Autopsy Round 1, 2022: Hawks skin the Roos

[Hawthorn23]

A little late, but made sure to include a lot of the little things people may have missed.

 

[joeyhawker]

I think Worpels main problem is that he tries to do too much when he gets the ball. Just take the first simple option and simplify the game for himself. And similar to what Wingard does at times, they are so hell bent on getting it forward in a hurry.... they have the best player at buying himself time without trying to sprint with the ball in Sam as coach, surely they go over these things?? Hard to teach....

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[Guardian Hawk]

Nash not turn up?
Or the acting captain.

As per the last line of my post, I got interrupted by work before I completed my write up so here goes...

Nash - Has his limitations but built into the game, used his big body to win the ball, laid some nice tackles and provided a chop out in the ruck. Useful.
O'Meara - Expectations are higher for him and he started the game very slowly. Like many, had a very good last quarter with some influence in the middle but needs to do that across 4 quarters as a quality senior player.
Hardwick - Not as intercepting and dominant as last year (in a much externally underrated season) but completely shut Zurhaar out of the game. Zurhaar wanted to use his size to bust through but Hardwick epitomised both his name and the no 15 and went just as hard back the other way.
Worpel - Disappointing - a favourite of Sammy's and as expected, got plenty of midfield opportunities but was mostly very quiet. Much tougher task next week but I'm expecting a response.
Phillips - limited game time after coming on as sub. Was fairly influential in his time on the pitch. Kicking can still be very poor, especially for an outside player (which is why he is not best 22). However, he runs hard and importantly, knows where to be to provide an extra number when needed. This in itself is an underrated skill and I wouldn't be syrprised to see him earn his spot because of it sooner or later.

All in all super pleased with the win but acknowledging that we were still scrappy, fumbly and well beaten for large periods in the middle. Going to enjoy the 4 points but recognise that playing at athat level wouldn't beat many (if any) other sides.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

I actually didnt think CJ was BOG for us. Yes, he is exciting. His closing speed and athleticism is amazing. Love, love love him BUT…Frost was way better and matched everything CJ did in that game plus he kept a key pos player quiet. Much more valuable.

Hardwick was amazing and shut Zuurhar down completely.

Scrim had a higher fantasy score because he actually hits targets! OMG laces out to Gunston (which was spoiled by McDonald and his pass to Titch inside 50 matched any highlight of CJs!)

Frost, Hardwick and Scrim, week in week out, for some reason get zero accolades from the media or Hawk fans even!

I sit there in amazement when people get so excited over a CJ uncontested mark on the wing like he has just done something amazing. Someone please explain! Its getting beyond a joke for me! Its like people are blinded by athleticism and don’t see brilliant football skills!




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Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that Frost, Scrimshaw and Hardwick are generally very underrated players (I did a thread on Frost saying as much in the off season and did a stats piece on Hardwick too), I think CJ was better this game and it has nothing to do with athleticism. In fact, I am a "slow twitch" ruckman who has always pumped up the likes of Sam Mitchell and other "athletically challenged" players cos I've always hated the assumption that a burst from a stoppage (and likely turnover, ala Judd or Dangerfield) is somehow considered so much better than the short, stocky genius who wins the hard ball and sets up a teammate with vision rather than speed.

For me CJ was BOG as I truly believe that North's midfield and inside 50 dominance in the first half was very consistently thwarted by CJ such that North were unable to build what should have been an unassailable lead. Time and time again a North player was out and in the clear in what should have been a certain goal and CJ was able to win or halve a contest that he had no right to influence. One such example was Horne Francis was all on his own inside 50 and the kick was going straight to him - it appeared a certainty he would take the mark and kick a goal. It was going right over CJ's head who was nowhere near the contest. CJ backed back and instead of either missing the ball or giving away the free as 99% of players would do, he leapt up and somehow gathered the ball himself. Another example was him leaving his opponent to effect a diving spoil on a free North forward and multiple times he rose above the pack to effectively kill the high ball to the boundary. When you are playing short against 3 rucks that type of stuff is invaluable. He didn't just shut down an opponent, it felt as they he was controlling the back 50 in the first half.

The coaches seemed to agree with that with him receiving (equal) most coaches votes and BOG in all voting systems I found. A North supporter actually said it best on the main board when he said something along the lines of "our best player was McDonald for his incredible intercepting. Hall was probably top 3 for his great rebound but Jiath was something else as he is both of those players (intercepting and rebound) in one- easily best on ground".

