Review Round 2, 2022 - Essendon vs. Brisbane Lions

[Tom14]

First game that comes to mind is the one against Port where I thought he looked pretty dominant taking pack marks and kicking goals.
In my opinion he brings the ball to ground better than any of our other forwards, he's mobile and committed enough to pressure once the ball hits the ground and he's generally along with Daniher always available as a bail out kick for the defenders. Add that to the positives you've mentioned and I see a guy that should not only should be persisted with but is an important part of the team and structure until someone is good enough to replace him which I can't see happening for a long while.
He has had a poor start to the season but I'm comfortable saying that this is not his normal output and I'd expect it to improve quite dramatically going forward.

Just in terms of dirty work, McStay averaged more tackles per game than basically any key forward or third tall who didn't also play substantial ruck minutes. He laid more tackles per game than Mitch Robbo last year.

 

[martinson]

He kicked 16 in the last 6 HA games of 2021 after Hippy went out and averaged 3 contested marks per game as well. The 2.66 goals per game in that period would have been the fourth best average goals per game of any player last year, behind McKay, Buddy and Walker. Clearly, its ridiculous to extrapolate a 6 game period and make that comparison, but the key point is that he massively stepped up when we lost Hippy. That he had that run of form when Hippy was out shows his capabilities, particularly given that even with Eric out, he's still at best the third option in the forward line. When Hippy is back, he's even further down the pecking order.

We desperately missed him in both finals - we probably had no shot without him against the dees anyway, but their tall backs ran riot in that game and we were left with the bomb it to charlie and hope the defender drops it offense, which is not how we want to play. We'd absolutely have beaten the dogs with him in there and anyone who suggests that Payne could have done the job he did is joking.

What I see right now is him being fumbly and dropping some marks, and clearly has not had the best couple of games. But he was good in the practice match and very damaging in the AAMI game against the dogs, so I expect he'll come good soon.

I can agree with all that Tom .

He just frustrates me that he's not as imposing for periods of games as I would expect of someone of his experience and the abilities he has shown on occasions.

I'm happy enough with him as 3rd banana if he goes in harder ,sticks some tackles , and genuinely puts pressure on when the ball hits the ground that others seem to see but I don't most of the time. It's been particularly prevalent the last 2 weeks but the last 2 weeks aren't the basis of my thoughts.

Anyway it's been done to death of recent years. I'm still hoping this will be his year so just venting and hoping someone will get a rocket up him and lift his output.

 

[martinson]

Just in terms of dirty work, McStay averaged more tackles per game than basically any key forward or third tall who didn't also play substantial ruck minutes. He laid more tackles per game than Mitch Robbo last year.

Hmmm. It's the ones he doesn't stick properly or just goes half pie when he doesn't think he'll get there that frustrate me.

Grab a tape of any game and watch closely.

 

[Tom14]

Been getting the vibe this week that Matthew Lloyd was not a happy little Vegemite after this game.

It started with his appearance on sports day radio - said that Carlton had been more impressive than us this season (I can understand this opinion), but mainly complained that Harris looked lazy and kept saying Darcy fort

32

Darcy Fort

Age

31

Ht

204cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.6

2star

K

5.8

2star

HB

2.9

3star

M

1.9

2star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.2

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

3.2

2star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.8

3star

G

0.2

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

5.4

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

1.2

4star

was bad and a reason we aren’t real contenders. No discussion of the fact that Darcy will make way for Hippy in another couple of months.

Tonight in the first segment of footy classified - discussion on Zorks to the backline that featured a complaint that he got coaches votes. Brought out the old ‘if they were against Melbourne, they’d have been in trouble.’

 

[WheildonTheAxe]

Been getting the vibe this week that Matthew Lloyd was not a happy little Vegemite after this game.

It started with his appearance on sports day radio - said that Carlton had been more impressive than us this season (I can understand this opinion), but mainly complained that Harris looked lazy and kept saying Darcy fort was bad and a reason we aren’t real contenders. No discussion of the fact that Darcy will make way for Hippy in another couple of months.

Tonight in the first segment of footy classified - discussion on Zorks to the backline that featured a complaint that he got coaches votes. Brought out the old ‘if they were against Melbourne, they’d have been in trouble.’

Matthew Lloyd is a dingus.

 

[Lazza16]

I've had decades of feeling miserable about how my footy team played.

I'm stoked that we've won our first two games without playing at where I believe we're capable.

