DudleyDocker
Cancelled
I don't see anyone saying he's never wrong either. Maybe we could all go a bit easy on the hyperbole?
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List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked
- Thread starter jedi mind tricks
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- Jul 9, 2010
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One win where his hand was forced does not make a difference. People will do anything to forgive this arrogant clown.
Yes he finally played young guys and yes Suban and Pearce were finally arsed but this was a year or two too late. He is reactive. He will not change and his narrative this pre-season of reverting to a 'successful old game plan' is scary and still something to consider. He never started to replace this deadwood years ago when it was obvious they were as good as they were ever going to get, and getting to an age where you have to be very good.
Meh. Don't care.
Yes he finally played young guys and yes Suban and Pearce were finally arsed but this was a year or two too late. He is reactive. He will not change and his narrative this pre-season of reverting to a 'successful old game plan' is scary and still something to consider. He never started to replace this deadwood years ago when it was obvious they were as good as they were ever going to get, and getting to an age where you have to be very good.
Meh. Don't care.
Just like some people will blame him for all Freo's problem regardless of what he do?
Let's be honest, we are not out of the woods yet. Let's just enjoy the win as they come for now.
DudleyDocker
Cancelled
Haha, you must be really burning up that we had a win. How did your team go on the weekend?
- Apr 26, 2011
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I.would pay just to watch.Ross speak
- Jul 9, 2010
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Ross needs to go and this win will just give him more credits to keep the status quo.
You are right, it isn't entirely his fault. But at the same time a lot of it is. The rest of the blame should go to Bond and Lloyd for their average drafting and questionable disregard for shaking up the list as necessary.
I still feel exactly the same as I do towards Ross Lyon and those two this week, as I did last week.
There is a lot of reactive thinking on this board whereby one win colours the issues of the last 18 months irrelevant. The underlying problems still are there. They still should be questioned.
They need to go.
DudleyDocker
Cancelled
Do you pine for the Mark Harvey days? Connolly, Allen, Drum, Neesham?
What is it exactly you want once you have burned the club to the ground - do you even have an alternative? Or is it just "they are all shit, get someone better"?
Of course there is reactive thinking on this board when we have a win - it's called taking pleasure from a win. You should try it some time instead of getting it from your usual source.
And I'll say you are right, this win may be a fluke (remember St Kilda consistently beat us when we were good?). So your opinion of Ross (and Lloyd and Bond) should not change because of one match.
And I agree that they should be judged as a unit, since their decisions and work are in the end intertwined.
What I have to disagree with you is that I think they have done their job and brought us a period of success. Yes, it can be better. In hindsight, We could have drafted/traded/developed better. We should have rested Pav and McPharlin more. But we were playing finals consistently and made a GF.
I suspect you would disagree with me that that period is considered successful (we didn't win a flag afterall), that's ok, we can agree to disagree.
Ross have had successes at St Kilda and he had his successes with us in the past (yes, subjective). Does that mean he will continue to be successful and lead us back into contention? No necessary of course. But I still see him as a better option now unless someone superior comes along. He'll make mistakes, and he'll do good as well. I'm good as long as the outcome is net positive.
I do not profess to be any good at running a football team, so I'll let's the coaches do their work
I'll do mine as a fan and continue to support the team.
- Apr 21, 2014
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Yeah I agree. Like the 2015 second half. He's not a ****ing magician.
However i'd be open to believing shit like players were against dropping certain individuals. It's absolutely feasible that loyal cliques exist, and what player wants to actively lose (often synonymous with 'playing kids' but clearly not in our case).
Ultimately there is no ****ing way we will ever know. One thing I do take comfort in is that if there was resistance to playing kids; be it from Ross, the leadership group, admin or the ****ing janitor, everyone should be on the same page now.
DannyTheDoorman
Club Legend
- Apr 24, 2015
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The team is picked on a consensus basis by the Match Committee so it's not all Ross's fault so if you listen to Ross's pressers he often says that so get up to date with what really happens in regards selection methodology. I saw another of your posts on BF where you claim you have been saying for years Grey should have been picked. When did you post those comments on BF or are you trying to get some sort of credit from a perceived wisdom you have about selection albeit after the fact.
