Analysis Rome wasn't re-built in a day

[left at home]

We'll have to lose some ladder position in order to gain draft position, I accept that. But how far will this year's draft get us?

I'd like us to take a bigger bite out of the draft in the next two years, which might mean trading decent players for draft picks. The problem with this approach is that a new coach (big assumption there!) might then be left with an even bigger basket case of a team, one which won't come good for 3-4 years. This is not a prospect most new coaches will gladly take on.

In other words, there's a tension between re-building the list and replacing a coach, one which isn't easily resolved.

To me you keep the best and trade and delist the rest over time. You add talent to talent, not keep the it the same level. Need to keep the experience good players, cause hopefully they help in teaching the younger ones, set the professional standards.
Our problem is when we have our best team out there, it’s pretty good, we just don’t see it enough. Right now we are a team in transition, with two many not quite up to it on the list

 

[CFC2010]

Hysterical timing (not the funny type, the panicky one) to be bringing this up after Rd 1. Not a lot that can be done about list management until later on, unless you are talking about tanking.

Tanking is the equivalent to ball tampering IMO.

I had low expectations on this year as I think our list is average.
Although the Hawks performance was abysmal I think we will end up in similar positions on the ladder.

 

[MagpieBat]

Nuke the Holden Center from orbit and rebuild the entire club. Not just the list.

Single reactor ignition, only...

 

[JB1975]

To me you keep the best and trade and delist the rest over time. You add talent to talent, not keep the it the same level. Need to keep the experience good players, cause hopefully they help in teaching the younger ones, set the professional standards.
Our problem is when we have our best team out there, it’s pretty good, we just don’t see it enough. Right now we are a team in transition, with two many not quite up to it on the list

I hear what you're saying, Lefty, but I suppose it depends on how you feel about your prospects. If you're unlikely to become a meaningful contender in the next 2-3 seasons, then it might make more sense to shop some of those talented players around in order to buy into the future more heavily. But if you feel more optimistic about the list and its short-term future then it certainly makes sense to hold onto what you have.

 

[left at home]

Tanking is the equivalent to ball tampering IMO.

I had low expectations on this year as I think our list is average.
Although the Hawks performance was abysmal I think we will end up in similar positions on the ladder.


View attachment 475044

I really don’t think we need to tank, as you say we could finish around the same position as last years.
I would rather us have done a clean out last year and went heavy in the draft, cause not to many are going to give up position this year, and the talent was not that bad

 

[loki04]

Hysterical timing (not the funny type, the panicky one) to be bringing this up after Rd 1. Not a lot that can be done about list management until later on, unless you are talking about tanking.

But after so many years of same same is it a round 1 post?

Some of these posters have been saying similar for a while.

Hawks game was just a continuation of it.


Some one said it aptly it didn't feel like round 1 2018, it felt like round 24 2017!

 

[Peter Sidorkiewicz]

• Partial or total? Maybe our list is only slightly 'unbalanced', maybe it is beyond salvation, or maybe it is just right.
• A re-build with or without Buckley?
• Which players should be delisted?
• Which players can/should be traded? Is Ben Reid's trade value diminishing faster than his hair?
• How much attention do we pay to recruiting players for need, or do we mostly focus on the draft?
• How long do you think a re-build will take before it yields a finals appearance?
• How long could a new coach be expected to weather the storm of a re-build?

My response:
1. Partial rebuild is only required. A total rebuild would involve trading the likes of our older players and apart from Pendlebury they don't hold much trade value.
2. Definitely without Buckley. He has had a go at re-building the side post Mick Malthouse and he has cocked it up.
3. Based on the players coming out of contact, I wouldn't re-sign any of the following: Blair, Broomhead, Crocker, Goldsack (unlucky because of his injury but he isn't going to be apart of next premiership, we shouldn't re-sign him because he is a "good bloke" when we have a younger capable player in Matt Scharenberg waiting in the wings), Greenwood, Oxley, Sier, Smith, J.Thomas, Varcoe.
4. Taylor Adams is no.1 of my trade list. He butchers the ball and I rather keep Treloar. Jordan De Goey is the 2nd players I would trade due to his indiscretions. Alex Fasolo would be the 3rd player on the list to open a forward pocket spot for the likes of Kayle Kirby & Josh Daicos. Ben Reid can't be traded as he is an unrestricted free agent.
5. We need to address our key position depth issues. I would rather focus at the draft rather than trading for mature age players. Explore getting Tom Lynch but if the price is too high, walk away.
6. With the right new head coach, it could take as little as two years. More realistic is three to five years.
7. Three to five years.

