Rolling All Australian Team 2020

[eth-dog]

Rebound 50's: (Total)
Luke Ryan: 11 x Games, 75 x Rebounds
Sam Docherty: 11 x Games, 67 x Rebounds
Robbie Tarrant: 11 x Games, 67 x Rebounds

That half back line does a lot of Rebounding out of the D-Fifty.

Hmm, it's almost as if those three take most of the kickouts for their side

 

[Yojimbo]

Hmm, it's almost as if those three take most of the kickouts for their side

15 x Other Teams in the competition are you suggesting they don't "Kick Out" the stat quoted was Total Rebound 50's.

 

[eth-dog]

15 x Other Teams in the competition are you suggesting they don't "Kick Out" the stat quoted was Total Rebound 50's.

Surely you realize the correlation between taking the majority of kick outs and getting high rebound 50 numbers? How many kick outs a game do you see not leave the 50? If Robbie Tarrant takes 8 kickouts a game and 7 leave the 50 that's 7 rebound 50's right there.

 

[Sprout]

There is certainly a high level of defensiveness when it comes to us and Naitanui but the criticism of him not taking enough marks is unwarranted in my view. His job is to win the contested ball, generate good quality clearances and give those on the ground silver platter service from his hitouts - if he bumped up his marks average by taking a couple of cheapies as he switches the ball across half back then our team is stuffed anyway.

It's akin to criticising a half back for not kicking enough goals. More valid critiques would be his lack of endurance (which sees his TOG % often in the 60s) and lack of positional awareness at times.

I think that’s where the bemusement comes. Some Eagles supporters actually try to twist this into a positive - ala how amazing he is despite the lesser TOG. Like we are meant to extrapolate what he does across an entire game. It’s not a strength. It’s a weakness. As you rightly allude to. It’s just basic common sense that staying on the ground for longer provides more opportunity to influence the outcome. Which, with a TOG regularly in the 90s, Gawn does every week to a high level. I disagree with an earlier poster who says Gawn has had an “ok year”. He’s been a lot better than just okay. He was at his best leading up to the injury which will probably cost him. Without that injury he should’ve been in the side.

I don’t see many disputing NN’s inclusion in the side given his tapwork and contested work this year has actually been that good. IMO it’s pretty simple. We have four quite different elite rucks, each with different strengths. NN has brought his particular strengths to the fore better than the others overall, and thus he deserves selection. Why it needs to go beyond that I don’t know.

It’s actually quite handy that NicNat is such a likeable guy. Many Eagles supporters make it difficult to like him otherwise.

 

[Yojimbo]

Surely you realize the correlation between taking the majority of kick outs and getting high rebound 50 numbers? How many kick outs a game do you see not leave the 50? If Robbie Tarrant takes 8 kickouts a game and 7 leave the 50 that's 7 rebound 50's right there.

If said Rebound 50 thief was deemed to have left the square is it still deemed a "Kick Out" or has he in fact "Played On" thus taking
the whole "Kick Out" argument out of the equation. Don't get me started on those give and go handball receives followed by a big
roost to the wing or beyond, stat padding 101 right there.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Rebound 50 numbers are a bit irrelevant. The guys who recycle the ball through half back in high quantities are far less important than the guys who have elite kicks off half back. Lewis Jetta (Or Shannon Hurn or Daniel Rich etc) is a good example, would rather (when he was in his prime) have 7 or 8 kicks from him in the back half than 15-20 of Docherty.

intercept numbers are much more interesting.

 

[Yojimbo]

intercept numbers are much more interesting.

Intercepts: (Total)
Sam Collins: 12 x Games, 88 x Intercepts
Luke Ryan: 11 x Games, 87 x Intercepts
Nick Vlastuin: 11 x Games, 83 x Intercepts

Bit of both there with Luke Ryan absolutely smashing it in an undersized back line.

 

[eth-dog]

If said Rebound 50 thief was deemed to have left the square is it still deemed a "Kick Out" or has he in fact "Played On" thus taking
the whole "Kick Out" argument out of the equation. Don't get me started on those give and go handball receives followed by a big
roost to the wing or beyond, stat padding 101 right there.

Well yes. It still counts. Why wouldn't it?

 

[Yojimbo]

Well yes. It still counts. Why wouldn't it?

We have seen Clearances broken up into Centre Clearances and Stoppage Clearances so maybe we could have Kick Outs being from
the goal square only and if you choose to play on it's no longer a Kick Out. I think they only used to be recorded if the person doing
the Kick Out actually left the goal square, but they had to do that funky mini kick to themselves to play on. I am not sure if they are
counted now, i hope so as it is a very important possession.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Intercepts: (Total)
Sam Collins: 12 x Games, 88 x Intercepts
Luke Ryan: 11 x Games, 87 x Intercepts
Nick Vlastuin: 11 x Games, 83 x Intercepts

Bit of both there with Luke Ryan absolutely smashing it in an undersized back line.

