Review Round 8, 2023 - Carlton vs. Brisbane Lions

[JasRulz63]

Carlton have spent a lot of money +/- draft capital on flankers - Saad, Williams, Martin. There's nothing wrong with recruiting flankers, the issue is that they're similar in their strengths and weaknesses as each other and they're paying each one ~$700k each. Scott Clayton would be proud.

 

[M Malice]

Watched the game again this morning and if possible Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

looked even better, his tackling and gut running to get back in defence was superb.

Also we are definitely in better shape game style wise than anytime in the Chris Fagan era, everything flows from pressure footy ... just need luck with injuries come September and we are a massive chance at a flag this season.

I can never track down the stats and it could be just my biased perception but are we far and away the highest scoring team on turnover this season?

 

[JasRulz63]

I can never track down the stats and it could be just my biased perception but are we far and away the highest scoring team on turnover this season?

85 of the 100 points we scored on Friday night were from turnover which is a ridiculous proportion.

 

[Section 5]

85 of the 100 points we scored on Friday night were from turnover which is a ridiculous proportion.

I have no stats at all to back up my opinion on turnovers.
AFL coaches moved away from man on man to zoning to different degrees a long time ago.
Players still go man on man (stoppages etc) to a certain degree but in general play it is a zone of some sorts.

The way the game has evolved to year 2023 zoning off actually kills you more on turnovers.
The lower down the ladder you sit the worse it gets you.

Zoning helps good sides defend better when the ball is coming forward or switched in the normal manner.
However, no matter how good a side you are, turnovers at certain times will result in a goal going the other way.

The coach that comes up with better players defensive positioning when your side is attacking from defense/wing/center will be onto a winner.
At present good sides just rely on good defensive players taking intercept marks on turnovers.
This works only when the attacking sides disposal efficiency inside 50 is not up to scratch. Example a bottom 6 side or just a crap disposal.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I just dont understand why umps are the only ones in the whole AFL competiion / community are unaccountable and immune from being questioned or criticised?

The VFL level is even more deplorable and yet it is just the biggest elephant in the room after certain games and we have to pretend that things havent happened in games / that biases dont exist / that certain players and clubs are judged differently / why umps are so inconsistent, even within games compared to there collegaues - and yet we have walk on egg shells and just ignore it.

Its actually rather pathetic the protection they are afforded and why they arent answerable for so much patheticness.

The AFL will tell you it is because they need to encourage more people signing up to become umpires, but I’m not sure reducing accountability is the appropriate way to drive recruitment.

Imagine if other occupations that face recruitment challenges like police, nurses and teachers started saying “we need to protect them from so much scrutiny and accountability in order to ensure more people apply”.

The key for recruitment while maintaining standards is to keep positions accountable while offering improved pay and conditions. As long as the AFL shies away from making umpiring at the top level a full time profession, we will be stuck where we are now.

Abuse of umpires should never be tolerated, but I think coaches (after games) and commentators (during and after) should be able to constructively critique decisions. The cringeworthy silence by commentators after umpires make howlers just increases the frustration. The criticism should always be measured and acknowledge the fact that umpires are human and that it is a very hard game to officiate perfectly, but the silence and censorship is frustrating.

 

[buttermuffs]

I have no stats at all to back up my opinion on turnovers.
AFL coaches moved away from man on man to zoning to different degrees a long time ago.
Players still go man on man (stoppages etc) to a certain degree but in general play it is a zone of some sorts.

The way the game has evolved to year 2023 zoning off actually kills you more on turnovers.
The lower down the ladder you sit the worse it gets you.

Zoning helps good sides defend better when the ball is coming forward or switched in the normal manner.
However, no matter how good a side you are, turnovers at certain times will result in a goal going the other way.

The coach that comes up with better players defensive positioning when your side is attacking from defense/wing/center will be onto a winner.
At present good sides just rely on good defensive players taking intercept marks on turnovers.
This works only when the attacking sides disposal efficiency inside 50 is not up to scratch. Example a bottom 6 side or just a crap disposal.