 

[BringouttheGimp]

I don't understand how we can criticize our list so much when there's 8 or so players who either haven't played a game yet or are around the 5-10 game mark.

Every list has 6-8 players that are delisting types.

Every club plays a season with close wins/loses yet we seem to use the excuse that.. 'we were in the game right up until the last quarter or minute'. A loss is a friggen loss.

We are so biased about how we got screwed in trades and drafts.. we only look at what we perceive to be bad deals.. well what about our good ones.. how's about we look at other clubs f ups as well. Are we blinded by how fortunate we were to trade O'Brien and Kennedy to Melbourne for eg.

As far as Nathan goes.. the bloke is a bad coach.. why.. refer to my 500 posts on him.

Im so confused as to what his trying to accomplish. Haven't the slightest clue.

 

[DaVe86]

I can't see us winning without De Goey, Elliott, Goldsack, Greenwood and Wells.

Given our difficult opening month, I'd be shocked if we win a game in the next few weeks.

If we are 0-4, then absolutely we should plan for the future.

The players I most want to get games into are McLarty, Sier, Scharenberg, Kirby, Daicos and Brown...along with Stephenson and Murray.

I don't want us to make another run for 12th spot after a slow start.

The games named can very easily replace Josh Smith, Crisp, Phillips, Cox and Langdon.

Anyone that can't kick other than Treloar and Adams shouldn't be in the side. We can carry those 2 because they are guns, but everyone else are just liabilities.

 

[loki04]

To me you keep the best and trade and delist the rest over time. You add talent to talent, not keep the it the same level. Need to keep the experience good players, cause hopefully they help in teaching the younger ones, set the professional standards.
Our problem is when we have our best team out there, it’s pretty good, we just don’t see it enough. Right now we are a team in transition, with two many not quite up to it on the list

It depends if you can trade an "excess" off or a player you feel can be covered, but yes you do need to retain as much of your best talent while adding to it.

 

[left at home]

I hear what you're saying, Lefty, but I suppose it depends on how you feel about your prospects. If you're unlikely to become a meaningful contender in the next 2-3 seasons, then it might make more sense to shop some of those talented players around in order to buy into the future more heavily. But if you feel more optimistic about the list and its short-term future then it certainly makes sense to hold onto what you have.

What held Melbourne back was not talent, but no experience to help them. Cannot get rid of it all. If you don’t add to the talent base you just stay the same. As l have said, and people will disagree with, but we have a great platform to launch from. Our base is not too bad.
Missing a few pieces but not half a team.

 

[loki04]

Tanking is the equivalent to ball tampering IMO.

I had low expectations on this year as I think our list is average.
Although the Hawks performance was abysmal I think we will end up in similar positions on the ladder.

Don't term it tanking.

It is blooding youth and injury management to prepare for 2019 preseason and genuine improvement.

I want to see a 2005 management year, only if things continue to go to the shit by round 11-12 the call will need to be made.

 

[sideswipe]

Tanking is the equivalent to ball tampering IMO.



View attachment 475044

Talking about tanking after Rd 1 was a joke clearly too well hidden by its lack of humor.

 

[loki04]

What held Melbourne back was not talent, but no experience to help them. Cannot get rid of it all. If you don’t add to the talent base you just stay the same. As l have said, and people will disagree with, but we have a great platform to launch from. Our base is not too bad.
Missing a few pieces but not half a team.

They over did it as did Carlton of the same era.

The sold off the whole farm had nothing to guide the new into the AFL.


We need to do similar to what we did in 05.

 

[JB1975]

My response:
1. Partial rebuild is only required. A total rebuild would involve trading the likes of our older players and apart from Pendlebury they don't hold much trade value.
2. Definitely without Buckley. He has had a go at re-building the side post Mick Malthouse and he has cocked it up.
3. Based on the players coming out of contact, I wouldn't re-sign any of the following: Blair, Broomhead, Crocker, Goldsack (unlucky because of his injury but he isn't going to be apart of next premiership, we shouldn't re-sign him because he is a "good bloke" when we have a younger capable player in Matt Scharenberg waiting in the wings), Greenwood, Oxley, Sier, Smith, J.Thomas, Varcoe.
4. Taylor Adams is no.1 of my trade list. He butchers the ball and I rather keep Treloar. Jordan De Goey is the 2nd players I would trade due to his indiscretions. Alex Fasolo would be the 3rd player on the list to open a forward pocket spot for the likes of Kayle Kirby & Josh Daicos. Ben Reid can't be traded as he is an unrestricted free agent.
5. We need to address our key position depth issues. I would rather focus at the draft rather than trading for mature age players. Explore getting Tom Lynch but if the price is too high, walk away.
6. With the right new head coach, it could take as little as two years. More realistic is three to five years.
7. Three to five years.