- Jan 14, 2008
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If you show a positive attitude towards the club you're a sycophant according to some on here. If you except the loss graciously you're accepting mediocrity what ever the **ck that is by some on here. I'm like you I get pleasure out of a win. If they lose it hurts and you criticise and hate the world for a couple of days and then you realise you're not going to be suddenly afflicted by a deadly disease, its just a game, you get over it and move on to the next game. What would I rather be , a supporter who gets enjoyment out of the club and their ups and downs and has a beer and a laugh with like minded supporters or a miserable ,whinging, backstabbing ,soul less , sad excuse twat who no matter what the club does will find a reason to criticise. If I'm a sycophant I'll take that every day of the week over the whingers.
Is there a spiffy term coined by some academic to describe this "dammed if you do; dammed if you don't" thing?
Lyon doesn't play yoof = dickhead.
Lyon plays yoof = should have done it years ago. Dickhead.
My 2 cents: I get the impression he likes his core group of 25-30 seasoned players. But I reckon these days your entire list should be ready to go when called upon. No "favourites" for want of a better term, but 40+ players all ready to go.
This is why I'm hesitant about our training drills being a best 22 V likely Peel. All players should be expected to run out in the best 22 at any given time.
Lyon doesn't play yoof = dickhead.
Lyon plays yoof = should have done it years ago. Dickhead.
My 2 cents: I get the impression he likes his core group of 25-30 seasoned players. But I reckon these days your entire list should be ready to go when called upon. No "favourites" for want of a better term, but 40+ players all ready to go.
This is why I'm hesitant about our training drills being a best 22 V likely Peel. All players should be expected to run out in the best 22 at any given time.
- Jul 9, 2010
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This is facebook-tier. Next time you stump up $20 and see a shit movie, and complain about it, I hope you're a credible critic and have an idea on who would have been a better cast, cinematographer, director, and why.
I'm not in the industry so I do not get paid to research or know who is a well considered list manager or recruiter. I would say Hawthorn and Geelong have the best list management in the comp.
But it is obvious what we have is stale. The recruitment side has been shithouse for years. Just because I'm notable to give you a thick, bound, glossy dossier of several possible coaches and assistants and another one on a set of list managers and recruiters, doesn't mean my opinion is null and void: are you happy with our trading? Our drafting? Do you think the people we have are actually good? Do you believe they're going to get better? No and no to all of those in my humble. I don't know who is better because I have other things in life and even if I wanted to try and suss out better people, I really don't know the function and operations of other clubs or other people. I kind of can't know that as an irrelevant, normal watcher of the game.
A week ago I was saying this and was not getting shouted down. A win after a half season, a full season, and two deplorable games means nothing. The team has been going downhill since the streak ended in 2015, which is fast approaching two years ago.
I bet we see Dawson and Suban back in a few weeks time and the cycle continues. Ross Lyon is far too stubborn to change. And even if he does, it is all a little too late... you have to be predictive and bold and drop those older guys before they become a liability. Unfortunately they have been liabilities for far too long, and taking them out now is almost redundant. The younger guys who now sit on 5-15 games should have double that under their belt.
Did RTB have a beef with him?
I remember he had to "excuse himself" the last time Ross was on 360.
- Jun 5, 2015
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Is it so hard to celebrate a win? Why you need to stop everybody from enjoying a win just because you are not happy with what the club do . I get all of us get upset or melt with the club by opposition trashing , but a hard fought win
Cheer up.
It's a reasonable question to ask.
- Jul 9, 2010
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Well he should have done it years ago. Better late than never but this is something he has done once. If this trend continues and we see 10 more debuts this year then I'll be happily shocked and surprised, but ultimately I doubt this will happen again anytime soon. He will placate the complaints with this blooding and re-blooding. He will quieten the critics, fans and media, with this win.