We saw in 2016 and sometimes in 2017 just how bad zoning can affect poor teams. Our game against North this year also showed how much worse it can be for bottom teams.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[MSB ROYS]

 

[buttermuffs]

I just dont understand why umps are the only ones in the whole AFL competiion / community are unaccountable and immune from being questioned or criticised?

The VFL level is even more deplorable and yet it is just the biggest elephant in the room after certain games and we have to pretend that things havent happened in games / that biases dont exist / that certain players and clubs are judged differently / why umps are so inconsistent, even within games compared to there collegaues - and yet we have walk on egg shells and just ignore it.

Its actually rather pathetic the protection they are afforded and why they arent answerable for so much patheticness.

What kind of repercussions are you asking for? I’m not privy to the state of umpiring in the VFL but do you think there’s an abundance of quality umpires? I was told at the Collingwood game that for the QAFL a few weeks from then they were still after 10+ senior umpires to fill the slots for that weekend. The junior leagues in Brisbane are even worse. They all leave because of abuse. I feel like you aren’t privy to the internal process because from QAFL upwards there’s always recordings, a coach present and reviews after every game.

From my experience it’s always incredibly obvious that a large amount of people don’t actually know shit about how the rules are actually adjudicated. It leads to so many people crying about a lack of accountability when in reality they got it wrong themselves. I am not saying it’s perfect but it feels like when you tap about walking on eggshells around the umpiring it just sounds like you want to be mad at the umpiring while being oblivious that you contribute to the overall system of abuse they receive.

It’s not one bad apple that gives the abuse. Sure you might see someone assaulting an umpire but that’s not usually the consistent abuse they actually receive.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Section 5]

We saw in 2016 and sometimes in 2017 just how bad zoning can affect poor teams. Our game against North this year also showed how much worse it can be for bottom teams.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Definatly an issue for struggling teams
The thing is coaches of these teams want to bring their side up to the standard of the better teams that zone fairly well.
Thats how the game is played at present.
So, they think the only way to get better is to try and get their players to do the same.
Result is they get thrashed.
I would like to see a coach of the bottom 4 teams (even higher) do something different and the thrashings would be reduced.
You can adjust your game style as the team matures and gets better.

 

[MSB ROYS]

I have previous done quite a bit of umpiring and it's not as easy as some people think. Anyway, I have watched quite a few games over the last few weeks and I have been a little frustrated with the umpires' interpretation of dropping the ball, which differs from what I think it should be. However, I don't think that it's the umpires' fault as it must be the interpretation they are instructed to apply, as it seems to be every umpire.

Also, the number of throws many players are doing drives me nuts, but it is often really difficult to see in real time. The umpires would have to guess and then would be blamed if they got it wrong. Let's face it, deliberately throwing the ball is cheating. Training to throw it and using as a deliberate ploy is systemic cheating. Now, because it's successful, most teams will increasingly do it. Like serial head duckers and arm raisers, serial throwers should lose their benefit of the doubt.

 

[Sanchez365]

Couldn't agree more. In practice this looks like:

1. Removal of prior opportunity from the rule book - every time a player takes possession, one of 3 things will happen. They'll either dispose legally, dispose illegally (free kick) or hold the ball (free kick). Ball getting knocked out in the tackle is a grey area that I can see both sides of, but again, put it in the rule book and pay it as illegal disposal or call it play on.

2. Last touch out of bounds. Straightforward. Works well in the SANFL according to mates in Adelaide.

3. Free kick against any player who attempts to play at the ball on the ground. Will tidy up and condense into one rule the current absolute minefield which includes diving on the football, dragging in the football, push in the back, high contact, contact below the knees, and there are probably others. If you attempt to take possession whilst you are not supported by your feet (or at least one foot), free kick against. Works brilliantly in Gaelic footy, and accordingly, there's a great example from a couple of years ago of Jimmy Madden instinctively doing exactly what would need to be coached. I think it was the Geelong or Richmond game at the Gabba in 2021. Went to ground, got back to his feet and THEN contested the ball. Would also make the game a much better spectacle and improve player safety.