Thanks for the Luke Ryan plug

We currently have conceded the least number of points of ANY team (yes, with a game in hand we'll fall behind 1 or 2), that is with 4 of our first choice back 6 out. Unlike other teams, that is not as much a team effort as it Luke Ryan has been an impassable wall both statistically and to the eye.

My purple glasses think Ryan should be the closest thing to a lock out of a very strong field of defenders, though he'll need to continue his current form over the last few rounds

 

[Yojimbo]

Thanks for the Luke Ryan plug

Here is a plug for you, Luke Ryan was my first pick in my phantom that year yes the Tim English pick i rated him big time and was
horrified he slid to where he did. Luke Ryan and i think Tom Stewart were the big dogs in that draft, bargain time for someone.

 

[juss]

Yeah i can see that

I often wonder if hes been told not to go hard because of the knees - he used to take a screamer most matches early days.

Hes a ruckman, hed jump into people with his knees at every centre bounce....

 

[juss]

There is certainly a high level of defensiveness when it comes to us and Naitanui but the criticism of him not taking enough marks is unwarranted in my view. His job is to win the contested ball, generate good quality clearances and give those on the ground silver platter service from his hitouts - if he bumped up his marks average by taking a couple of cheapies as he switches the ball across half back then our team is stuffed anyway.

It's akin to criticising a half back for not kicking enough goals. More valid critiques would be his lack of endurance (which sees his TOG % often in the 60s) and lack of positional awareness at times.

No one wants him to take cheap uncontested marks on the wing, but you don't see value in the ruckman getting back in the hole to take big intercept marks either from opposition kickouts? Or being a big marking target for the getout kick after a point is scored or down the line? Or drifting forward on occasion and taking the big goal square mark and goal from a set shot that falls short?

He does a lot of things well and better than other rucks as his relative strengths, but there are other ruckman in the league that do that sort of stuff I've listed and he doesnt, thats the area of relative weakness to them in comparison. And yes it would be great if he could play more TOG, and potentially winning some more ball is never a bad thing, if he had that string to his bow like a Grundy his game becomes more dangerous adding another dimension.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

No one wants him to take cheap uncontested marks on the wing, but you don't see value in the ruckman getting back in the hole to take big intercept marks either from opposition kickouts? Or being a big marking target for the getout kick after a point is scored or down the line? Or drifting forward on occasion and taking the big goal square mark and goal from a set shot that falls short?

He does a lot of things well and better than other rucks as his relative strengths, but there are other ruckman in the league that do that sort of stuff I've listed and he doesnt, thats the area of relative weakness to them in comparison. And yes it would be great if he could play more TOG, and potentially winning some more ball is never a bad thing, if he had that string to his bow like a Grundy his game becomes more dangerous adding another dimension.

All these things you listed are literally our biggest strengths.

We don’t need him to fill that role. In fact doing something like going to the goal square would actually make it more difficult for us as a team.

 

[joop]

I have crunched the "Stats And Facts" and although it's difficult with the uneven number of games, you can see two names starting
to emerge from the pack as possible inclusions Jayden Short and a sneaky bench chance in Shai Bolton. Both these players happen
to play for Richmond which is pure coincidence and not any bias of any kind.

B: Jayden Short, Harris Andrews, Nick Haynes
HB: Luke Ryan, Robbie Tarrant, Sam Docherty
C: Andrew Gaff, Clayton Oliver, Jordan Ridley
HF: Christian Petracca, Josh Kennedy, Patrick Dangerfield
F: Charlie Cameron, Tom Hawkins, Daniel Butler

Follower: Brodie Grundy, Jackson Macrae, Lachie Neale

I/C: Todd Goldstein, Shai Bolton, Jarryd Lyons, Travis Boak

Alright i admit it's a total botch, but i do like a tall wing with great disposal who can mark the ball.

Overall Steele has had a better and more consistent year than Oliver.

 

[juss]

All these things you listed are literally our biggest strengths.

We don’t need him to fill that role. In fact doing something like going to the goal square would actually make it more difficult for us as a team.

As a player though, I wonder if that would be exposed more at a weaker side, rather than the more rounded games of the players people argue are potentially better ruckman than him, Gawn, Grundy, Goldstein? The Weagles can cover those aspects, but they are still relative weaknesses of NN as a player compared to peers.

 

[juss]

I have crunched the "Stats And Facts" and although it's difficult with the uneven number of games, you can see two names starting
to emerge from the pack as possible inclusions Jayden Short and a sneaky bench chance in Shai Bolton. Both these players happen
to play for Richmond which is pure coincidence and not any bias of any kind.

