Preview Round 1, 2022: St.Kilda v Collingwood - Marvel Stadium, Friday 18th March, 7:50PM AEDT

[stavro#4]

I haven't avoided th point at all.

I just gave one example from 2020 and one from 2021 where we could have taken a genuine mid. You can go back and read that post.

I think it would have made a lot of sense to use one of our first round selections over the last two years on a genuine mid because normally the elite mids of the comp are found in the top end of the draft not the bottom end.

The only genuine mid we considered was Hobbs.

NWM is huge bust potential. But if he makes it. We are talking star.

His disposal is phenomenal. His vision to place the ball is something special.

You take that over another Dunstan like mid.

 

[Premium]

Contested ball seems to equate to winning footy these days. Libba turning back into a star inside mid probably thrust the Dogs up the ladder faster than most other improvements. I think we've ignored that role for a long time. Wines, Oliver, Libba, Cunnington types don't need to rely on having a 36 year old ruckman being wheel out to compete.

We really have to hope that Bytel comes on because there isn't many others on the list that look close to ready. We were so obsessed with balanced mids that we have ignored the missing piece.

Yeah , you win the football more constantly than the other team you should win.

 

[Desperate saint]

Thats all well and good but you've avoided the point. Setting aside our 1st pick from 2020, who are these mids we should have drafted?

After watching last night the obvious one is Petracca -put him in our side and we are contending

 

[bird_man]

The only genuine mid we considered was Hobbs.

NWM is huge bust potential. But if he makes it. We are talking star.

His disposal is phenomenal. His vision to place the ball is something special.

You take that over another Dunstan like mid.

Agree on NWM. He could be a bust but could be something special. Fingers crossed for the latter.

Is still think a quality engine room is what is likely to win you a flag

I think it's easy just to scoff at every inside mid not blessed with pace as another Dunstan whilst avoiding the fact that some of the best mids in the comp fall under that category.

It was only 12 months ago people were saying Melbourne's midfield was too one paced and had too many similar mids.

Hobbs has a hell of a lot going for him and I will be very surprised if he doesn't have a very good AFL career and could be the steal if the draft.

 

[D2D3]

Thats all well and good but you've avoided the point. Setting aside our 1st pick from 2020, who are these mids we should have drafted?

Looking at only the first pick we took in the draft. 2013 (when our rebuild really started) and 2014 are pretty obvious and don’t need to be retread. 2015 gets a pass with Gresham. In 2016 we pulled Long out of nowhere when any of the next 4 picks directly after him would have suited us better. 2017 is Clark so gets a pass, many wanted Bonar over Coffield but the jury is still out on both. 2018, hey we got Max King which is awesome so again a pass but he still isn’t a midfielder, Bailey Smith is the obvious midfield option there although Max is probably the better pick. 2019 we had no early draft picks. 2020 we excluded as again it’s obvious. 2021 there was Hobbs and a slew of others, obviously we don’t know if any can play yet.

Reality is the only players who can play centre square midfield that we drafted with our first pick since our rebuild started are Gresham and Clark and they are arguably better elsewhere on the ground. And of our first choice midfielders the only one we actually drafted is Seb Ross back in 2011. Meanwhile Melbourne have drafted all of Petracca and Oliver (and Salem if we count him), Spargo and Sparrow, and WB drafted all of Bont, Dunkley and MacCrae (who was 2012 admittedly, but adding 2012 definitely doesn’t help us) and Smith with their first pick alone. And both of those teams got their entire first choice midfield set up from the draft, all be it with a little help from the father-son rule.

 

[Sun Ra]

After watching last night the obvious one is Petracca -put him in our side and we are contending

Can't stand Petracca as a person. Just too full of himself and quite shallow and incoherent on AFL360. He lacks the vocabulary and worldliness needed for that show - out of his depth up against intellectual heavyweights the likes of Robbo and Gerard. He's making Adam Treloar look like Albert Einstein. I'm glad we didn't draft him tbh. I don't like Oliver either. Would prefer someone like Ed Langdon if I could pick one of theirs.

 

[kernelT]

Thats all well and good but you've avoided the point. Setting aside our 1st pick from 2020, who are these mids we should have drafted?

I’ll have a crack…
Bont
Petracca
Then we can have a look at Naughton to go with Clark in 2017.