This is the way.

 

[Sanchez365]

85 of the 100 points we scored on Friday night were from turnover which is a ridiculous proportion.

Where did you get this info

 

[Sanchez365]

The AFL will tell you it is because they need to encourage more people signing up to become umpires, but I’m not sure reducing accountability is the appropriate way to drive recruitment.

Imagine if other occupations that face recruitment challenges like police, nurses and teachers started saying “we need to protect them from so much scrutiny and accountability in order to ensure more people apply”.

The key for recruitment while maintaining standards is to keep positions accountable while offering improved pay and conditions. As long as the AFL shies away from making umpiring at the top level a full time profession, we will be stuck where we are now.

Abuse of umpires should never be tolerated, but I think coaches (after games) and commentators (during and after) should be able to constructively critique decisions. The cringeworthy silence by commentators after umpires make howlers just increases the frustration. The criticism should always be measured and acknowledge the fact that umpires are human and that it is a very hard game to officiate perfectly, but the silence and censorship is frustrating.

I feel like this in conjunction with the changes that Grasshopper mentioned is the way to go.

It's bush league stuff that this hasn't been handled, for a game that's spending 250mil to build a stadium, they could easily in an "umpires academy" that runs, trains and then provides umpires for the different major competitions around the country.

It's one of the reasons I'm disappointed with the new AFL CEO appointment, probably just going to be more of the same from a guy that's learnt his stripes under Demetrio and McLachlan

 

[Hollow Knight]

I feel like this in conjunction with the changes that Grasshopper mentioned is the way to go.

It's bush league stuff that this hasn't been handled, for a game that's spending 250mil to build a stadium, they could easily in an "umpires academy" that runs, trains and then provides umpires for the different major competitions around the country.

It's one of the reasons I'm disappointed with the new AFL CEO appointment, probably just going to be more of the same from a guy that's learnt his stripes under Demetrio and McLachlan

They'll just get their mates at KPMG to undertake an expensive umpiring review designed to deliver findings that they are doing everything right.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Couldn't agree more. In practice this looks like:

1. Removal of prior opportunity from the rule book - every time a player takes possession, one of 3 things will happen. They'll either dispose legally, dispose illegally (free kick) or hold the ball (free kick). Ball getting knocked out in the tackle is a grey area that I can see both sides of, but again, put it in the rule book and pay it as illegal disposal or call it play on.

2. Last touch out of bounds. Straightforward. Works well in the SANFL according to mates in Adelaide.

3. Free kick against any player who attempts to play at the ball on the ground. Will tidy up and condense into one rule the current absolute minefield which includes diving on the football, dragging in the football, push in the back, high contact, contact below the knees, and there are probably others. If you attempt to take possession whilst you are not supported by your feet (or at least one foot), free kick against. Works brilliantly in Gaelic footy, and accordingly, there's a great example from a couple of years ago of Jimmy Madden instinctively doing exactly what would need to be coached. I think it was the Geelong or Richmond game at the Gabba in 2021. Went to ground, got back to his feet and THEN contested the ball. Would also make the game a much better spectacle and improve player safety.

Intrigued by 2 & 3.

1 makes me wonder if it fundamentally disincentivises the act of winning the ball, encouraging players to let their opponent grab it then immediately tackle.

 

[scoman]

Really exciting to see Payne developing into a mainstay in defence. Seems calm enough and with his size, strength and speed he has the attributes to match even the most athletic key forwards, not to mention the brutes. Big win for us after we lost Adams.

 

[Sanchez365]

Intrigued by 2 & 3.

1 makes me wonder if it fundamentally disincentivises the act of winning the ball, encouraging players to let their opponent grab it then immediately tackle.

I think 3 is probably a bit too drastic, but absolutely need to remove sliding into the contest in anyways like Dangerfield does. That act of running and sliding on your knees hips into players is ****ed.