B: Jayden Short, Harris Andrews, Nick Haynes
HB: Luke Ryan, Robbie Tarrant, Sam Docherty
C: Andrew Gaff, Clayton Oliver, Jordan Ridley
HF: Christian Petracca, Josh Kennedy, Patrick Dangerfield
F: Charlie Cameron, Tom Hawkins, Daniel Butler

Follower: Brodie Grundy, Jackson Macrae, Lachie Neale

I/C: Todd Goldstein, Shai Bolton, Jarryd Lyons, Travis Boak

Alright i admit it's a total botch, but i do like a tall wing with great disposal who can mark the ball.

Probably not in my 22, but a sneaky chance for the 40 man squad, even if they missed that I wouldn't be too surprised, depends how they finish the year.
Bolton will be a star, but still has a lot of development left in his game. He can occasionally drift out of games, particularly in second halves. Probably an endurance thing given he's only really moved to the midfield this season, and probably because injury opened up some spots. There have been better midfielders.

Short, he's had a great season at club level. But the defence is again so contested that his attacking play probably doesn't do enough to mitigate against his relative defence. He doesn't take those intercept marks, isn't a huge pressure player, and generally not noted as a lockdown small. To overcome those to be named on a flank, he'd need to be averaging 25+ disposals and be killing teams on the rebound to get a gig.

Good players, great club seasons, probably not AA 22.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

As a player though, I wonder if that would be exposed more at a weaker side, rather than the more rounded games of the players people argue are potentially better ruckman than him, Gawn, Grundy, Goldstein? The Weagles can cover those aspects, but they are still relative weaknesses of NN as a player compared to peers.

I would have thought a bigger weakness would be Gawns and Grundys inability to hit the scoreboard with any regularity given how their teams have struggled to score.

 

[Lach72]

Weird the lack of Shepherd in these teams

 

[Lach72]

Updated side:

Haynes - Andrews - Wilkie
Daniel - Jonas - Saad
Boak - Steele - Gaff
Butler - Hawkins - Dangerfield
Papley - Kennedy - Dixon
Naitanui - Petracca - Neale
Adams - Macrae - Maynard - C Cameron

For me, to truly reflect a side it either has to be:

7 def (back 6 and Maynard)/5 IM (Steele, Petracca, Neale, Danger, Adams)/3 OM (Boak, Gaff, Macrae)/1 ruck (NN)/6 for (5 forwards and CC) or 7 def/5 IM/3 OM/2 rucks/5 forwards (Swap Goldy/Gawn for Cameron)

You pick 7 defenders and still can't fit either Shepherd or Ryan in?

Cmon man

 

[Yojimbo]

Overall Steele has had a better and more consistent year than Oliver.

He made the forty man squad joop, Clayton Oliver has tweaked the nipple of success in the last few months and is starting to flourish.

 

[Yojimbo]

Weird the lack of Shepherd in these teams

You must mean Brad Sheppard, he made my forty man squad, but Luke Ryan got the nod for me anyway.

 

[Yojimbo]

Probably not in my 22, but a sneaky chance for the 40 man squad, even if they missed that I wouldn't be too surprised, depends how they finish the year.
Bolton will be a star, but still has a lot of development left in his game. He can occasionally drift out of games, particularly in second halves. Probably an endurance thing given he's only really moved to the midfield this season, and probably because injury opened up some spots. There have been better midfielders.

Short, he's had a great season at club level. But the defence is again so contested that his attacking play probably doesn't do enough to mitigate against his relative defence. He doesn't take those intercept marks, isn't a huge pressure player, and generally not noted as a lockdown small. To overcome those to be named on a flank, he'd need to be averaging 25+ disposals and be killing teams on the rebound to get a gig.

Good players, great club seasons, probably not AA 22.

True, very much personal preference and game style same with using Jordan Ridley on a wing, will likely never happen they will
just roll out their long line of inside mids to fill the outside rolls like normal.

 

[Trav 20]

Overall Steele has had a better and more consistent year than Oliver.

I marginally agree with this, notwithstanding Oliver's superior numbers.

But Oliver is closing the gap very quickly.

With six matches to go I expect him to fly past if he can retain the form of the last 3 weeks, which is career best.

 

[juss]

I would have thought a bigger weakness would be Gawns and Grundys inability to hit the scoreboard with any regularity given how their teams have struggled to score.

Relative to who though? Between NN, Goldstein, Gawn and Grundy the career average goals per game is 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3.

There's not an enormous meaningful difference between that, none of them are particularly strong scorers, so I wouldn't call it a strength or weakness compared to their peers. Those numbers ranging from 0.2-0.6 goals per game are pretty consistent across the league's rucks that no one really stands out.