Really enjoying that feeling tonight and looking forward to playing North next week.

The game itself today I don't really care. But happy to discuss it.

I haven't always felt miserable about our teams performance even when losing.

 

[Gadzorks]

Consistency. Upside. Downside. Brilliant. Fumbler.

If you want the same thing every time from an athlete become a swimming, running, or high jump, or darts fan. Cause you are never going to get it in a game of AFL. It's managed chaos.

AFL is the hardest game in the world to play. The skill set we blithely accept as normal is massive - field kick, set kick, handball, running endurance, running sprints, catch uncontested, catch contested, catch while jumping, catch while falling to the ground, agility, picking an oval object from the ground while running ... Getting physically pummeled, trackling, performing all these skills while knowing someone is trying to smash you into the ground ... and the list goes on.

 

[Scubaveg]

Matthew Lloyd is a dingus.

What’s a dingus?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[LongLion]

What’s a dingus?


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Matthew Lloyd?

 

[Warwick]

AFL is the hardest game in the world to play. The skill set we blithely accept as normal is massive - field kick, set kick, handball, running endurance, running sprints, catch uncontested, catch contested, catch while jumping, catch while falling to the ground, agility, picking an oval object from the ground while running ... Getting physically pummeled, trackling, performing all these skills while knowing someone is trying to smash you into the ground ... and the list goes on.

Agree.

You’ve just described the role of about 25 different American Football positions.

 

[FLVanLandingham]

its an interesting discussion. I would counter that the skill threshold is lower (due to both our lower population/playing size, and the spread of skills meaning less perfection in them separately). So it is hard to play, but does it take more skill?

sports like basketball or soccer the skill threshold to get to the top level is supremely high. sure they focus on a smaller size of skills to some degree, but its an interesting comparison.


and.. uh.. those skills were on display during this match between us and the Essendon Football Club....

 

[irel]

Consistency. Upside. Downside. Brilliant. Fumbler.

If you want the same thing every time from an athlete become a swimming, running, or high jump, or darts fan. Cause you are never going to get it in a game of AFL. It's managed chaos.

AFL is the hardest game in the world to play. The skill set we blithely accept as normal is massive - field kick, set kick, handball, running endurance, running sprints, catch uncontested, catch contested, catch while jumping, catch while falling to the ground, agility, picking an oval object from the ground while running ... Getting physically pummeled, trackling, performing all these skills while knowing someone is trying to smash you into the ground ... and the list goes on.

Some of the listed skills in your post are fast being consigned to history, unfortunately, as bruise free football is slowly merging into a modern AFL game. We have not seen a hard physical contest yet this season. We may at some point but it is generally an oddity rather than part of the AFL DNA.

 

[Gadzorks]

Agree.

You’ve just described the role of about 25 different American Football positions.

Made me jump to baseball - that's perfect repeated skill in every position.

Or stand outs, like buddy, could easily have chosen a single skill sport and got to international level. They are that good an athlete.

Buddy - high jump.

Even a player with a noted single strength. Harry sharp would have to have had a good crack at running (1500-3k?).

Not saying they would have win Olympic medals, just could have competed internationally representing Australia.

We could you this into a game. Who can you nominate for what?

Jamie Charmane - swimming obviously.

 

[briztoon]

its an interesting discussion. I would counter that the skill threshold is lower (due to both our lower population/playing size, and the spread of skills meaning less perfection in them separately). So it is hard to play, but does it take more skill?

sports like basketball or soccer the skill threshold to get to the top level is supremely high. sure they focus on a smaller size of skills to some degree, but its an interesting comparison.


and.. uh.. those skills were on display during this match between us and the Essendon Football Club....

If AFL was a world sport such as football or basketball, how many Australians would make the top league?

In my life time, Andrew Gaze was the best Australian basketballer, dominated the NBL, FIBA and the Olympics, but could barely crack the NBA (admittedly he would have fared much better in today’s perimeter oriented NBA, than the late 80’s and 90’s when he was playing).

Dangerfield, Dusty, Petracca might be bench or reserve players.

There’s a LOT of athletically gifted 6’6” - 6’7” basketball players in the NBA and Europe, more athletic than the King twins, that would make great tall forwards or defenders.

There’s a lot of 6’8” - 6’9” athletic players similar to Ben Simmons who could play ruck.

If similar money was on offer.

 

[briztoon]

Made me jump to baseball - that's perfect repeated skill in every position.