 

[kernelT]

After watching last night the obvious one is Petracca -put him in our side and we are contending

Was ridiculous again last night…
38, 16 contested @76
869 metres gained
9 clearances
13 score involvements
11 inside 50’s
8 marks
2 goals

You’d be happy if two mids combined for that output.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I haven't avoided th point at all.

I just gave one example from 2020 and one from 2021 where we could have taken a genuine mid. You can go back and read that post.

I think it would have made a lot of sense to use one of our first round selections over the last two years on a genuine mid because normally the elite mids of the comp are found in the top end of the draft not the bottom end.

Look l agree on principle but l firmly disagree on Hobbs coz l reckon he's a spud and whilst l wanted Poulter, p26 is hardly the criteria we're discussing.
The only possibility for any meaningful drafting of top mids was to not take King and/or Hill. So in fact, only Hill.

So it's only p12 in 2019 and l don't see much there. Robertson or Weightman l guess which illustrates we're not arguing over much at all.

I think it's far more to do with the poor exposure for Clark and Bytel and knowing we had Owens and Windy coming in.

We've acquired:
Gresh 2015
Steele 2016
Clark 2017
Bytel 2018
Jones, Byrnes 2019
Crouch, Snags 2020
Owens, Windy 2021

I'm willing to bet that all of these guys will present better than what they cost, so the drafting argument goes out the window. Clark and Bytel still TBD of course.

Like l said, it's one thing to complain about our drafting but if you actually look at what alternatives were available then there's really very little to moan about.

 

[Saintbloke]

The game tomorrow should be one where guys like Butler, Higgins and King should really put their hands up and get on the scoreboard against a weakened Collingwood. This will rely on our midfield getting clean use of the ball(a big ask). I'm a bit over the what ifs about who we did or didn't recruit back in Richos time, which was an era that saw the club go nowhere in so many ways. Time to to turn that around, though I think Ratts has the first 6 rounds to prove he can get the team up and about.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I’ll have a crack…
Bont
Petracca
Then we can have a look at Naughton to go with Clark in 2017.

2016 onwards was the discussion.

The failings of earlier administrations are beyond doubt, but the question is over what have we done about it.
The idea that we could have had Dusty, Bont and Trac just goes to prove we are StKilda.

 

[stavro#4]

Look l agree on principle but l firmly disagree on Hobbs coz l reckon he's a spud and whilst l wanted Poulter, p26 is hardly the criteria we're discussing.
The only possibility for any meaningful drafting of top mids was to not take King and/or Hill. So in fact, only Hill.

So it's only p12 in 2019 and l don't see much there. Robertson or Weightman l guess which illustrates we're not arguing over much at all.

I think it's far more to do with the poor exposure for Clark and Bytel and knowing we had Owens and Windy coming in.

We've acquired:
Gresh 2015
Steele 2016
Clark 2017
Bytel 2018
Jones, Byrnes 2019
Crouch, Snags 2020
Owens, Windy 2021

I'm willing to bet that all of these guys will present better than what they cost, so the drafting argument goes out the window. Clark and Bytel still TBD of course.

Like l said, it's one thing to complain about our drafting but if you actually look at what alternatives were available then there's really very little to moan about.

Worth noting. Had we not Brought in Hill. We probably take Serong. So that helps inside.

But then we are crying out for outside skill and speed.

So robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Looking at only the first pick we took in the draft. 2013 (when our rebuild really started) and 2014 are pretty obvious and don’t need to be retread. 2015 gets a pass with Gresham. In 2016 we pulled Long out of nowhere when any of the next 4 picks directly after him would have suited us better. 2017 is Clark so gets a pass, many wanted Bonar over Coffield but the jury is still out on both. 2018, hey we got Max King which is awesome so again a pass but he still isn’t a midfielder, Bailey Smith is the obvious midfield option there although Max is probably the better pick. 2019 we had no early draft picks. 2020 we excluded as again it’s obvious. 2021 there was Hobbs and a slew of others, obviously we don’t know if any can play yet.

