Yeah, I didn't see the clearances as the problem, more directly after the clearances and in general play contested ball. Why are people talking about Cameron as an issue? He was solid against a very good opponent.
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Review Round 16 = Gold Coast 101-90 Collingwood
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Yeah, I didn't see the clearances as the problem, more directly after the clearances and in general play contested ball. Why are people talking about Cameron as an issue? He was solid against a very good opponent.
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I know right. We won the hit outs..yet apparently Cameron was monstered ??
Kirby
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You are talking about the Cox who played well at the tail end of last year (as a ruckman) and not the Cox who has played this year.
Last night was a game where we had stuff all balls kicked down the line. I suspect he would have been invisible as a forward and he wouldn’t have got the mark on the lead that Kreugs got for our last goal. There’s certainly no way we would have got Jordy’s first goal without Kreug’s tackle.
So, I think we can only attempt to measure his loss as a ruckman as against our loss with him playing forward.
jmac70
On the porch
Witts is part of a midfield group who had our measure.
Cox wouldn’t have changed that.
What has saved us in a lot of our wins from the jaws of defeat, has been the opposition’s inability to kick a goal in the last 2 minutes when it mattered with many near misses. GC kicked 2 goals – it was only a matter of time before a team did this
Naicos was simply… brilliant for all 4 quarters – 32 disposals, 5 clearances, 5I50’s, 2 goals, 9 SI’s & 691 MG and to a lesser extent JDG & Jaicos, otherwise we looked, slow, inept & lacked pressure
Watching it on TV I was sure the Pies were slaughtered in centres clearances due to so many of GC’s midfield roaming out of the centre at will with ball in hand. Their midfield of Flanders, Anderson, Miller, Rowell & Witts moved the ball with pace, precision & effectiveness. They appeared to always take the first option which made them look quicker.
Anderson 39 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 I50’s, 8 SI’s
Flanders 33 disposals, 6 clearances, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 1 goal
Miller 31 disposals, 4 clearances, 5 I50’s, 9 SI’s, 2 goals
Ainsworth 28 disposals, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 2 goals
Witts, 19 disposals, 3 clearances, 6 I50’s, 32 HO’s, 7 SI’s
Yet we won clearances & stoppages. Clearly we didn’t do much with it
However what didn’t lie is has happened in nearly every game this year, is the opposition’s ability to deny our midfield the ball for long chunks of time in quarters, and our inability to reset or change during a quarter, resulting in a run on of goals
GCS had +18 more I50’s. It felt at times that the ball lived there
The lack of pressure from our midfield allowed the GC HB’s, mid’s & HF’s to bring the ball in at will creating both real & perceived pressure. When this occurs our zone defence makes our backs look like fools. I counted more than 5 times where our defenders could not impact a contest because they were guarding space between two opponents, because the lack of pressure upfield provided too many options. Having said that, our defence was poor. All of them appear down on form. Howe was unaccountable before he was moved forward. Frampton lacked any physicality & failed to impact the contest. Ben King had 4 marks (all uncontested) & kicked 4 goals. Moore was less
We also played into GCS hands by flooding the backline. Time and time again we had so many players in D50 that we could not transition the ball out of defence, as we had no one to kick to, resulting in repeat I50’s for GCS
Unfortunately we had too many players having poor nights. Crisp was fumbling all night. He was let-down further by his poor disposal (7 clangers/ 8 direct turnovers). Sullivan (33%), Hill (50%), McCreey (44%), Sidey (55%) & Pendles (55%) were also poor with ball in hand
Cameron was good around the ground for much of the night. I remain frustrated by his unwillingness to jump at ball ups, take his eye off the ball & attempt to wrestle for a tap. I am livid by his lack of peripheral vision in that every game he hack kicks out of a contest (when he has options around him) which constantly results in a turnover & often leads to goals as it did last night. This stopped all of our momentum when we had just hit the front. We did not recover
The ball continued to come out of our forward line too easily. We missed Schultz’s forward pressure & tackling last night. We have missed Mason Cox in every game since his injury. His first hands to the ball in ruck & the structure and marks he provides coming out of defence. We need him back ASAP
I think that these types of games will continue. We do not have the personnel to play the game plan 100% of the time. But our game plan & belief is such that we are never out of the game. Fly & his team constantly find new ways for us to score goals & compete.