Or stand outs, like buddy, could easily have chosen a single skill sport and got to international level. They are that good an athlete.

Buddy - high jump.

Even a player with a noted single strength. Harry sharp would have to have had a good crack at running (1500-3k?).

Not saying they would have win Olympic medals, just could have competed internationally representing Australia.

We could you this into a game. Who can you nominate for what?

Jamie Charmane - swimming obviously.

Sharp’s best 2k time is about ~30 seconds slower than the AUS U18 record from memory.

He’s good, but I’m not sure he was at national level.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Made me jump to baseball - that's perfect repeated skill in every position.

Or stand outs, like buddy, could easily have chosen a single skill sport and got to international level. They are that good an athlete.

Buddy - high jump.

Even a player with a noted single strength. Harry sharp would have to have had a good crack at running (1500-3k?).

Not saying they would have win Olympic medals, just could have competed internationally representing Australia.

We could you this into a game. Who can you nominate for what?

Jamie Charmane - swimming obviously.

I could see Zorks on the parallel bars or the pommel horse he'd be a natural, not so much high jump.

 

[martinson]

Those who laud AFL players tend to overrate the skill level required. Things have changed in the last 30 years but there was a time not that long ago where endeavour, fitness and hardness were enough to win a place if you were adequate at the basic skills required. We still have a lot of role players who don't need to be extraordinarily skilful.

It's an unusual sport where areobic and athletic capacities now play a predominant role in the selection process but the aerobic and athletic capacities of those people don't need to be anywhere near that of those in international sports where it is a prerequisite ingredient.

 

[Gadzorks]

Sharp’s best 2k time is about ~30 seconds slower than the AUS U18 record from memory.

He’s good, but I’m not sure he was at national level.

That's a big gap, but you are talking about a difference between runners who focus obsessively on their event, and a kid whose focus was diluted by AFL.

Its interesting to wonder what would happen if he stopped AFL and went into a dedicated running program. He certainly has the natural talent to work with.

Obviously, I don't want him to change.

 

[irel]

If AFL was a world sport such as football or basketball, how many Australians would make the top league?

In my life time, Andrew Gaze was the best Australian basketballer, dominated the NBL, FIBA and the Olympics, but could barely crack the NBA (admittedly he would have fared much better in today’s perimeter oriented NBA, than the late 80’s and 90’s when he was playing).

Dangerfield, Dusty, Petracca might be bench or reserve players.

There’s a LOT of athletically gifted 6’6” - 6’7” basketball players in the NBA and Europe, more athletic than the King twins, that would make great tall forwards or defenders.

There’s a lot of 6’8” - 6’9” athletic players similar to Ben Simmons who could play ruck.

If similar money was on offer.

(I can’t think of another sport) AFL maybe the only sport where you can be drafted to the top tier competition without the technical skills for the game already embedded. Clubs spend millions trying to up-skill technical skills to 18, 19 year old draftees. IMO if you are drafted to an AFL club having the technical abilities should be a given.

 

[briztoon]

(I can’t think of another sport) AFL maybe the only sport where you can be drafted to the top tier competition without the technical skills for the game already embedded. Clubs spend millions trying to up-skill technical skills to 18, 19 year old draftees. IMO if you are drafted to an AFL club having the technical abilities should be a given.

Happens a lot in the NBA as well.

 

[Gadzorks]

(I can’t think of another sport) AFL maybe the only sport where you can be drafted to the top tier competition without the technical skills for the game already embedded. Clubs spend millions trying to up-skill technical skills to 18, 19 year old draftees. IMO if you are drafted to an AFL club having the technical abilities should be a given.

How many of those are drafting 17yo? I figure if you raise draft age, young draftees would have physical maturity and extra years to develop skills.

I think the recent trend to mature age players is showing that it does work.

The other side of that you might lose potential players who move on with jobs and other life stuff.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Sharp’s best 2k time is about ~30 seconds slower than the AUS U18 record from memory.

He’s good, but I’m not sure he was at national level.

Not that far off though for a guy who has been prioritising footy in recent years. His record time for 2,000m at the draft was just 20 secs off the U20 Oceania record. And as I seem to recall reading he had pretty much converted to a steeplechaser in the latter part of his athletic career.

 

[briztoon]

I’ll add, in both spots many who are very skilled don’t get drafted every year, because they are deemed to slow, short and/or unathletic.