Reality is the only players who can play centre square midfield that we drafted with our first pick since our rebuild started are Gresham and Clark and they are arguably better elsewhere on the ground. And of our first choice midfielders the only one we actually drafted is Seb Ross back in 2011. Meanwhile Melbourne have drafted all of Petracca and Oliver (and Salem if we count him), Spargo and Sparrow, and WB drafted all of Bont, Dunkley and MacCrae (who was 2012 admittedly, but adding 2012 definitely doesn’t help us) and Smith with their first pick alone. And both of those teams got their entire first choice midfield set up from the draft, all be it with a little help from the father-son rule.

I'd argue that our current rebuild started when Lethers arrived and that anyone holding on to the years prior needs to get over it asap.

 

[Sun Ra]

2016 onwards was the discussion.

The failings of earlier administrations are beyond doubt, but the question is over what have we done about it.
The idea that we could have had Dusty, Bont and Trac just goes to prove we are StKilda.

Every team has their horror draft stuff-up stories - the Tigers have heaps of them. We need to get over it and not go all Dr Hindsight about it.

 

[kernelT]

I'd argue that our current rebuild started when Lethers arrived and that anyone holding on to the years prior needs to get over it asap.

I'm still foaming about Michael Frost so… I'm never getting over it scrap.

 

[Sun Ra]

Every team has their horror draft stuff-up stories - the Tigers have heaps of them. We need to get over it and not go all Dr Hindsight about it.

As I have said, I'm happy we didn't draft Petracca and/or Oliver. I don't care how good they are. No dickhead policy.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Worth noting. Had we not Brought in Hill. We probably take Serong. So that helps inside.

But then we are crying out for outside skill and speed.

So robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Actually l doubt that. The trade for 12, 18 was ready to go and discussions with Howard and Jones were matured so that original pick 6 was never ever ever going to be spent at the draft.
Pick 10, eventually 12 is the best anyone can legitimately claim.

 

[bird_man]

Look l agree on principle but l firmly disagree on Hobbs coz l reckon he's a spud and whilst l wanted Poulter, p26 is hardly the criteria we're discussing.
The only possibility for any meaningful drafting of top mids was to not take King and/or Hill. So in fact, only Hill.

So it's only p12 in 2019 and l don't see much there. Robertson or Weightman l guess which illustrates we're not arguing over much at all.

I think it's far more to do with the poor exposure for Clark and Bytel and knowing we had Owens and Windy coming in.

We've acquired:
Gresh 2015
Steele 2016
Clark 2017
Bytel 2018
Jones, Byrnes 2019
Crouch, Snags 2020
Owens, Windy 2021

I'm willing to bet that all of these guys will present better than what they cost, so the drafting argument goes out the window. Clark and Bytel still TBD of course.

Like l said, it's one thing to complain about our drafting but if you actually look at what alternatives were available then there's really very little to moan about.

Hobbs is a spud is a massive call. I guess we will just have to see how that pans out.

Not sure pick 26 is hardly the criteria we are discussing? There are a lot quality mids running around that were taken early in the 2nd round.

Anyway, you disagree with my opinion that we should have used one first rounder on a mid in the last 2 drafts but at the same time say you wanted Poulter so I'm not sure it's worth going round and round.

 

[stavro#4]

Actually l doubt that. The trade for 12, 18 was ready to go and discussions with Howard and Jones were matured so that original pick 6 was never ever ever going to be spent at the draft.
Pick 10, eventually 12 is the best anyone can legitimately claim.

Sorry you are right. In which case, there is absolutely **** all I’d want aside from Pickett maybe Weightman. But they are small forwards.

8. Fremantle: Caleb Serong (midfielder/forward)

9. Fremantle: Liam Henry (midfielder/forward)

10. GWS: Tom Green (midfielder)

11. Gold Coast: Sam Flanders (midfielder/forward)

12. Melbourne: Kysaiah Pickett (midfielder/forward)

13. Hawthorn: Will Day (defender)

14. Port Adelaide: Miles Bergman (midfielder/forward)

15. Western Bulldogs: Cody Weightman (forward)

16. Geelong: Cooper Stephens (midfielder)

17. Carlton: Brodie Kemp (midfielder/forward)

18. Port Adelaide: Mitchell Georgiades (key forward)

 

[bird_man]

Actually l doubt that. The trade for 12, 18 was ready to go and discussions with Howard and Jones were matured so that original pick 6 was never ever ever going to be spent at the draft.
Pick 10, eventually 12 is the best anyone can legitimately claim.