However, we need more personnel to plug gaps that our list does not have. We need pace in our midfield. We also need a beast like Rowell. We need a ruck that can jump. We need a big KPD who can mix it physically & lock-down a forward
Naicos was simply… brilliant for all 4 quarters – 32 disposals, 5 clearances, 5I50’s, 2 goals, 9 SI’s & 691 MG and to a lesser extent JDG & Jaicos, otherwise we looked, slow, inept & lacked pressure
Watching it on TV I was sure the Pies were slaughtered in centres clearances due to so many of GC’s midfield roaming out of the centre at will with ball in hand. Their midfield of Flanders, Anderson, Miller, Rowell & Witts moved the ball with pace, precision & effectiveness. They appeared to always take the first option which made them look quicker.
Anderson 39 disposals, 6 clearances, 4 I50’s, 8 SI’s
Flanders 33 disposals, 6 clearances, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 1 goal
Miller 31 disposals, 4 clearances, 5 I50’s, 9 SI’s, 2 goals
Ainsworth 28 disposals, 5 I50’s, 8 SI’s, 2 goals
Witts, 19 disposals, 3 clearances, 6 I50’s, 32 HO’s, 7 SI’s
Yet we won clearances & stoppages. Clearly we didn’t do much with it
However what didn’t lie is has happened in nearly every game this year, is the opposition’s ability to deny our midfield the ball for long chunks of time in quarters, and our inability to reset or change during a quarter, resulting in a run on of goals
GCS had +18 more I50’s. It felt at times that the ball lived there
The lack of pressure from our midfield allowed the GC HB’s, mid’s & HF’s to bring the ball in at will creating both real & perceived pressure. When this occurs our zone defence makes our backs look like fools. I counted more than 5 times where our defenders could not impact a contest because they were guarding space between two opponents, because the lack of pressure upfield provided too many options. Having said that, our defence was poor. All of them appear down on form. Howe was unaccountable before he was moved forward. Frampton lacked any physicality & failed to impact the contest. Ben King had 4 marks (all uncontested) & kicked 4 goals. Moore was less
We also played into GCS hands by flooding the backline. Time and time again we had so many players in D50 that we could not transition the ball out of defence, as we had no one to kick to, resulting in repeat I50’s for GCS
Unfortunately we had too many players having poor nights. Crisp was fumbling all night. He was let-down further by his poor disposal (7 clangers/ 8 direct turnovers). Sullivan (33%), Hill (50%), McCreey (44%), Sidey (55%) & Pendles (55%) were also poor with ball in hand
Cameron was good around the ground for much of the night. I remain frustrated by his unwillingness to jump at ball ups, take his eye off the ball & attempt to wrestle for a tap. I am livid by his lack of peripheral vision in that every game he hack kicks out of a contest (when he has options around him) which constantly results in a turnover & often leads to goals as it did last night. This stopped all of our momentum when we had just hit the front. We did not recover
The ball continued to come out of our forward line too easily. We missed Schultz’s forward pressure & tackling last night. We have missed Mason Cox in every game since his injury. His first hands to the ball in ruck & the structure and marks he provides coming out of defence. We need him back ASAP
I think that these types of games will continue. We do not have the personnel to play the game plan 100% of the time. But our game plan & belief is such that we are never out of the game. Fly & his team constantly find new ways for us to score goals & compete.
However, we need more personnel to plug gaps that our list does not have. We need pace in our midfield. We also need a beast like Rowell. We need a ruck that can jump. We need a big KPD who can mix it physically & lock-down a forward
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Fly said we did alright in the contest ( which is shown in the stats) but lost the game on the outside of that.
For most of the game we couldn’t stop their transition.
sr36
TheBrownDog
It's pretty simple. We defend aggressively starting with gang tackling in the midfield. But if we miss a tackle, they can get ahead of the pack and defenders roll up to stop it, leaving us really exposed inside 50. Like any system, ours has weaknesses that can be exploited if the opposition is good enough or more commonly when we're a bit flat, missing tackles and thus not able to maintain pressure.
Moore's going well defensively, but teams are putting a lot of work into stoppiing him intercept mark with a fair bit of scgragging - so he's not dominating the air as much as we're used to.
Billy's Billy - a bit of a battler whose good with predictable entries to a contest, but doesn't react as quickly as he needs to with other entries.
We were still in holiday mode in the first half, which happens to heaps of teams straight after the bye. I thought we were good in the second half, but they got lucky in the third quarter.
sr36
TheBrownDog
In the first half it was the post stoppage stuff. They got numbers in front and behind the stoppage so our clearances went nowhere and they were able to chain it forward for really dangerous entries.
jathanas
Premium Platinum
I agree with the Executive GM of Europe.
This was a down team performance, as evident by the i50 differential. GC delivered the ball into their forward line at will.
Collingwood did not bring their pressure game. The defence looking under siege is a symptom of this, not a cause.