A lot of people are like the abused in a bad relationship. They come home with flowers after giving you a hit; you aren't hurt for a week and you think it's all in the past. Fremantle were terrible last season, an abomination, and people let it go. Some said it was a bad year, a misstep, and how only a year prior the team won the minor premiership (so what? Peaked mid-season and the wheels were off by round 16). Some believed the conspiracy he was all planning it and we were going to bounce back this season. We give Richmond fans shit. They think it's their year again but they'll be June premiers again and by July Dimma will be threatened again and they'll scrape into the finals if they're lucky. We are the same. Never forget the good times but easily get distracted from the bad, even if it was just a week ago.
Also let's not forget who he played... he brought in Brady Grey who is now being seen as a really good player. That was obvious v Carlton last season. The club for some reason delisted him and all of a sudden he's back. Weird. Also, we gave Balic a match after 18 months and also Griffin Logue was a number 8 draft pick – most clubs play a selection that high in round one. Especially clubs low on the ladder. It's not really that commendable.
Also the Peel v 22 thing creates a loser mentality, it creates a bit of resentment. Must be hard going okay at Peel and not getting a look in when the same old 28 year old potatoes are being forgiven.
Ah **** it, will join this convo. This is just my opinion and perspective - I still think too many are trying to make it black and white.
On game day I'd say a coach's most important responsibility is the game plan and I would define a game plan as how you structure your 18 players on the field and how you define the roles of your 22 players within that structure. As many of us have said over the past fortnight or so, the players were seemingly pretty well structured in all 3 rounds but the execution of their roles was generally very poor in the first two rounds.
I don't believe we won on the weekend solely because we changed 6 players. But I do think the 6 players that came in executed their roles better than those that went out of the team had in rounds 1 and 2. I also think the other 16 players that have played all 3 rounds executed their roles better in round 3 than they had done previously.
Chief amongst the improvement was the pressure by our midfielders and our forwards, which took some pressure off our defenders and allowed them time to setup behind the ball, read the play and intercept often.
I also think our defenders (and all our players for that matter) were also far quicker reacting as a group when we won possession of the ball than they were in rds 1 and 2. What I'd call quicker spread meant our structure forward of the ball took shape sooner and therefore meant our defenders had options to move the ball forwards rather than Rds 1 and 2 where it was too slow and having no options results in kicking backwards and trying to switch etc.
Getting off to a flying start created a positive attitude on the field, a stark contrast to the dropped heads as early as the first quarter in Rd 2. That raised confidence in themselves and their team mates meant they were willing to attack the game more and back themselves in. It also meant the impact of turnovers (we still had 69, 3 more than the Dogs and 1 more than last week) wasn't as sole crushing.
There were still plenty of things we will need to improve to keep going well. Our forward line is still a bit of a mess imo. Doesn't seem to be coordinated and instead relies on individual acts of brilliance. But McCarthy dropped a lot of marks and if he hadn't maybe it would would have appeared more functional than it did?
Our back line worked together well but still has a heap of improvement left in it. Our half backs, and Logue and Spurr in particular can be a heap more attacking than they were. There were also a few times where the Dogs' medium forwards penetrated our defence too easily that we'll need to tighten up on. Is it the right mix of personnel? I'm not sure it is yet but it's clearly a step in the right direction.
If you look at all of the above I think Ross has to take some responsibility for a poor rd 1 and 2 but quite a lot more is about our players executing their roles properly. I think Ross' game plan does hold up fine and it hasn't changed dramatically in 6 days - high pressure football has been his trademark from the very start and it's the primary reason for our change of fortunes imo.
On the flip side I think our match committee, of which Ross is a key piece, have made some poor choices over the past few months and we possibly could have harnessed greater outcomes via the JLT games by spreading and trying those personnel changes earlier. Would we still be on 1 win and 2 losses? Probably.
Everyone makes mistakes and it's easy to criticise retrospectively but unless there is some better coach out there that we don't know about I think RtB is currently still the best guy for the job. Is he perfect and beyond criticism? No, of course not but I think it's naive to assume another coach would have had us performing any better over the past season and a half.