I highly doubt we would have traded away pick 6 just to get Howard if Hill wasn't in the picture.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Sorry you are right. In which case, there is absolutely fu** all I’d want aside from Pickett maybe Weightman. But they are small forwards.

8. Fremantle: Caleb Serong (midfielder/forward)

9. Fremantle: Liam Henry (midfielder/forward)

10. GWS: Tom Green (midfielder)

11. Gold Coast: Sam Flanders (midfielder/forward)

12. Melbourne: Kysaiah Pickett (midfielder/forward)

13. Hawthorn: Will Day (defender)

14. Port Adelaide: Miles Bergman (midfielder/forward)

15. Western Bulldogs: Cody Weightman (forward)

16. Geelong: Cooper Stephens (midfielder)

17. Carlton: Brodie Kemp (midfielder/forward)

18. Port Adelaide: Mitchell Georgiades (key forward)

And that's my whole point.
For the last 5 years the sum of failures on "premium" mids equates to Poulter and Hobbs.
Stacked against Clark, Coff, King, Bytel, Hill, Byrnes, Snags, NWM, Owens, Windy aaaand Allison.
Yeah, we've been shithouse...

 

[ScrappyDo]

I highly doubt we would have traded away pick 6 just to get Howard if Hill wasn't in the picture.

I agree and never suggested such.

 

[bird_man]

And that's my whole point.
For the last 5 years the sum of failures on "premium" mids equates to Poulter and Hobbs.
Stacked against Clark, Coff, King, Bytel, Hill, Byrnes, Snags, NWM, Owens, Windy aaaand Allison.
Yeah, we've been shithouse...

Not one person has said we've been shit house. You are twisting the whole argument...

 

[The Punter]

The four picks after Ben Long

22

Ben Long

Age

27

Ht

186cm

Wt

81kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.9

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

4.7

3star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.7

4star

MG

166.8

3star

D

12.8

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

6.2

4star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.3

3star

MG

129.0

2star

D

13.4

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

3.2

5star

MG

223.0

4star

were Brendan Parfitt (Geelong "coach-em-up job), Zac Fisher

16

Zac Fisher

Age

26

Ht

175cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.2

4star

K

8.3

3star

HB

7.9

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.0

5star

MG

384.0

5star

D

17.0

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.0

3star

T

0.0

1star

MG

384.0

5star

D

12.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

1.2

2star

T

3.0

5star

(small forward who doesn't kick goals), Patrick Lipinski

1

Patrick Lipinski

Age

26

Ht

190cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

7.8

3star

HB

10.2

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.8

4star

CL

1.5

4star

D

18.3

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

11.3

5star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.7

4star

CL

1.3

4star

D

15.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

8.6

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.4

4star

CL

1.2

4star

(at second club), and Shai Bolton

29

Shai Bolton

Age

25

Ht

176cm

Wt

77kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.3

3star

K

6.9

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

12.7

3star

K

9.2

4star

HB

3.5

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.7

4star

CL

1.8

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.6

4star

M

2.0

3star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.0

1star

, who is the one everyone raises, but would absolutely not have flourished at St Kilda. Bolton needed to be in a good situation like Richmond became.

The only player between Long and Battle who would have been a better fit IMO was Sean Darcy

4

Sean Darcy

Age

26

Ht

203cm

Wt

111kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

3.4

1star

HB

6.6

4star

CL

2.4

4star

HO

28.8

5star

D

6.8

1star

K

2.0

1star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

1.8

4star

HO

20.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

6.8

5star

CL

2.6

5star

HO

32.0

5star

, but 2016 was the year we picked Rowan Marshall

19

Rowan Marshall

Age

28

Ht

201cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.4

4star

K

8.8

3star

HB

6.6

4star

CL

3.4

5star

HO

20.2

5star

D

12.9

3star

K

9.3

4star

HB

3.6

2star

CL

2.8

4star

HO

17.8

5star

D

10.6

3star

K

5.8

3star

HB

4.8

4star

CL

1.0

3star

HO

7.8

5star

in the rookie draft.

 

[D2D3]

I'd argue that our current rebuild started when Lethers arrived and that anyone holding on to the years prior needs to get over it asap.

Fair, but all the years leading up to it still had an effect on what our current side is. And to my mind we still have issues in the centre that we are yet to address. Thankfully we will have more draft picks in the next 2 years than I feared.