Rolling All Australian Team 2020

[LukeParkerno1]

Gawn being out injured might hurt, goldfish memories remember? The last 2 weeks matter a lot to people.
I'd still have them probably as my AA rucks, but I'd only go with one. Neither Gawn, Grundy, NicNat or Goldstein are good enough in a second role like KPF for me to justify including 2 ruckman in my AA team. I know that some people do, but I don't put two number 1 rucks that play the same position in my season's best 22. For me it's only one of them by year's end.

Agree, plus with Dixon/Hawkins, etc in your forward line you sort of have a relief ruck in the forward line anyway. Don't feel there has been 2 great rucks anyway. Pick 1 ruck, and then pick an extra defender on the bench.

 

[bjwilliams]

Apart from Nic Nat being better this season? His influence has been massive for WCE. He's easily in the side. Goldstein won't be there, I'd be surprised if he's in the squad, playing for a bottom 2 side will hurt. Gawn hasn't been as good as last year.

Please tell me you didn't use Supercoach scores as the reason why a player shouldn't be picked lol

I obviously and clearly said Supercaoch was meaningingless so not sure why you'd then go and question if that was my reason for a player not being picked. Its still an interesting piece around his low scores.

And you've haven't actually provided anything that helps me understand it here. What exactly is Nic Nat doing ... can you actually tell me instead of just saying "his influence". His getting centre clearances at a really high clip, and puts a lot of pressure on the opposition. He also disposes of it very poorly (honestly I'd be surprised if his kicking efficiency isn't one of the lowest in the league) and gets 10 touches a game. How much influence is he actually creating with this?

 

[NoPositiveTests!]

NicNat coming 6th overall in the coaches votes before this weekend (where he was again influential). Starting ruck for me.

 

[Sirlemsip]

Arguably Hawks' best player

Who would argue with that?

Since Mitchell went down with his leg injury of preseason 2019 he's been the best and it isn't close.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I obviously and clearly said Supercaoch was meaningingless so not sure why you'd then go and question if that was my reason for a player not being picked. Its still an interesting piece around his low scores.

And you've haven't actually provided anything that helps me understand it here. What exactly is Nic Nat doing ... can you actually tell me instead of just saying "his influence". His getting centre clearances at a really high clip, and puts a lot of pressure on the opposition. He also disposes of it very poorly (honestly I'd be surprised if his kicking efficiency isn't one of the lowest in the league) and gets 10 touches a game. How much influence is he actually creating with this?

Hardly. All fantasy scores are USELESS. They don't come into it. Watch the games with your eyes that's all that should matter.

His tap outs are elite, they put WCE's mids on the front foot, and thus it's no shock when Nic Nat has exploded in the last 6-7 weeks especially, Tim Kelly has, etc. He gets silver service to the mids. The other mids haven't been anywhere near as good.

 

[Virgin Dog]

He's only missed 3.

A defender missing 3 games would automatically remove them from the conversation this year. Spots are way too tight. I'd go as far as saying a single missed game could cost a spot in the 22 this year. The top end is too close between about 10-12 players

 

[bjwilliams]

Gawn being out injured might hurt, goldfish memories remember? The last 2 weeks matter a lot to people.
I'd still have them probably as my AA rucks, but I'd only go with one. Neither Gawn, Grundy, NicNat or Goldstein are good enough in a second role like KPF for me to justify including 2 ruckman in my AA team. I know that some people do, but I don't put two number 1 rucks that play the same position in my season's best 22. For me it's only one of them by year's end.

And that's the thing - I agree missing games is going to hurt Gawn. But an interesting piece I found. Nic Nat plays in 67% of the match. So I just did a quick comparison of time played this year for both (Nic Nat 11 games, Gawn 9 (and obviously has the make up game too)).

Nic Nat - 11 games - 66.9% on the ground = ((16x4) x 11) x .669 = 470 minutes of playing time.
Gawn - 9 games - 91.5% on the ground = ((16x4) x 9) x .915 = 527 minutes of playing time.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Who would argue with that?

