Game Day Round 2, 2023 - Brisbane Lions vs. Melbourne

[Section 5]

They should get 30k plus tonight. There’s a huge game just down the road, who like some of us would like to be at too (thanks AFL for the **** schedule), so there will be a few who have had to choose between the two.

I’d still be disappointed with anything less than 30k, although with the way we played last week and the Broncos/Phins game on it wouldn’t totally shock me.

It was interesting that the Lions sent a email yesterday about forwarding or handing back tickets for tonight.
They have done this before but not a R2 game to my recollection.
The aim of course is to keep the crowd numbers up.

 

[Saucery]

Before i'd change the players - i think a complete overhaul (keeing the same players) of the coaches would be my go. I mean the turnaround from McCrae w/o adding alot or even Hardwick (i know i said all coaches, but they removed everyone bar him) and even Longmire at Freo a year or 2 ago s been fantastic to watch and a real example of whats possible- i think in my limited understanding is that players are to comfortable and maybe a new fresh voice could change it - many examples in other world sports of successful sides unable to reach the top getting new coaches or managers and then winning. Beofre you start dismantling this team i think you have to try with new coaches and then if that person cant do anything in 2 years or it looks less likely, then move on players - but hopefully in a way like the Swans do it w/o really bottoming out.

Yes both Geelong with Bomber and Richmond with Hardwick made effective internal reviews and restructured the clubs to support them find the holy land. I was very proud of the club keeping our assistants during Covid but now I just feel like maybe the messaging is getting stale as we are too much of a know quantity.

 

[p4p1]

Why is everyone so pessimistic? (note: I missed the game last week but were we really that bad? port at home is a tough job and perhaps they are very good this year)

We were really that bad mate. For myself and I assume others, it wasn't that we lost or even that it was a bad loss, it was that the exact same thing happened as every other time we have been belted. The midfield got smashed in centre clearances and didn't work hard enough defensively. The forwards were lazy and did next to nothing. Rich kept kicking out long to a contest that we consistently lost and we had defenders (not just rich) who didn't manage to get a tackle in a game where the ball spent plenty of time in their zone.

 

[Squizz89]

It was interesting that the Lions sent a email yesterday about forwarding or handing back tickets for tonight.
They have done this before but not a R2 game to my recollection.
The aim of course is to keep the crowd numbers up.

Yeah I’m not sure they’d be overly happy with the AFL and the scheduling of this one. Will keep crowd numbers down and a lot of people will have one eye on what’s happening down the road anyway.

They’re pretty arrogant at HQ and what they think of other codes but I must admit tonight’s scheduling was sheer stupidity on their part.

 

[scoman]

We were really that bad mate. For myself and I assume others, it wasn't that we lost or even that it was a bad loss, it was that the exact same thing happened as every other time we have been belted. The midfield got smashed in centre clearances and didn't work hard enough defensively. The forwards were lazy and did next to nothing. Rich kept kicking out long to a contest that we consistently lost and we had defenders (not just rich) who didn't manage to get a tackle in a game where the ball spent plenty of time in their zone.

Yeah it was a case of DeJa'Vu. We had seen this before and we had all hoped/ been convinced by the club's messaging that it had been addressed. Been working on defensive running all summer, Dunkley was going to ensure we aren't bullied, Ashcroft was ready to play big midfield minutes, Gunston would take ownership of the forward line, help it function properly, our forwards were ready to defend etc....

And......... none of that happened.

 

[p4p1]

Yeah I’m not sure they’d be overly happy with the AFL and the scheduling of this one. Will keep crowd numbers down and a lot of people will have one eye on what’s happening down the road anyway.

They’re pretty arrogant at HQ and what they think of other codes but I must admit tonight’s scheduling was sheer stupidity on their part.

The may potentially be trying to see how we go h2h against the other codes to see where they are at. It might be a short term loss but the information might be valuable.

 

[Thomasno]

So this from Fages' press conference yesterday grabbed my attention, and I quote:

"People talk about defence... I talk about 'we didn't win the ball, and we had to defend too much'. So in the end if you have to defend too much it'll break down. Any team will. So, for me the solution isn't what we were doing defensively, it was more about 'get your hands on the ball, boys'."

Does anyone else think this completely flies in the face of all the talk since the end of last season, about how we had to work on our defensive running and transition? I mean, what are we supposed to be?

We PLAY in a manner which lines up with what Fages said there yesterday - always have. In principle I don't have a problem with this; basically every premiership winning team bar Richmond has been great at winning stoppages.

But then what's all this talk about "oh we're going to get better at our team defence" and "we're gonna come back fitter and ready to cover more ground defensively"? I don't even have a problem with lining these statements up with Fages' comment from yesterday, EXCEPT for the noticeable fact that Port Adelaide physically smashed us man for man, talls and smalls alike, last Saturday. The way we have been physically conditioned matches the off- and pre-season talk, but to me it absolutely flies 100% in the face of Fages' comment yesterday.