On game day I'd say a coach's most important responsibility is the game plan and I would define a game plan as how you structure your 18 players on the field and how you define the roles of your 22 players within that structure. As many of us have said over the past fortnight or so, the players were seemingly pretty well structured in all 3 rounds but the execution of their roles was generally very poor in the first two rounds.
I don't believe we won on the weekend solely because we changed 6 players. But I do think the 6 players that came in executed their roles better than those that went out of the team had in rounds 1 and 2. I also think the other 16 players that have played all 3 rounds executed their roles better in round 3 than they had done previously.
Chief amongst the improvement was the pressure by our midfielders and our forwards, which took some pressure off our defenders and allowed them time to setup behind the ball, read the play and intercept often.
I also think our defenders (and all our players for that matter) were also far quicker reacting as a group when we won possession of the ball than they were in rds 1 and 2. What I'd call quicker spread meant our structure forward of the ball took shape sooner and therefore meant our defenders had options to move the ball forwards rather than Rds 1 and 2 where it was too slow and having no options results in kicking backwards and trying to switch etc.
Getting off to a flying start created a positive attitude on the field, a stark contrast to the dropped heads as early as the first quarter in Rd 2. That raised confidence in themselves and their team mates meant they were willing to attack the game more and back themselves in. It also meant the impact of turnovers (we still had 69, 3 more than the Dogs and 1 more than last week) wasn't as sole crushing.
There were still plenty of things we will need to improve to keep going well. Our forward line is still a bit of a mess imo. Doesn't seem to be coordinated and instead relies on individual acts of brilliance. But McCarthy dropped a lot of marks and if he hadn't maybe it would would have appeared more functional than it did?
Our back line worked together well but still has a heap of improvement left in it. Our half backs, and Logue and Spurr in particular can be a heap more attacking than they were. There were also a few times where the Dogs' medium forwards penetrated our defence too easily that we'll need to tighten up on. Is it the right mix of personnel? I'm not sure it is yet but it's clearly a step in the right direction.
If you look at all of the above I think Ross has to take some responsibility for a poor rd 1 and 2 but quite a lot more is about our players executing their roles properly. I think Ross' game plan does hold up fine and it hasn't changed dramatically in 6 days - high pressure football has been his trademark from the very start and it's the primary reason for our change of fortunes imo.
On the flip side I think our match committee, of which Ross is a key piece, have made some poor choices over the past few months and we possibly could have harnessed greater outcomes via the JLT games by spreading and trying those personnel changes earlier. Would we still be on 1 win and 2 losses? Probably.
Everyone makes mistakes and it's easy to criticise retrospectively but unless there is some better coach out there that we don't know about I think RtB is currently still the best guy for the job. Is he perfect and beyond criticism? No, of course not but I think it's naive to assume another coach would have had us performing any better over the past season and a half.
Most of them would have by now, if they weren't injured last year.
But let's not let facts get in the way of your tiresome noise.
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #798
Whateley wrote an article about Lyon leaving St Kilda, attacking his integrity. Lyon didn't appreciate that and asked for him to retract it, Whateley told him to go jump, Ross has decided to never contribute to his media career again so will not make himself available for Whateley to interview etc.
Plus Whateley is a despicable lightweight narcissistic cowardly campaigner.
DudleyDocker
Cancelled
Exactly my point SA - you don't know this about our own club either but it doesn't stop you from constantly criticizing all things Freo to anyone who will listen.
I agree with many of the things you have to say, and at times I like the fact that you have a contrary opinion. It just gets tiresome when every time we are having a bad patch you seem to pop up beating your chest about how you predicted "this" would happen years ago. Instead of that why don't you just let go of the angst and enjoy the winning feeling - it may not last long.
You are never going to convince me (or most people on the FREMANTLE board) that the club is rubbish. If you want to get lots of likes for your views go back to posting this stuff on the main board - you know you can get an amazing amount of love there...