 

[FactsNotBS]

I meant to really focus on Frost. Athletically similar to CJ, he also closed down key forwards, not first gamers, and repelled more attacks than CJ. …and Im sorry, just my opinion, but NO WAY did CJ have as much impact as Frost.

I just did a stats comparison on the AFL site. Frost more intercept pos. 12 to 9. 4 tackles v 1. CJ more turnovers and more uncontested pos.

There is definitely a phenomenon going on here I reckon! Why is it that he is seen to be so much more exciting? Scrim, Hardwick and Frost arent athletically challenged. CJ does some really embarrassing turnovers like Frost but somehow we forget CJ’s and not Frosts.

Scrim hits targets, he has better skills both sides, a better intercept mark, makes better decisions, is more consistent etc etc, his skills are way more silky.

I agree, even the coaches seem obsessed with CJ.

Hardwick beats his opponent every week. Most of them are the oppos gun forward who kick goals. He gets coaches votes but fans consistently dont have him in our best. Incredibly consistent.

You have to admit there is a phenomenon that makes CJ seem to be way better than he actually is compared to other Hawk stars.

Is it because we all want a person who was born in another country, who is not native to our game, to be good at our game? Is that what is exciting?


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If CJ can play consistent footy this year, this phenomenon will win him a Brownlow lol!!!


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[Guardian Hawk]

I meant to really focus on Frost. Athletically similar to CJ, he also closed down key forwards, not first gamers, and repelled more attacks than CJ. …and Im sorry, just my opinion, but NO WAY did CJ have as much impact as Frost.

I just did a stats comparison on the AFL site. Frost more intercept pos. 12 to 9. 4 tackles v 1. CJ more turnovers and more uncontested pos.

There is definitely a phenomenon going on here I reckon! Why is it that he is seen to be so much more exciting? Scrim, Hardwick and Frost arent athletically challenged. CJ does some really embarrassing turnovers like Frost but somehow we forget CJ’s and not Frosts.

Scrim hits targets, he has better skills both sides, a better intercept mark, makes better decisions, is more consistent etc etc, his skills are way more silky.

I agree, even the coaches seem obsessed with CJ.

Hardwick beats his opponent every week. Most of them are the oppos gun forward who kick goals. He gets coaches votes but fans consistently dont have him in our best. Incredibly consistent.

You have to admit there is a phenomenon that makes CJ seem to be way better than he actually is compared to other Hawk stars.

Is it because we all want a person who was born in another country, who is not native to our game, to be good at our game? Is that what is exciting?


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I hoped this didn't end up going down the race line tbh so I would prefer to ignore that part if that is Ok?. I can't speak for everyone but I don't rate Jiath way above Scrimshaw or Hardwick. I rated his game on the weekend as better and that is all and I've backed that up - it's not only the stats, it was his ability to affect contests that he had no right to and most others are incapable of. On career to date, Hardwick is miles in front and Scrimshaw in front to a lesser extent. I provided my rationale for the game on the weekend and believe that the coaches that gave votes would not do so if others who didn't get votes played better - especially not for racially motivated reasons. This is evident through the B&F results last year where Hardwick was again top 2, Frost top 10 and Scrimshaw did pretty well too. This doesn't suggest the coaching staff are blinded by his story or background - it's just that he played better in this one particular game. It's almost a consensus view so I would like to politely suggest that may be your perception may be a little off in this instance?

 

[hawkman]

I think it is more that Jiath wins or halves contests that are 20-80 against him. No other Hawthorn player is marking that first contest against Horne-Francis same with the contest in the last quarter where Jiath manages to get a spoil in

 

[RX Hawk]

Worpel had 7 pressure acts for the game, which was clearly the lowest amongst the midfield group. Only Reeves, DGB, CJ and Lynch had less.

For contrast Nash had 23, Mitchell had 22, Maginess had 16, JOM had 14, Phillips had 13, Newcombe had 10 and Ward had 9.

Not sure his pressure was bang on based on what I saw, and the stats that back it up.

Most impressed with Nash - it is better for the club that with each game his performance improves. Once he went to ruck he was superb. If every week he could be our backup Sam will not have to play 2 pure rucks.

 

[Howe Amazing]

Most impressed with Nash - it is better for the club that with each game his performance improves. Once he went to ruck he was superb. If every week he could be our backup Sam will not have to play 2 pure rucks.