So what are we? A contested ball behemoth? Or are we supposed to be transforming into this manic, chaotic setup who swarms the opposition's forward line, opening up space in front of us and smashing teams on the counter with our ball use? Or are we trying to be both at once? Is it even possible to be both at once?

By the way, if you think I'm absolutely full of it, I imagine there's a few more of us here going to the game tonight than the couple of us who went last Saturday. At any stage during the game: centre bounce, around the ground stoppage, in play, wherever, pick out ANY one on one contest and hand on heart work out which of the two blokes looks more physically imposing. Happy to be demonstrated to be wrong on this but I reckon you'll have a hard time finding any contest where our bloke looks bigger and stronger than his direct opponent.

My personal view, for what very little it's worth, is that we absolutely should be playing in a manner which lines up with Fages' comment yesterday. But then why on earth are we so slight of physique? I could cop it back in the 2020 Prelim when Geelong taught us a lesson, but now we have the 3rd oldest list in the comp. It doesn't fly any more.

Fagan: We Just Want to Respond

Chris Fagan's after redemption this week against Melbourne following an uncharacteristic performance in round 1.

www.lions.com.au

They go hand in hand mate. If you’re not putting on pressure and you’re not defensively running, you’re not going to get the ball much - which means the defence will have to defend a lot more than they should and then if just becomes a numbers game.

I can’t remember if it was that press conference or an earlier one this week, but Fagan basically insinuated that the way they played Saturday completely flew in the face of everything they trained for over the off season. Basically got scared and regressed to the old game plan and completely ignored the new game plan.

Would also explain why the newer guys (ie McKenna/Dunkley) looked better than the old guys because they didn’t have the old game plan to fall back on.

 

[Thomasno]

I think Bailey has probably come on as a small forward, but if we want/wanted him to be an inside mid, he is never going to be an elite one IMO. A couple of years ago I thought Bailey had overtaken Robbo as our #2 wing behind Clugg. He is/can be so dangerous up forward I do prefer that position for him. The issue IMO isn't so much that Bailey hasn't come on but rather that he doesn't work hard enough defensively and while you can portion some of the blame to him, the older more experienced forwards are not and have not set the standard or good example for working defensively.

Starce had come on IMO, he was probably the best general defender in the game for a short while but as others including I believe, yourself have pointed out, he did seem to regress a bit late last year. I don't think he has been given the chance to shine outside of his role because we don't currently have anyone else who could do that role as effectively. I am a big supporter of Starce being a defensive mid but until we find someone who can fill his defensive role I don't see the coaches giving him the chance in the middle that I personally feel he deserves.

I think we need to lock Bailey in at a half forward flank, he has the potential (and has shown enough) to be just as damaging as Toby Greene there. I’d stop faffing about with him in the middle and put him where he’s going to single handedly win us games

 

[Squizz89]

The may potentially be trying to see how we go h2h against the other codes to see where they are at. It might be a short term loss but the information might be valuable.

Yeah that’s fair although the game they’re going up against really isn’t the one you want to do to much comparison to. They’re going to get spanked in viewership. Genuinely all anyone in Brisbane has wanted to talk about all week is the local derby here. I’ve hardly seen a thing about the Lions in the media (not that unusual here but even less than normal), which after last week isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Thomasno]

Yeah that’s fair although the game they’re going up against really isn’t the one you want to do to much comparison too. They’re going to get spanked in viewership. Genuinely all anyone in Brisbane has wanted to talk about all week is the local derby here, and I’ve hardly seen a thing about the Lions in the media at all (not that unusual here but even less than normal),which after last week isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

To be fair I don’t follow NRL all outside of Origin, and I’ve been enamoured with the Dolphins and would absolutely be watching tonight if the lions weren’t on. It’s pretty exciting stuff watching a bunch of discarded “disappointing” players tear everyone a new one each week, some real Mighty Ducks stuff.

 

[Dalions]

 

[p4p1]

To be fair I don’t follow NRL all outside of Origin, and I’ve been enamoured with the Dolphins and would absolutely be watching tonight if the lions weren’t on. It’s pretty exciting stuff watching a bunch of discarded “disappointing” players tear everyone a new one each week, some real Mighty Ducks stuff.

I didn't know they were all 'rejects', I might have to watch that series on Stan now.

 

[KissKiss]

I think we need to lock Bailey in at a half forward flank, he has the potential (and has shown enough) to be just as damaging as Toby Greene there. I’d stop faffing about with him in the middle and put him where he’s going to single handedly win us games

Yeah its at the point where we have mucked around with him in too many positions but never stuck with any of them. We seem to try and throw him inside mid and outside. He doesnt seem to have the size or defensive running ability (desire?) to play either of those roles. We played him off the HBF years ago but then basically never again. His clear best has been between small forward and HFF but he hasnt come on as much as wanted.

