to.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Any word on selections? I really hate having to wait til 6:25pm to get teams.

 

[AceAndy]

Any word on selections? I really hate having to wait til 6:25pm to get teams.

Surely there will be bulk changes from last weekends team.

 

[Neese]

Stiff shit, we all have to wait. You're not special

 

[Stig O'Hara]

Always reckon if you get a group of kids playing together as a group early, a game plan will naturally evolve.

Geelong, Hawthorn....those guys knew each other’s game inside out.

 

[Jimmae]

Stiff shit, we all have to wait. You're not special

 

[Soapy V]

Any word on selections? I really hate having to wait til 6:25pm to get teams.

Murphy unlikely

 

[Neese]

View attachment 501631

It was a positive reality check, typed with love

 

[Chookie]

For as long as we're carrying a relatively unskillful 22, I'd be inclined to err on the side of parking the bus, but I'm also not sure we're in a position yet where we have the ability to maintain any particular game plan across four quarters. Must be a tricky side to coach at the moment.

The elements one doesn't need talent or experience to implement are work rate and pressure (as per the Essendon game), but that physically takes a toll, and we have some who aren't ready to yet to necessarily maintain that for a whole match, and probably some others carrying sore bodies anyway.

If parking the bus necessitates retaining possession and chipping it around patiently, then I don't think we're any good at (or suited to) that, either - too many of our link-up options in such plays are turnover merchants and poor decision makers.

I also feel Bolton would like us to play a fast spreading style moving forward, but we just don't have enough hard two-way runners to make that work yet, either (well, not last week - will definitely be better this week with the expected ins).

So yeah, good question...but I really dunno!

You’ve summed up our problems pretty well. When I watch our matches the two things that stand out are 1) we turn the ball over too easily through either poor skill execution or choosing the wrong option, and 2) we don’t yet have the ability to keep our effort and concentration up for four quarters, invariably we have lapses.

And as long as your skills let you down and you can’t apply consistent effort/insensity no game plan will hold up.

For the time being think we are better suited to going down the park the bus route and really try to slow Geelong down.

 

[Jimmae]

It was a positive reality check, typed with love

You can hear the affection with every key stroke...

[faint sound of a keyboard being destroyed in the distance]