Since Mitchell went down with his leg injury of preseason 2019 he's been the best and it isn't close.

Gunston would be close.

Sicily should be your captain though.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

A defender missing 3 games would automatically remove them from the conversation this year. Spots are way too tight. I'd go as far as saying a single missed game could cost a spot in the 22 this year. The top end is too close between about 10-12 players

It's why I wouldn't be against O'Connor getting a spot. That said I'd rather Stewart get a spot than Daniels. Think you do have to reward top sides when decisions are tight. Similarly I don't expect my side to get any except Papley.

 

[Virgin Dog]

It's why I wouldn't be against O'Connor getting a spot. That said I'd rather Stewart get a spot than Daniels. Think you do have to reward top sides when decisions are tight. Similarly I don't expect my side to get any except Papley.

Does rating Stewart's year over Caleb Daniel, despite 3 less games, come from any logic, or your bias against the Dogs? I can understand people arguing for guys like Sheppard, Ryan, Saad, etc. over Daniel, but no way should Stewart be in the conversation at all

 

[bjwilliams]

Hardly. All fantasy scores are USELESS. They don't come into it. Watch the games with your eyes that's all that should matter.

His tap outs are elite, they put WCE's mids on the front foot, and thus it's no shock when Nic Nat has exploded in the last 6-7 weeks especially, Tim Kelly has, etc. He gets silver service to the mids. The other mids haven't been anywhere near as good.

He literally has less hitouts to advantage than Gawn... And Gawn does the exact same thing in providing it to Melbourne's mids. Both teams pretty much have the same number of clearances off their respective rucks tap work.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

He's only missed 3.

That’s a quarter of the season so far... throw in the game he got injured in its 4 out of 12 games. The equivalent of missing 7-8 games in a 22 game season.

If he plays the remainder of the games at a high level he’ll have “played” 14 out of 18. That’s the equivalent of missing 5 or 6 games in a full length season. That’s pretty tough going to make the team when plenty of guys have played well

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Does rating Stewart's year over Caleb Daniel, despite 3 less games, come from any logic, or your bias against the Dogs? I can understand people arguing for guys like Sheppard, Ryan, Saad, etc. over Daniel, but no way should Stewart be in the conversation at all

Hardly have anything against the dogs in fact 3 weeks ago had both Daniel and Macrae in, still have Macrae in on the bench

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Can someone provide the basis for Nic Nat as AA ruck over Goldy and Gawn? Grundy is out of the conversation but I really don't understand this.

Nic Nat is obviously great at centre clearances, but he's butchering the ball when he has it, which isn't often enough anyway. Has 4(!) marks for the year and really I don't see him having a significant impact on the forward or defensive side of the game. I know that Fantasy Points are rather meaningless but he's averaging 67 per game - if I'm not picking him for my damn Supercoach why would anyone for the AA team?

Am I taking crazy pills?

Yes.

You don’t need him in your AA team but he’s certainly in the conversation and no one can argue too much if he’s in someone’s team.

 

[Bestbird]

He literally has less hitouts to advantage than Gawn... And Gawn does the exact same thing in providing it to Melbourne's mids. Both teams pretty much have the same number of clearances off their respective rucks tap work.

A quote from Geelong's coach from a few weeks ago pretty much sums it up

Chris Scott mesmerised by Nic Naitanui

West Coast ruckman Nic Naitanui put on a star display as the Eagles came from 22 points down to beat Geelong by nine points…

www.theroar.com.au

“No one can compete with Nic Nat when he’s completely up and going and he’s got everything on his terms,” Scott said.

“The problem with kicking goals against West Coast is the ball goes back to the middle.

“It’s hard not to be mesmerised with some of the stuff he can do. I’m a fan, I’m sure you guys are as well.”