Deliberate OOB imo is less of a problem because at least it's kind of easy to pick. My main concern would be around losing the throw in, but I guess if players knew if they took the ball out it was a turnover, they just wouldn't run it out and there would be ball ups instead. So maybe not a net loss.

The rules around holding the ball are clearly the no1 problem the AFL faces. It's clearly swung too far against the tackler being rewarded, where it's almost impossible to win a free kick of the ball comes out. Personally I feel like they could work their way down to those rules by simplifying the idea of Prior Opportunity into something like "possession of the ball for 2 seconds without being legally tackled". Just remove the grey area of it, and get umps to start counting to 2 once a player takes possession. After those 2 seconds, you must legally dispose of the ball otherwise it's a free kick. That also includes you getting tackled to ground and the ball spilling out, or trying to dispose of it and not doing so correctly.

Like the changes to make it more "free flowing" which is where all these stupid clauses around holding the ball have come from haven't even stopped the scrums or repeat stoppages. The main effect on that has been the 6-6-6 and stand rule, which tbh are both pretty good additions. So let's move HTB back to what it was,

It just seems so simple to me to fix this that I cannot fathom why it hasn't been changed yet. What am I missing? Is it just because the AFL are a bunch of privileged white males who's egos are too fragile to say "we got it wrong let's try something else?"

 

[martinson]

Umpires have been abused ever since I've been going to footy matches. It was accepted as a rite of passage for umps that they were going to cop it every time the went out there.

Two things have happened since those times. This generations perception of their rights , the way they are educated from an early age now ,means that they're far more sensitive to criticism. Not saying that's a bad thing.

Secondly the media and coverage of games mean that any mistakes are seen ,replayed and magnified to be some sort of disaster. SM as we know instigates a pile on of epic proportions sometimes and any umpire reading it would have to have a really thick skin not to be affected.

The bottom line is that we can't get enough umpires across Aussie rules. The AFL is correct in clamping down on abuse/criticism of umps to try to stem this problem and that starts with the TV commentators who as we know love to stir up a maelstrom for personal publicity and ratings.

Likewise the AFL needs to make the recruitment and conditions more professional with a career path.

I've got to be honest ,I have a little personal melt over the umps just about every week. I think it's typical of most supporters that they think the umps have something personal against their club. Don't see that changing any time soon.

I think 3 is probably a bit too drastic, but absolutely need to remove sliding into the contest in anyways like Dangerfield does. That act of running and sliding on your knees hips into players is ****ed.

Deliberate OOB imo is less of a problem because at least it's kind of easy to pick. My main concern would be around losing the throw in, but I guess if players knew if they took the ball out it was a turnover, they just wouldn't run it out and there would be ball ups instead. So maybe not a net loss.

The rules around holding the ball are clearly the no1 problem the AFL faces. It's clearly swung too far against the tackler being rewarded, where it's almost impossible to win a free kick of the ball comes out. Personally I feel like they could work their way down to those rules by simplifying the idea of Prior Opportunity into something like "possession of the ball for 2 seconds without being legally tackled". Just remove the grey area of it, and get umps to start counting to 2 once a player takes possession. After those 2 seconds, you must legally dispose of the ball otherwise it's a free kick. That also includes you getting tackled to ground and the ball spilling out, or trying to dispose of it and not doing so correctly.

Like the changes to make it more "free flowing" which is where all these stupid clauses around holding the ball have come from haven't even stopped the scrums or repeat stoppages. The main effect on that has been the 6-6-6 and stand rule, which tbh are both pretty good additions. So let's move HTB back to what it was,

It just seems so simple to me to fix this that I cannot fathom why it hasn't been changed yet. What am I missing? Is it just because the AFL are a bunch of privileged white males who's egos are too fragile to say "we got it wrong let's try something else?"

Are they all white ? And privileged ? Do you think that affects their decision making on how to adjudicate footy rules ? I know their egos are a bit fragile.