Kudos on throwing some names around. I agree with some, not with others.

It has been discussed elsewhere, but the merits of trading Adams in the context of a rebuild (partial or total) seems questionable. Leadership is important, whether you're climbing off the bottom of the ladder or challenging for the flag. It seems to be that we don't have too many leaders among our group, and Adams at least gives us something in that regard.

 

[left at home]

It depends if you can trade an "excess" off or a player you feel can be covered, but yes you do need to retain as much of your best talent while adding to it.

I just don’t see that we have that cover player in the high talent. And really the only ones who could get us the top picks are steel and Moore who losing would counter productive. But there are some excess players though. Broomhead, Greenwood Oxley Blair are ones for a start

 

[Horaceg]

I'd love to add something constructive to this thread but my head space just is not where it should be, disappointed and hoping that next week is more positive. It's not that we lost, we just never looked like winning. I watched Carlton and was hoping for something like that from our mob, DeGoey, Wells, Elliott will help on the scoreboard but something needs to be done to change the culture at the Club, the effort was mediocre and we don't look like winners.

Carlton's Wee coach was seething they lost, Buckley was as philosophical as ever. I want him get angry, get pissed, throw sh1t, don't accept mediocrity.

 

[loki04]

I hear what you're saying, Lefty, but I suppose it depends on how you feel about your prospects. If you're unlikely to become a meaningful contender in the next 2-3 seasons, then it might make more sense to shop some of those talented players around in order to buy into the future more heavily. But if you feel more optimistic about the list and its short-term future then it certainly makes sense to hold onto what you have.

Within reason.

Need enough experience to guide the next group through or you really will be stuck in mire for a decade, some top line talent never recovers from the confidence smashing of trying to carry to early.

 

[CFC2010]

Don't term it tanking.

It is blooding youth and injury management to prepare for 2019 preseason and genuine improvement.

I want to see a 2005 management year, only if things continue to go to the shit by round 11-12 the call will need to be made.

 

[JB1975]

Talking about tanking after Rd 1 was a joke clearly too well hidden by its lack of humor.

The OP isn't about tanking. It didn't advocate tanking, explicitly or implicitly.

 

[loki04]

I just don’t see that we have that cover player in the high talent. And really the only ones who could get us the top picks are steel and Moore who losing would counter productive. But there are some excess players though. Broomhead, Greenwood Oxley Blair are ones for a start

Yeah getting that top 10 pick would/will very be hard or cost you a Sideass.


If you are only dropping 1 senior talent it can be ok and recouped if you nail the draft pick recieved.

 

[sideswipe]

I'd love to add something constructive to this thread but my head space just is not where it should be, disappointed and hoping that next week is more positive. It's not that we lost, we just never looked like winning. I watched Carlton and was hoping for something like that from our mob, DeGoey, Wells, Elliott will help on the scoreboard but something needs to be done to change the culture at the Club, the effort was mediocre and we don't look like winners.

Carlton's Wee coach was seething they lost, Buckley was as philosophical as ever. I want him get angry, get pissed, throw sh1t, don't accept mediocrity.

Don't get too upset about Carlton being angry. Their loser supporters were so happy with their apparent progress that they were singing the song in the Bullring on Thursday night.

AFTER the game.

 

[sideswipe]

The OP isn't about tanking. It didn't advocate tanking, explicitly or implicitly.

Geez, I brought it up.

 

[loki04]

View attachment 475053

Can you tell me how you felt about 2005 season and the decisions made that year, the resultant picks and the flow on effect for the future flag side?


I feel like you are worried of doing a Melbourne or Carlton of mid-late 00s, rather then a 1-2 year drop like us, Saints, Hawks, Port and others have done in seasons past.

And I'm not saying from our position right now, Im saying come half way point and we are in similar spot to last year don't try fight it out for 10-12th spot.

 

[CFC2010]

Don't get too upset about Carlton being angry. Their loser supporters were so happy with their apparent progress that they were singing the song in the Bullring on Thursday night.

AFTER the game.

Not sure if joking or serious again sideswipe.

If that is true.....then that beats all the melt downs since Saturday on here.