 

[PhatBoy]

Just my two cents for the week about the ruck thing.
I don't really care who they pick. I have no vested interest in any of the 3 guys whos names are being tossed up.
What I will say, and I think I said something earlier in the thread about it, is that I believe you sometimes need to remember that doing something freakish that gives your side a goal, for example, isn't any more valuable than doing something perfectly normal that achieves the same thing. NN is capable of doing things that no other ruckmen can. A highlight reel of trickshots, basically, when you pluck the eyes out of his best work. The example I used last time was that reverse tap to a roving Josh Kennedy that probably no other ruckman could have executed. It earned his side a goal, didn't contribute to it - it created it. And that's fantastic. But is it more valuable than Gawn just managing to get the better of a 50-50 contest and feeding it to a teammate who then hits another teammate with a short pass or something, and then kicks a goal?

feels like the raw aesthetic brilliance of NN’s play earns him more than the relative ‘boringness’ of others

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Just my two cents for the week about the ruck thing.
I don't really care who they pick. I have no vested interest in any of the 3 guys whos names are being tossed up.
What I will say, and I think I said something earlier in the thread about it, is that I believe you sometimes need to remember that doing something freakish that gives your side a goal, for example, isn't any more valuable than doing something perfectly normal that achieves the same thing. NN is capable of doing things that no other ruckmen can. A highlight reel of trickshots, basically, when you pluck the eyes out of his best work. The example I used last time was that reverse tap to a roving Josh Kennedy that probably no other ruckman could have executed. It earned his side a goal, didn't contribute to it - it created it. And that's fantastic. But is it more valuable than Gawn just managing to get the better of a 50-50 contest and feeding it to a teammate who then hits another teammate with a short pass or something, and then kicks a goal?

feels like the raw aesthetic brilliance of NN’s play earns him more than the relative ‘boringness’ of others

NN does far more than highlight reels - that misnomer should have been put to bed. So much of his work on hands and knees turning the tide in the midfield when the ball hits the ground - he has huge influence.

And yeah - a 50:50 win that leads to a chain of handballs - is great - but it does't set up the goal.

Equally a cheap over the top kick to Jenkins in the goal square isn't the same as a towering Tom Hawkins mark and goal. Both lead to goals - but one is far harder to execute.

It's the same - a hitout to advantage that allows a midfielder to blind snap over their shoulder - isn't the same as one which allows a midfielder (or key forward) complete access to run onto the ball and kick it without pressure.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Nic Nat in the ruck with relief from Dixon, having another ruck would make the side unbalanced.

 

[PhatBoy]

NN does far more than highlight reels - that misnomer should have been put to bed. So much of his work on hands and knees turning the tide in the midfield when the ball hits the ground - he has huge influence.

And yeah - a 50:50 win that leads to a chain of handballs - is great - but it does't set up the goal.

Equally a cheap over the top kick to Jenkins in the goal square isn't the same as a towering Tom Hawkins mark and goal. Both lead to goals - but one is far harder to execute.

It's the same - a hitout to advantage that allows a midfielder to blind snap over their shoulder - isn't the same as one which allows a midfielder (or key forward) complete access to run onto the ball and kick it without pressure.

For the record I'm not trying to belittle NN here or anything. The guy does stuff that just makes me shake my head and wonder how he did it. I just think we tend to reward the spectacular sometimes because of how it looks. Same thing applied with someone like Cyril. Ok strictly speaking he wasn't there to kick goals, he had a different role as a forward - but I always felt because what he did looked so easy and perfect and good, it overshadowed players like Gunston and Breust who's overall scoreboard impact was equal to Cyril's but because they didn't have that same aesthetic appeal, or that same 'touches:impact' ratio, they got overlooked a bit

 

[Greenswan]

Reckon Sam Collins has been hugely underrated this season. He's in the team for mine if it was selected today. Massive job for him tonight so could either drop out or further press his case.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

For the record I'm not trying to belittle NN here or anything. The guy does stuff that just makes me shake my head and wonder how he did it. I just think we tend to reward the spectacular sometimes because of how it looks. Same thing applied with someone like Cyril. Ok strictly speaking he wasn't there to kick goals, he had a different role as a forward - but I always felt because what he did looked so easy and perfect and good, it overshadowed players like Gunston and Breust who's overall scoreboard impact was equal to Cyril's but because they didn't have that same aesthetic appeal, or that same 'touches:impact' ratio, they got overlooked a bit

Balance right?