 

[M Malice]

IMO if you take possession of the ball you must dispose of the ball legally by hand or foot.

If you had prior opportunity and been tackled, free against > If you drop the ball it is a free against... no such thing as this bullcrap ball fell out in the tackle stuff... genuine attempt shite.

So many players take possession of the ball feel the tackle and then drop the ball deliberately, that should be a free kick against ie. incorrect disposal. A lot of the time it goes the other way in that situation and the tackler gets penalised for holding on too long.
_________________________

If no prior it's a ball up Unless the ball spills out to the advantage of the tacklers team, to advantage of team in possession ball up.

 

[martinson]

IMO if you take possession of the ball you must dispose of the ball legally by hand or foot.

If you had prior opportunity and been tackled, free against > If you drop the ball it is a free against... no such thing as this bullcrap ball fell out in the tackle stuff... genuine attempt shite.

So many players take possession of the ball feel the tackle and then drop the ball deliberately, that should be a free kick against ie. incorrect disposal. A lot of the time it goes the other way in that situation and the tackler gets penalised for holding on too long.
_________________________

If no prior it's a ball up Unless the ball spills out to the advantage of the tacklers team, to advantage of team in possession ball up.

The rules are perfectly clear . If you get tackled you need to make a serious and immediate attempt to dispose of the ball by hand or foot otherwise you get penalised.

Ever since the AFL decided they were going to put their own interpretations on everything no one knows what the rules are any more.

 

[Hollow Knight]

The rules are perfectly clear . If you get tackled you need to make a serious and immediate attempt to dispose of the ball by hand or foot otherwise you get penalised.

Ever since the AFL decided they were going to put their own interpretations on everything no one knows what the rules are any more.

Just change the rule book to "It's Mabo... it's the vibe of the thing..."

 

[M Malice]

The rules are perfectly clear . If you get tackled you need to make a serious and immediate attempt to dispose of the ball by hand or foot otherwise you get penalised.

Ever since the AFL decided they were going to put their own interpretations on everything no one knows what the rules are any more.

Too many of our rules are open to the interpretation of the umpire, need to get as much black and white into the decisions as possible.

 

[Tom14]

Not sure I agree with everything you said.

I don't understand how they overcapitalised selecting McKay at pick 10 and Curnow at pick 12 in 2015. It's not like they traded multiple first round draft picks across a couple of drafts to get them.

Certainly overspent adding the likes of Martin and Williams.

Certainly agree that their list gets very ordinary after the top 12 to 15 players. And a lot of that has to do with poor trading and poor drafting.

I also believe their list is set up to play a game style from from a decade ago, to many big bodies inside and not enough runners. And watching last night, they didn't work hard enough off the ball, and that's on the players.

What is killing them really is botching the 2017 draft - Dow and O'Brien as top 10 picks is brutal given the other players they could have selected.

 

[Elixuh]

Armchair experts program with Georgie Parker, some of her thoughts paraphrased post game:

“I still don’t rate Brisbane”

(Then reels off who we have beaten including Melbourne and Collingwood)

“Maybe it’s because Cameron’s kicked 26, Danihers kicked 18, Hipwoods kicked 13 and Baileys kicked 11”
“You can’t have your small forwards kicking more than your big forwards”

A team with a regular spread of goal kickers just steamrolled a team that relies heavily on 1-2.
Averaging almost the most goals per game as a team.

So Cameron’s on track for 70
Daniher 60+, Eric 40+ with 2-3 on track for 30+ potentially.

A-Grade idiot, stick to IG.

All that likely tells you is that 99% of their audience is from Vic.

 

[M Malice]

What is killing them really is botching the 2017 draft - Dow and O'Brien as top 10 picks is brutal given the other players they could have selected.

Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich and Payne as an academy selection was a great 2017 draft for us... I also liked our other draft night selection at the time ie. Toby Wooller, alas didn't work out for him.

Connor Ballenden also in that draft but always seemed too soft for AFL footy.