By the end of the year I suspect he should push Linc out of his forward spot and needs a rocket to actually be more accountable. And if Kai develops he could put pressure on both of them.

 

[Grasshopper17]

They go hand in hand mate. If you’re not putting on pressure and you’re not defensively running, you’re not going to get the ball much - which means the defence will have to defend a lot more than they should and then if just becomes a numbers game.

I can’t remember if it was that press conference or an earlier one this week, but Fagan basically insinuated that the way they played Saturday completely flew in the face of everything they trained for over the off season. Basically got scared and regressed to the old game plan and completely ignored the new game plan.

Would also explain why the newer guys (ie McKenna/Dunkley) looked better than the old guys because they didn’t have the old game plan to fall back on.

Right. See I'm perfectly OK with this: wanting to be both. To me it comes back to this balance between on-ball pressure and behind-the-ball structure.

However my beef then is that we do not seem physically capable of exerting or sustaining on-ball pressure. We get knocked off the ball and miss tackles, which attracts other blokes to the same contest, leaving their original opponent free to be used on what has suddenly become "the outside".

Anyway, Fages also said they could have taken another 3 weeks to educate the lads on the game plan since Saturday. Time will tell I guess whether 6 days was long enough.



So maybe a few of our non-new players might have been confused by changes to the game plan? Perhaps this all goes hand in hand with work rate. After all, I'm sure many of us have been here plenty of times, even with our own boss, partners etc. We perceive someone saying to do one thing, then another time we perceive they said to do something different, we get confused and what do we do? We SHOULD really say something, like "I'm confused", but I reckon a LOT of the time we just throw our hands up and (myself included!) do nothing.

 

[notliondown]

So what are we? A contested ball behemoth? Or are we supposed to be transforming into this manic, chaotic setup who swarms the opposition's forward line, opening up space in front of us and smashing teams on the counter with our ball use? Or are we trying to be both at once? Is it even possible to be both at once?

Actually I think is 100% our problem... we don't really have a style that sets us apart anymore now that quick ball movement is a hallmark of the competition. Fages talks about contested possession but I don't really think we excel in that either.

What we are is an emotionally based, confidence team. When we are up and running we are brilliant. But if we can't get ourselves up we are in trouble. All of the talk this last week about effort and turning up highlights how fickle we really are.

What we need to find is a maturity and a consistency just to work hard all of the time. I thought by now with our core of younger players reaching the 75-100 game mark we would have developed the experience and level headedness to apply effort and pressure 100% of the time.

What we have to be is a team with a focus on working for each other no matter the circumstance.

 

[p4p1]

Right. See I'm perfectly OK with this: wanting to be both. To me it comes back to this balance between on-ball pressure and behind-the-ball structure.

However my beef then is that we do not seem physically capable of exerting or sustaining on-ball pressure. We get knocked off the ball and miss tackles, which attracts other blokes to the same contest, leaving their original opponent free to be used on what has suddenly become "the outside".

Anyway, Fages also said they could have taken another 3 weeks to educate the lads on the game plan since Saturday. Time will tell I guess whether 6 days was long enough.



So maybe a few of our non-new players might have been confused by changes to the game plan? Perhaps this all goes hand in hand with work rate. After all, I'm sure many of us have been here plenty of times, even with our own boss, partners etc. We perceive someone saying to do one thing, then another time we perceive they said to do something different, we get confused and what do we do? We SHOULD really say something, like "I'm confused", but I reckon a LOT of the time we just throw our hands up and (myself included!) do nothing.

I'm sure being an AFL player is harder than it has ever been, simply because players now spend a lot of the game not playing footy but doing running drills to guard space. It would have to take a lot of training, a lot of education and practice. It would probably be boring as batshit, especially for the maverick types whom you could argue is what most of our forward line is. Running into a patch of grass because that's where you need to be for your structure and plan to hold up is not the most motivating reason to run somewhere, throw players from the other team running into areas your teammates should be guarding but you're currently closer to, or closer to the player etc. I'm sure it is a ****ing nightmare half the time. Having said that, they are paid relatively well to do that so how much it may or may not suck to be doing what you wanted to be doing when you were a kid (actually playing footy) is not a valid excuse to not do what is expected of you.

 

[p4p1]

On another note, and I'm sure it's been bought up, has Harris' decline coincided with Cameron trying to elbow his head into the first row?

 

[M Malice]

Actually I think is 100% our problem... we don't really have a style that sets us apart anymore now that quick ball movement is a hallmark of the competition. Fages talks about contested possession but I don't really think we excel in that either.

What we are is an emotionally based, confidence team. When we are up and running we are brilliant. But if we can't get ourselves up we are in trouble. All of the talk this last week about effort and turning up highlights how fickle we really are.