I have said this for a while if we want to go another midfielder again we could use Nash as 2nd ruck for 20% of the game. It gives options at least

 

[tommyk72]

I have said this for a while if we want to go another midfielder again we could use Nash as 2nd ruck for 20% of the game. It gives options at least

I know I saw Nash do a decent chunk of rucking. How well did he go? Is there scope for this?

 

[hawkman]

I know I saw Nash do a decent chunk of rucking. How well did he go? Is there scope for this?

Next Jim Stynes



Maybe a slight exaggeration

 

[ahhhhhh]

I hoped this didn't end up going down the race line tbh so I would prefer to ignore that part if that is Ok?. I can't speak for everyone but I don't rate Jiath way above Scrimshaw or Hardwick. I rated his game on the weekend as better and that is all and I've backed that up - it's not only the stats, it was his ability to affect contests that he had no right to and most others are incapable of. On career to date, Hardwick is miles in front and Scrimshaw in front to a lesser extent. I provided my rationale for the game on the weekend and believe that the coaches that gave votes would not do so if others who didn't get votes played better - especially not for racially motivated reasons. This is evident through the B&F results last year where Hardwick was again top 2, Frost top 10 and Scrimshaw did pretty well too. This doesn't suggest the coaching staff are blinded by his story or background - it's just that he played better in this one particular game. It's almost a consensus view so I would like to politely suggest that may be your perception may be a little off in this instance?

There were hints it was going down the race line in his initial post. I would say his whole opinion is being driven by undertones of subconscious racism unfortunately…

Anyone watching could see CJ controlled the air and made a number of key spoils/pressure acts when the game was in the balance, the coaches seemed to agree too.

The fact the poster even brought up where he born is a disgrace and in my opinion both posts should be deleted.

 

[Slainte]

The highlight of the day is one I don't believe anybody has mentioned yet.

Newcombe from 60m out hitting Gunston on the chest in the pocket with zero margin for error on the kick. You need the vision to spot the option, the balls to pull the trigger and the skill to nail it. Anybody who has played footy has either dreamt of achieving that kick or still reminisces daily about the time they managed to achieve it.

A few have commented on Newcombe's kicking, but I agree with you - that one was special. It was so good I couldn't help wondering if he had fluked it. However, you could see the intent when he put it to boot. That kick and that mark were the two things that made my think this guy is special - much more than just a tough inside mid who can lay tackles.

 

[KermitJagger]

I have said this for a while if we want to go another midfielder again we could use Nash as 2nd ruck for 20% of the game. It gives options at least

Attended 8 stoppages as a ruck, got 3 taps and wasn't exploited the other way as a lot of stop-gap rucks would be. He did much better than I thought he would, particularly against Goldstein, but it would still be a pretty risky tactic against rucks like Grundy and Gawn.

 

[Brishawk]

Attended 8 stoppages as a ruck, got 3 taps and wasn't exploited the other way as a lot of stop-gap rucks would be. He did much better than I thought he would, particularly against Goldstein, but it would still be a pretty risky tactic against rucks like Grundy and Gawn.

He wouldn’t ruck v them. He’d be up against Jackson and cox. Probably our best match up to go with Jackson around the ground.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

I meant to really focus on Frost. Athletically similar to CJ, he also closed down key forwards, not first gamers, and repelled more attacks than CJ. …and Im sorry, just my opinion, but NO WAY did CJ have as much impact as Frost.

I just did a stats comparison on the AFL site. Frost more intercept pos. 12 to 9. 4 tackles v 1. CJ more turnovers and more uncontested pos.

There is definitely a phenomenon going on here I reckon! Why is it that he is seen to be so much more exciting? Scrim, Hardwick and Frost arent athletically challenged. CJ does some really embarrassing turnovers like Frost but somehow we forget CJ’s and not Frosts.

Scrim hits targets, he has better skills both sides, a better intercept mark, makes better decisions, is more consistent etc etc, his skills are way more silky.

I agree, even the coaches seem obsessed with CJ.

Hardwick beats his opponent every week. Most of them are the oppos gun forward who kick goals. He gets coaches votes but fans consistently dont have him in our best. Incredibly consistent.

You have to admit there is a phenomenon that makes CJ seem to be way better than he actually is compared to other Hawk stars.

Is it because we all want a person who was born in another country, who is not native to our game, to be good at our game? Is that what is exciting?