If everyone in Hawthorn played like Luke Breust - they wouldn't have been half as successful.

Same reason you don't pick 6 key forwards

You need players with a complement of skills - which is why I always shake my head at those picking holes in what players can't do - rather than what they can.

Darren Glass couldn't kick - genuinely bad - didn't stop him being a highly effective defender though.

 

[bjwilliams]

A quote from Geelong's coach from a few weeks ago pretty much sums it up

Chris Scott mesmerised by Nic Naitanui

West Coast ruckman Nic Naitanui put on a star display as the Eagles came from 22 points down to beat Geelong by nine points…

www.theroar.com.au

“No one can compete with Nic Nat when he’s completely up and going and he’s got everything on his terms,” Scott said.

“The problem with kicking goals against West Coast is the ball goes back to the middle.

“It’s hard not to be mesmerised with some of the stuff he can do. I’m a fan, I’m sure you guys are as well.”

Nic Nat is mesmerising with the way he goes about it - but I'm not asking really if he's a highlight reel. I'm asking is he really as effective as the others. I will say I obviously will have bias with Gawn and I believe his the best ruck in the comp. But I don't think questioning how a player who plays 66% of the match, gets 10 touches, get's 1 mark every three games, and disposes of the ball at a below-average effectiveness rate can be as considered as elite as the others.

 

[bjwilliams]

Yes.

You don’t need him in your AA team but he’s certainly in the conversation and no one can argue too much if he’s in someone’s team.

Oh I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the conversation. He 100% should. I guess I don't understand the seemingly huge favoritism that he should be the one selected out of the 4 in question.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Interesting that NOT one Geelong defender can make it in to your group of 12 defenders and yet Geelong's defence is currently No. 1 and getting better by the week.

I don't think Geelong fans should be defensive about this. Hawkins has clearly been the best key forward in the competition to this point mainly because of his consistency and has to be picked. IGuthrie has a strong argument to be in the 22 but he's far from a lock and I don't think anyone else makes it. Our defence has been great but Taylor and Stewart have missed games, Blicavs and Tuohy have been swung onto a wing a lot and O'Connor probably doesn't quite make it. I don't think any of our defenders should be picked.

Put it this way if you're picking the top 100 players this year then all of Taylor, Hawkins, Tuohy, Dangerfield, Blicavs, Duncan, Menegola, Guthrie, Stewart and O'Connor would be in the frame. That's why we're doing well but it's been a consistent effort and doesn't mean we deserve many AA spots. There's 18 teams with 22 spots so one lock and a few others in the conversation is reasonable.

 

[Duskfire]

I don't think Geelong fans should be defensive about this. Hawkins has clearly been the best key forward in the competition to this point mainly because of his consistency and has to be picked. IGuthrie has a strong argument to be in the 22 but he's far from a lock and I don't think anyone else makes it. Our defence has been great but Taylor and Stewart have missed games, Blicavs and Tuohy have been swung onto a wing a lot and O'Connor probably doesn't quite make it. I don't think any of our defenders should be picked.

Put it this way if you're picking the top 100 players this year then all of Taylor, Hawkins, Tuohy, Dangerfield, Blicavs, Duncan, Menegola, Guthrie, Stewart and O'Connor would be in the frame. That's why we're doing well but it's been a consistent effort and doesn't mean we deserve many AA spots. There's 18 teams with 22 spots so one lock and a few others in the conversation is reasonable.

I agree with you mostly. It is a strange team where everyone is contributing evenly and there aren't huge standouts, and really thats probably the best way to be. I do think that it is almost criminal how much O'conner gets overlooked though. Has barely put a foot wrong. As somene who watches alot of football, in my head I just assumed he was going to be there. Kind of like Tom Stewart last year. It was just a lock. Then again, I have been wrong many many times before!