The way the Pies got as close as they did in the end is "true-to-brand". You can never write them off.
Onwards and upwards.
This was a down team performance, as evident by the i50 differential. GC delivered the ball into their forward line at will.
Collingwood did not bring their pressure game. The defence looking under siege is a symptom of this, not a cause.
The way the Pies got as close as they did in the end is "true-to-brand". You can never write them off.
Onwards and upwards.
Do_Beta_Rapport
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Keen to see if Ned Long can fit into the mix, we desperately need a big body in there to create some space.
jmac70
On the porch
jmac70
On the porch
That would be good. Definitely short of a stoppage player.
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Gaspard
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This post more or less covers it. The game looked so much like the first three of the year with a comeback added. Crisp, as in those games was fumbly and unable to break through. He has had games like this throughout his career, when you question his ability. The other couple of hundred should answer that question.
The last few minutes seemed to contain a bit of complacency. The feeling on the field seemed to be "we've got them like we always do".
I tend to agree with the posters who say that winning this would not have been good for the team. It would have been undeserved.
I agree with those who think we were outcoached. The occasional blast out of the backline into a vacant forward area for a goal was overmatched by their relentless running forward to provide a handball option.
I don't accept the criticism of Cameron's late dump kick. He's a ruckman and he does it all the time. His more measured kicks when the pressure is less are a bonus.
This loss doesn't end the season, but is does provide a reality check. We are not the team of last year, and a lot will have to be fixed, particularly in the ball attack sphere, for us to go very far.
Richards is the glowing candle of promise in the gloom, but he is not the messiah.
doesnt look that way ... . the game was lost because there was zero pressure from Pies for 70% of the game
Centre clearances : Suns 12 Pies 11
Cox takes a lot of CBAs. Obviously the number CBAs vary each week but he'd have to be averaging 25-30% based of the data below in the first screenshot.
The numbers in the second screenshot show that his RC% (Ruck contest %) would be averaging well over 25% of all ruck contests in matches.
Anecdotally, I feel that with Coxy at CBAs we have more clear ruck wins leading to clean clearances, AND less clear ruck losses with clean clearances against, but that's just my eye test.
As an aside, the data comes from the site below, brilliant for fantasy footy or for pointless arguments/discussions, both of which I'm partial to.
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76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
The game is played at such a frenetic pace that it’s very rare that players have the time and space to pause to assess where all the chess pieces are on the board before picking the correct option. There is some reliance on targets being in place - especially when exiting out of the D50.
You or I or the rest of us have no idea whether these examples were Markov’s fault for where he directed the ball, or whether it was the fault or somebody downfield not doing / being where they should.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
It’s about risk / reward. We weren’t that far off pulling those kicks off, and if the oval ball had bounced a different way we’d be bathing into the afterglow of the tactical genius of us kicking the ball through the middle.
One thing I’m surprised about it those instances is that players don’t bring out the torpedo. The ball goes further and is harder to mark - which is a good thing when you have players like Bobby Hill and Nick Daicos on the end of it.
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As usual.
Nick Daicos (and DeGoey) vs Rowell, Anderson, Miller, Flanders.
Got behind by 34 pts, we hit the lead with 3 minutes to go and they kicked 2 goals. Our defence didn’t hold up in the last because Howe had to go forward, Maynard was off with a corkie and Noble off with a concussion protocol.
Nick Daicos (and DeGoey) vs Rowell, Anderson, Miller, Flanders.
Got behind by 34 pts, we hit the lead with 3 minutes to go and they kicked 2 goals. Our defence didn’t hold up in the last because Howe had to go forward, Maynard was off with a corkie and Noble off with a concussion protocol.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
This is true.
Robinson Crusoe is a fictional character in an 18th century novel.
TradeDraft by contrast is a passionate, loveable Collingwood supporter who is real in the 21st century.
The combination of DC and Cox would have curbed the influence of Witts at stoppage and around the ground.
The impetus to their midfield group logically would have been blunted.
With Krueger backing up DC this wasn’t possible.
Also DC could have played back or Fwd while Cox gave a strong contest in the Ruck.
I doubt we go with one Ruck next time against GCS.
FatherTime
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I said nothing about facing 2 ruck combos, that Cox is only needed when Cameron is confronting an exceptionally tall ruck likely to beat him.
jmac70
On the porch
Just be thankful we have Nick.
Without him we loose that game by ten goals, even with Cox.
This is a quote from your posts - if you’d used Ruckman ie singular, then it would have been less ambiguous.
So I missed your point.
“And Cox is really only best 22 against teams with abnormally tall rucks who will trouble Cameron.”
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