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This is a pox take
A poor take
A shocking take

Here's a fact for you

CJ is a star due to his footballing prowess

Not where he came from

Put this dinosaur take in the bin

 

[TazHawk15]

Next Jim Stynes



Maybe a slight exaggeration

To be sure to be sure.

 

[cryptor]

Watched the game again last night. I didn't think Worpel's game was as bad as is being made out. It wasn't great but he did some nice things and could have been considered to have done even more if receiving players had taken the marks. Newcombe had plenty of howlers but people seem to be willing to overlook them because the nice things he did actually came off, but could have just as easily not had the receiving players also dropped the marks or fumbled.

Was really impressed with Morrison and Nash. Played very team oriented games all day. Nash in particular for going into the ruck and holding his own. Reeves was cooked by late in the game and without Nash giving him a chop out Xerri and Goldstein could have turned the game for North.

 

[cryptor]

Also this will probably ruffle a few feathers but I was pretty happy with Wingard being able to bob up and kick 2 goals when North through Goldstein had managed to reel the margin back in. Players on both sides were running on fumes and if North had got the next goal to steal the lead that might have inspired them to keep going. Wingard's goals completely knocked the wind out of their sails and gave our guys a boost.

Yes, it would be great if a player of Wingard's calibre could kick 5 goals against that opposition, but on the other hand if he's going to have a quiet game then the one thing I'd want from him is to show up for a few minutes and kick a couple momentum turning goals to correct the ship.

 

[Hodgey 15]

Is it because we all want a person who was born in another country, who is not native to our game, to be good at our game? Is that what is exciting

This is complete garbage.
I(we) love CJ for what he does on the field.
Your user name needs a rethink.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

Is it because we all want a person who was born in another country, who is not native to our game, to be good at our game? Is that what is exciting?


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Nope.
Every time he gets the ball he opens the game up. This is exciting.
So many times he comes from nowhere to win/halve a contest. That is exciting.
He's only played a handful of games and is already playing great footy - so is likely to become A LOT better. This is exciting.
He's is one of the best runners at the club despite only having done a couple of preseason. This is exciting.
He was drafted as a Cat B rookie but is now a key player in the team's defense. This is exciting.

None of these five things have anything to do with the country he was born in.

 

[thehardway]

Also this will probably ruffle a few feathers but I was pretty happy with Wingard being able to bob up and kick 2 goals when North through Goldstein had managed to reel the margin back in. Players on both sides were running on fumes and if North had got the next goal to steal the lead that might have inspired them to keep going. Wingard's goals completely knocked the wind out of their sails and gave our guys a boost.

Yes, it would be great if a player of Wingard's calibre could kick 5 goals against that opposition, but on the other hand if he's going to have a quiet game then the one thing I'd want from him is to show up for a few minutes and kick a couple momentum turning goals to correct the ship.

Agree. Wingard is a match winner and those goals stopped any momentum North had. He's had an ankle injury I believe which has hindered his preparation so is finding his way back to fitness and form. We'll need him on song next week against PA.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

This is complete garbage.
I(we) love CJ for what he does on the field.
Your user name needs a rethink.

I love him for both reasons - for what he does on the field (dash, flair, athleticism, speed) and for his interesting background.

Of course we want player with such diverse backgrounds to succeed, you can't deny that his background doesn't add another interesting element to his story.

Note: I'm not agreeing with the post you quoted. But it's not wrong to acknowledge that CJ's background plays a part in his story and in our fans' love for him.

 

[Hodgey 15]

I love him for both reasons - for what he does on the field (dash, flair, athleticism, speed) and for his interesting background.

Of course we want player with such diverse backgrounds to succeed, you can't deny that his background doesn't add another interesting element to his story.

Note: I'm not agreeing with the post you quoted. But it's not wrong to acknowledge that CJ's background plays a part in his story and in our fans' love for him.

100% agree with what you say.

It's fantastic for the game and even a bigger achievement in some respects for these guys from other nationalities (Sudansese, Irish, U.S, Asian etc.) who have started from scratch and picked the game up and then have made AFL grade.

You just can't deny them for what they have done.

 

[H00t]

Defensively CJ has to have the widest circle of influence I’ve ever seen. Only Frost would come sort of close for us. The ball is anywhere near him and he’s able to get a fist on it or mark it.

CJ makes the ground so much smaller for our opposition. His offensive work is great to watch. But defensively he’s incredible.

The amount of times he has and will stop a certain goal/ mark is going to be very high.