What we need to find is a maturity and a consistency just to work hard all of the time. I thought by now with our core of younger players reaching the 75-100 game mark we would have developed the experience and level headedness to apply effort and pressure 100% of the time.

What we have to be is a team with a focus on working for each other no matter the circumstance.

Spot on.

 

[knaf]

Why is everyone so pessimistic? (note: I missed the game last week but were we really that bad? port at home is a tough job and perhaps they are very good this year)

The final score flattered us

 

[briztoon]

Before i'd change the players - i think a complete overhaul (keeing the same players) of the coaches would be my go. I mean the turnaround from McCrae w/o adding alot or even Hardwick (i know i said all coaches, but they removed everyone bar him) and even Longmire at Freo a year or 2 ago s been fantastic to watch and a real example of whats possible- i think in my limited understanding is that players are to comfortable and maybe a new fresh voice could change it - many examples in other world sports of successful sides unable to reach the top getting new coaches or managers and then winning. Beofre you start dismantling this team i think you have to try with new coaches and then if that person cant do anything in 2 years or it looks less likely, then move on players - but hopefully in a way like the Swans do it w/o really bottoming out.

I mentioned elsewhere, the FoxFooty podcast discussed our coaching situation, and to paraphrase, one of the co-hosts said they were talking to someone (didn’t say who) at the grand final last year about Brisbane’s coaching situation, and this person said that we can’t get any highly credentialed senior assistant coaches up to Brisbane and that Fagan has to do too much.


My main comment is that at the majority of training sessions I’ve been to, Fagan is rarely involved in the actual training, and spends most of his time walking laps, often away from the group, and looks deep in thought (sometimes he looks like the weight of the world is on his shoulders, and that was before the Hawks racism bombshell).

 

[briztoon]

We should get the Dockers or Eagles first this year for Deven Robertson.

lol seriously Dev’s value is at best a late third round pick.

 

[StevoJenkins]

We should get the Dockers or Eagles first this year for Deven Robertson.

Apparently, list management consider him invaluable.
Wonder if that will change coming into the end of the season.

Need to see him actually play inside. Swap Dev's wing spot with McCluggage.

 

[p4p1]

I mentioned elsewhere, the FoxFooty podcast discussed our coaching situation, and to paraphrase, one of the co-hosts said they were talking to someone (didn’t say who) at the grand final last year about Brisbane’s coaching situation, and this person said that we can’t get any highly credentialed senior assistant coaches up to Brisbane and that Fagan has to do too much.


My main comment is that at the majority of training sessions I’ve been to, Fagan is rarely involved in the actual training, and spends most of his time walking laps, often away from the group, and looks deep in thought (sometimes he looks like the weight of the world is on his shoulders, and that was before the Hawks racism bombshell).

It's a problem we face and unfortunately it is a problem that I believe teams in Tassie and NT would face as well.
The only way to fix it would be to allow clubs a larger cap to spend on coaches, which the vics would cry tears of blood about. If you have a Leigh Matthews or Allister Clarkson coaching up in QLD you have half a chance because assistants want to work under the best.

 

[mpal6]

Can't wait to see this place humming with a big win tonight.

We fluffed it badly last week but I have faith the players would rise to the occasion at the Gabba.

Go Lions !!!!

 

[Grasshopper17]

I'm sure being an AFL player is harder than it has ever been, simply because players now spend a lot of the game not playing footy but doing running drills to guard space. It would have to take a lot of training, a lot of education and practice. It would probably be boring as batshit, especially for the maverick types whom you could argue is what most of our forward line is. Running into a patch of grass because that's where you need to be for your structure and plan to hold up is not the most motivating reason to run somewhere, throw players from the other team running into areas your teammates should be guarding but you're currently closer to, or closer to the player etc. I'm sure it is a ******* nightmare half the time. Having said that, they are paid relatively well to do that so how much it may or may not suck to be doing what you wanted to be doing when you were a kid (actually playing footy) is not a valid excuse to not do what is expected of you.

Absolutely! This comes back to something David Parkin said 20 years ago when he was coaching Carlton... One day blokes are going to have to have pHD's to play this game etc, for the reasons you say. It is no longer enough to have more talent in your little finger than most people have in their entire bodies. You now also have to be relentlessly disciplined and be able to control your concentration. As well as being fit and brave as you've always needed to be, but probably even more so now.

Having been a guy with very little ability, it was always very easy for me to go "I can at least go and stand over there and guard space to stop the other team from doing X, Y and Z." But I also played with plenty of guys who despite knowing what was best for the team, simply couldn't help themselves when instinct kicked in and it become very much "see ball, get ball". This was at a (very) amateur level of course, but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine similar personality types being present at football clubs at any level, and bringing all those disparate personality types together to play as a cohesive team is one of, if not THE great challenge of coaching.